More Wisdom On Getting Into The Game

detieennui32, already referenced once here, left an absolute knockout comment at Private Man’s post Mom Was Wrong – A Personal Narrative (my comments in italics).

No one’s going to see this comment, but: Thanks for this, PrivateMan. I can really relate. I grew up in a house with an overbearing mom and a doormat dad. Mom wore the pants, administered the discipline and kicked the ass. Dad hated his job, was already beaten down by life at age 34, and just did his best to get through life rather than live it. All I heard was “be nice, be yourself, and keep it in your pants.”

[I find it interesting how a significant crop of modern mothers exalt in encouraging sluttitude in their daughters, while simultaneously teaching their boys to be toothless betas.]

I worked hard to ask girls for dates. If it didn’t work in my small town, I looked at the next town over. I asked. I approached, but always timidly, tentatively and afraid. Good for a few pity dates and feels, but that’s about it. If a girl didn’t want me, I went omega and chased, begged, and pleaded with her to take me back. That was high school. In college: if I broke up, I’d have second thoughts. I was losing my hair [link] and thought girls would not like me. So with one, I chased her until she got sick of me, and finally cut me off for good. I thought no one would ever love me ever again. [Oneitis is truly an emotionally debilitating disease.]

What I should have been taught was:

1. Approach and ask. If they want to get to know you, look for IOIs like touching, talking, smiling, laughing, and her going out of her way to see you.

[No IOIs within five minutes = eject. Less than three within 20-30 minutes = eject. Plant fields that can yield a harvest.]

2. If she’s not interested, walk away and do your best not to care at all.

[Departing with aplomb is an alpha move, shows confidence in your ability to get another girl. If it’s a pyrotechnic rejection, all the more reason to “be the bigger man” (I got an email that said that once, but it turned out to be spam).]

3. Don’t pedestal. Don’t chase so hard. Don’t call the next day. Don’t give so many gifts. Don’t drop tons of cash on her. A girl who expects these things is unworthy. Don’t walk away. Run away as fast as you can..

[Wanting to have nice things is one thing…demanding tribute because she has a vagina is another entirely.]

4. Understand the rationalization hamster. When if comes to relationships and dating, girls are incapable of rational thought and decisionmaking.

5. A girl has no idea why she’s attracted or not attracted to you.

[4/5: women can be rational, but once the hormones start flowing don’t expect her big head to do the deciding. But nature and society both insist on concealment as a female mating strategy, so get used to words that don’t mean what they appear to.]

6. You will get rejected. A lot. That’s how it is. It will not kill you. [Rejection’s not fun, but it will be manageable if you avoid one-itis or going after bad bets.]

7. Worthy girl: relatively chaste, demure, feminine, and pleasant.

8. Unworthy girl: sarcastic, caustic, unpleasant, entitled, demanding, career first, rationalizes everything.

[7/8: Gotta qualify your mate. Career or no, don’t be satisfied with a woman who doesn’t make your life better when you two are together. The “instant spark” mantra is silly, but there needs to be a natural vibe of enjoyment between you two.]

9. Never take dating or relationship advice from a woman. Always seek advice from a man.

[And a man with a track record of success. Sounds sexist but guys really need to heed this. Nine times out of ten, you’ll get either projection (how would I act to a guy in that situation?) or hamsterwheeling from a woman. Or she’ll tell you what you want to hear because she wants to get wrapped up in a third-party romantic drama. It’s really a collective extension of #5.]


Filed under beta guide

59 responses to “More Wisdom On Getting Into The Game

  1. Mister Lettuce

    Wow, great stuff, detieennui32. I appreciate the advice you’ve given here, as well as in previous comments to me.

    So, you’re married. How did you meet your wife?

  2. Lettuce is blogging now? Awesome.

  3. Mister Lettuce

    Well, giving it a whirl.

  4. OffTheCuff

    Deti is on a roll with the killer comments.

  5. Noeleve

    “Never take dating or relationship advice from a woman. Always seek advice from a man. [And a man with a track record of success. Sounds sexist but guys really need to heed this…” – So Badger, interesting question then, if guys shouldn’t take advice from women, and women generally shouldn’t take advice from women (with a few exceptions to the rule like grep and Susan Walsh)… wonder why it is that men have the market cornered on good advice?

  6. “wonder why it is that men have the market cornered on good advice?”

    I’ve already explained woman-to-man advice. As for woman-to-woman, two words: obligated dishonesty. Susan and Haley, among others, have stated it’s axiomatic in social groups that a woman must never criticize another woman to her face, even if it’s exactly what she needs to hear. Women are socially disallowed from communicating effectively with other women.

  7. Noeleve

    …so do you think, in theory, if you removed the social block women would be roughly as able to give good advice to women (and I’m not talking about freak outliers like Susan and Haley :) )? Because I don’t know a single woman at work or any aunts etc that I think is likely to have a solid answer… in fact I imagine if I took a poll at work on a topic the distribution of answers would barely even cluster :). Plus there are all kinds of womens books/magazines written by women without good advice. I’m just saying, I’d go to a guy for guy advice and guys go to guys for girl advice… I have a theory about it, but just curious what you thought

  8. detinennui32

    Mr Lettuce:
    Met my wife when I was 26 – I had just let a girl go. My wife’s dad and I were acquainted and he introduced us. She had just come off a bad relationship.

    A couple of things about us: Note the preselection. Her dad selected me. There’s lots to be said for this. I was beta. So, so beta. Was beta when we married. But I had a little game and tried it – and we hit it off. I truly did not care whether she liked me or not. By her own history she was a bit of a carousel rider and had been burned. She was also looking to get married – she had just turned 30, former rider, you know the story. (Guys- 30 is a really tough age for women. They have a very hard time with turning 30, whether married or not.)

    It really is true – women start to lose that lovin’ feeling when the alpha traits of confidence and poise start wearing off, and life starts happening. That’s why I had to step it up. (1) lead in the bedroom. Initiate sex. (2) insist on leading. She wants you to lead her. You decide where your dates will be, what you will do and how long they will last. You also should end the first few dates. On our first few dates we had lunch or drinks. Not coffee. Get her lubed up and filled up, not caffeined up. (3) learn to tell her no. Learn to say “we’re not going to do that” or “we’re not going to take that course of action”.

    (4) when you’re married, and you’ve done something wrong, apologize. Say “I’m sorry”. Once. And then never talk about it again and never let her bring it back up again. Do not apologize if you know you have not done something wrong. If she was offended by something you said or did, but it was not wrong, say “I’m sorry you were offended/hurt/insulted”. Do not acknowledge you did something wrong. (By the way, the rule is different for dates or girlfriends. You should be even less liberal with apologies.)

    (5) dates that turn into LTRs: she will get emotional. You must be prepared for this. She’ll cry, or yell, or throw a fit for no reason, or for reasons that she can’t articulate. Let her cry. Let her say what she has to say. Hold her, hug her and kiss her. For God’s sake, do not talk. Do not try to figure it out. Do not try to tease out of her what is going on. Do not try to be her therapist. Logic, reason and thought simply have no place here because she is not bringing them to bear, and probably cannot bring them to bear. This is not a criticism of women. It is just the way almost all of them are.

    My wife has told me point blank she feels safer and more secure when she has a leader, not one who looks to her for approval for everything.

  9. detinennui32

    Other things men should know:
    1. Looking for and dating women becomes much easier once you understand that human beings have hard wiring that cannot be undone or successfully rationalized away. The purpose of this hard wiring is to “be fruitful and multiply”. Men look for physically attractive women who can bear children. Hence the search for young, beautiful women with things like the 0.7 waist to hip ratio, healthy looking skin, hair and teeth, slender build, etc. You don’t consciously know why you like that, but you do, and you are irresistibly drawn to it.

    Women look for men who look like they can father lots of children. They want the man with the best genes to father their babies (hence the female tendency toward hypergamy until and unless that tendency is restrained). Women search in today’s SMP for men who have confidence, presentation, and poise. Why do women look for this? The female hindbrain wants a man who looks like he can make the babies, get the stuff the babies need, and be less likely to get killed while doing it. Today, that translates to a man who looks like he has his act together, has a little money, has done a little something with his life, and doesn’t need a woman.

    You have to have made a little something of yourself. Have a job. Be moving up or at least trying to. Don’t play video games all the time. And don’t care so much and don’t look so hard for a woman.

    2. Social constructs and religious belief don’t supplant the hardwiring. Haley or one of her commenters said something like this: Christianity does not rewrite the biological code; it simply places a layer of restraint over it. This means the hardwiring is in everyone and it can’t be changed. That goes for Christian and religious girls too.

    3. All of this gets much easier to understand once you take the red pill.

    4. Someone else said this but it bears repeating and paraphrasing:
    Roissy, Badger and AlphaGamePlan to get ’em.
    MarriedManSexLife to keep ’em.

    5. After you get in the LTR or marriage, she still wants the alpha who made her tingle way back when. If you don’t give it to her, she’ll either stay with you in misery or start looking for someone else to tingle her. Either way, you will then be miserable (and probably without half your money). You can’t slack off. You still have to lead, decide, and say no. You still have to date her. You still have to alpha up.

  10. detinennui32

    And more:
    6. For guys starting out: if you’re looking to date and have some fun, you can go for the low hanging fruit:
    –Single moms
    –women 30 and over (never married or divorced)
    –generously proportioned women

    It’s crass, I know, but many of these women crave male company. Most are not LTR or marriage material but they can build up your confidence. I include the last category because my tastes run to the larger ladies. They tend to get overlooked nowadays, and they love attention.

    Under only the rarest of circumstances is a single mom or a divorced woman LTR or marriage material. Be very careful here. Almost all of them have some serious issues.

    A never married woman coming up on 30 or past it is probably either a former carousel rider or a career firster. Caution here. All she can hear is her biological clock roaring in her ears. Some carousel riders have figured it out and want off. You still have to play up the alpha, not beta, even though she’s looking for a beta provider.

    The larger ladies are glad for the attention. Treat them kindly, but firmly. They have issues too and they’ll pop up soon enough. Dispense with ones who are clingy or needy. Or start seeing them less. They’ll get the picture.

    7. DO NOT spend lots of money on dating them when you start out. If you go on a trip together, she pays her way and you pay yours.

    8. Younger, hotter women need good tight game (that I was almost never capable of). older but still hot need moderate game. Single moms need less game. Over 30 need even less. Larger ladies need almost no game. For them you really can just “be nice, be yourself”.

    9. Women hate timid, fearful, weak, indecisive men. And they can see those behaviors a mile away. Their hindbrain says “he can’t protect me, he’ll run away when the going gets tough, he’ll get killed while trying to get the stuff I need, and he can’t make babies”. They instinctively recoil from it. Don’t be those guys.

    10. Women vastly overvalue themselves and think they are hotter or more valuable than they really are. They have a culture and media screaming in their ears: career first, you can have it all, you deserve an alpha 10 every time, you can wait til you’re 30 or 40 to get married and have kids. Some women honestly believe that men will find their careers, salaries, or life achievements attractive.

    11. What makes this even harder for men is that we vastly undervalue ourselves and think that we are much less attractive than we really are. We have a culture and media screaming at us that we’re unnecessary, stupid, useless appendages; that women are entitled to our money and resources; that we need to think like and be like women to get them to be with us and marry us; and that women and men are exactly the same except for our genitalia.

    12. So we need to reframe it: I am the prize. My value to a woman is established. She has to prove her value and worth to me. You dance to my tune; I won’t dance to yours. If she cannot or will not do that, and still expects me to jump through her hoops, then no. (Note this does not mean you will get women lining up to bed you. It does mean that your attitude has changed to one of confidence, not timidity.)

  11. detinennui32

    Let me add another thing:

    Be honest about your SMV. I’m about a 6 overall. I’m not much to look at but what I don’t have I make up for in attitude and socioeconomic status.

    I dated mostly 4s, 5s and 6s. In college I dated a couple of 8s but didn’t have the game to keep them. I could never pull a 9 or a 10 and really did not even try. My wife’s a 7. My LTR before her was a 4 and before her was an 7.5, before that was a 4 (5 on a good day).

    Don’t waste time on trying to pull women out of your league unless your game is stepped up and tight.

  12. detinennui32

    On oneitis: I wish I had been taught this. I made every single one of these mistakes.

    If your LTR or GF is breaking up for whatever reason, you had a date or two and she isn’t interested, she doesn’t want to see you anymore, she thinks you’re a cad or is bored or thinks you treat her badly:

    Whatever happens, do not be afraid. Do not fear. You will not be alone unless you want to be alone, or you decide to take up expert level World of Warcraft.

    If it’s a couple of dates and she doesn’t want to go out again, the best response is no response or as little as possible. Let it go and put it out of your mind.

    If it’s an LTR: If you don’t want to see her anymore, tell her you don’t want to see her anymore. She’ll be hurt, but she will be OK. And then walk away and don’t call her again. You don’t owe an explanation. This is the one time the hamster wants reasons and logic. She wants you to help the hamster “make sense” of it all. She’ll say “Why”? the response is “because I don’t want this anymore.” “But WHY??!!” “because I just don’t.”

    Saying anything more is divulging to her things that are none of her business. “You met someone else, didn’t you?” Don’t respond. It’s no longer her business. You’re being truthful – you’re breaking up with her because you don’t want to be with her anymore. You don’t need to say anything else. So don’t.

    If she doesn’t want to see you anymore, hear her out, then let her walk. Above all, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING. Do not show your emotions. You might be hurt, bewildered, even really devastated. It does not matter. Now is not the time for you to get emotional. Do not chase her. Do not beg her to stay with you. Do not plead with her for one more chance. Do not even ask her why. Do not call her. Do not try to see her. Do not ask anyone how, what or who she is doing. Put her out of your mind as much as you can. Delete and block her on social networking sites (if you waste time on them, which I don’t recommend).

    If you find out she’s drifting away, or even seeing someone else, let her drift and let her go.

    Your remedy is to get back in the game as soon as you can, and after you do a brief post-mortem. (BRIEF post mortem. This should take a few minutes, not days or weeks. If you are still turning this over in your mind a year later, something is very, very wrong.) First, you will not die. You will meet someone else eventually. Then ask yourself if you did anything wrong, If not, then she left you for her own reasons. If so, what did you do wrong? Beta? Oneitis? Not leading her? Too much approval seeking? Did you pedestalize her? Did you let her snowflake you into entitlement hell? Did you listen to the hamster? Did you try to reason with or argue with the hamster? Did you let her emotions manipulate you? Did you get mad at her for flaking? Did you play by her rules all the time? Did you play into her frame too much?
    Badger, thanks for letting me put this stuff here. Hopefully my experiences will help someone out there.

    Your humble servant,

  13. Thanks for the linkage.

    detinennui32 has some incredibly useful things to say and are put quite succinctly.

    I may take his comments here and make it some sort of sticky on my blog.

  14. Mister Lettuce

    All great advice detinennui.

  15. detinennui32

    I wonder if a manosphere glossary might be helpful. I had a hard time pucking up some of these:
    1. PUA: pick up artist

    2. rationalization hamster: that part of the female brain that creates ex post facto reasons for a woman’s irrational or emotional behavior so as to make the conduct appear reasonable to herself and others. This part of the brain can literally rationalize anything a woman thinks, says or does. Derived from the visual of a small hamster running at full speed on its exercise wheel — spinning like mad, but ultimately going nowhere.

    3. entitlement monkey: that part of the female brain that convinces the rest of the brain that the woman must have something or someone, and is entitled to something or someone merely because of her gender.

    4. LJBF: let’s just be friends. Every man has heard this or some variation from a woman he’s attracted to, but she’s not attracted to him. She does not really want to be his friends; the statement is merely a soft “I have no interest in you whatsoever.”

    5. IOI: indicator(s) of interest. Nonverbal demonstrations of a woman’s interest in a man. Examples: touching, engaged in conversation, animated talking, fiddling with hair, titling chin downward and breaking eye contact momentarily, going out of her way to see you or talk to you.

    6. IOD: indicator(s) of disinterest. Nonverbal demonstrations that a woman is not interested in a man. Examples: we all know them.

    7. AMOG: alpha male of the group. In any group of men anywhere, the man who is the most confident, most poised, with the greatest presence and command of the situation. In every gruop of men, there is always an AMOG.

    8. Beta orbiter(s): men who surround, befriend or hang out with attractive women. Some are her true friends. Some have been LJBF’d and hang around her in the hopes that she will develop an interest in them.

    9. Carousel (also alpha carousel or cock carousel, riding the carousel): Refers to women, usually starting in their late teens and early 20s, having sex with a series of alpha males but never sercuring commitment from one; flitting from one alpha to another in the hopes of securing commitment from one. This can (and usually does) go on for several years. Usually ends with the woman hitting the wall (see next definition).

    10. The wall (also hitting the wall): the phenomenon in which a woman reaches the end of the highest point of her sexual market value. Usually happens to a woman in her late 20s or early 30s. Some reach it in the early 20s, others in their 40s. Usually marked by signs of aging and the inability to attract alpha males as they used to.

    11. SWPL: Stuff white people like. Not really sure what this refers to, other than perhaps a complete obsession with trash pop culture.

    12. Kino: the light touching usually associated with PUA action. Also works well with wives and girlfriends. Very effective on women after IOIs are given. Short for kinesthetics.

  16. detinennui32

    13. frame/reframe: One’s point of view or outlook on life, an issue, or a topic of conversation. The man should seek to control the frame. This is used to deflect irrelevant, irrational or useless points of view, or unfavorable points of view or outlooks.

    14. Shit test (also fitness test or, simply, test): a statement or behavior in which a woman challenges a man in some way. She does this to see if he can stand up to her, pass the test and display his alpha bona fides.

    15. DHV: display of higher value.

    16. DLV: display of lower value.

    17. Peacock (or peacocking): refers to a man’s dress, accessories and grooming in an effort to show his best physical appearance.

    18. Cockblock: anything that prevents the man from approaching, asking or chatting up a woman. Usually a woman’s friends or beta orbiters.

  17. detinennui32

    19. Attention whore: A woman (less often, a man) who dresses or acts in certain manners so as to call attention to oneself. Usually done in a loud, crass, or overly dramatic manner. Example 1: posting photos of oneself on social networking sites showing various party activities. Ecample 2: loud, promiscuou behavior in social settings.

  18. detinennui32

    20. Flake/flaking: Displays of indecisiveness. Usually associated with a woman’s noncommitment to a date, or standing up a man at a date.

    21. Snowflake/princess: A woman who believes she is unique, different and special with regard to dating and relationships. a. Esp. refers to women who demand and expect special treatment, princess treatment, pedestalization, gifts, nights out, meals, trips, and other demonstrations of commitment and tribute from men they date. Usually consists of demands and expectations that the man spend large amounts of money or resources on her and large amounts of time with her to the detriment of other aspects of his life. Can also refer to women who demand the above demonstrations in exchange for sex. b. can also refer to women who believe they can change the alpha and persuade him to commit, because “I’m not like the other girls he’s dated” or “I’m special”. Every woman believes she is entitled to princess treatment at some point.

    22. Pedestal/pedestalization: Refers to a man placing his woman or women in general above himself; making his woman or women the most important aspect of his life; and conforming his life, speech, conduct, work, hobbies, friends and thought patterns so as to please, appease or obtain the approval of his woman or women in general. Possibly the most beta of male behaviors as it constitutes complete male subordination. Women outwardly profess to seek this male behavior but secretly loathe it because it is so beta.

    23. NAWALT: acronym for “not all women are like that”. Often used to explain away female behavior by explaining that not all women act that way/believe that/do that/say that. (See rationalization hamster.)

    24. NAMALT: acronym for “not all men are like that”. Often used to explain away male behavior by explaining that not all men act that way/believe that/do that/say that. See NAWALT.

    25. Push/pull: the act of making moves on a woman, engaging in physical contact such as kissing, or showing IOIs (i.e. “push”), then retracting somewhat or stopping the moves or contact (i.e. “pull” or “pull back”). Used to create anticipation and to avoid creating too much intimacy too fast before mutual attraction is established.

  19. detinennui32

    26. Friend zone: the place a man goes in a woman’s mind after she has LJBF’d him. Once a man is sent to a woman’s friend zone, it is almost impossible to leave. After she says LJBF, the rationalization hamster does the rest nonverbally. The woman and the friend zone man are not really friends. He mignt leave and have no further contact with her, or become a beta orbiter, or emotional tampon. (See LJBF, rationalization hamster, beta orbiter, emotional tampon)

    27. Emotional tampon: a woman’s friend (sometimes a man or best boy-buddy) whom she cries to, spills her emotions upon, and works out her frustrations upon. If the emotional tampon is a man, he is always an LJBF or a beta orbiter who is secretly in love with the woman and/or whose advances were rejected in the past. Examples: Disney or Lifetime fantasy movies in which the protagonist has a best boy-buddy who loves her from afar, who dutifully absorbs her emotional outbursts, and provides the shoulder to cry on when the alpha leaves her for the hot cheerleader or when she doesn’t get elected student council president. The protegonist, of course, is completely clueless about the boy buddy loving her until the end of the movie and resolution of all the conflicts, at which point she realizes that her soulmate was right in front of her all along, and they ride off into the sunset happily ever after.

  20. detinennui32

    28. Status whore: a woman (sometimes a man) who displays or talks about status symbols in an extreme manner as evidence of attractiveness or desirability. Esp. a woman who places high value on acquisition of material goods, esp. clothes, shoes and accessories at extreme expense. Usually involves wearing/using extremely expensive clothing or accessories and telling all who will listen about them, their cost and where they were purchased; or boasting about his/her high salaried or prestigious or high powered job/career/educational program. Known to spend money on items far out of proportion to their usefulness or value (i.e. $1,000 for a purse or handbag). Known to drop names of celebrities/famous people/prominent professionals s/he knows, has met, has partied with, or has worked with or worked for. (NB: Status whoring is not to be confused with peacocking. Also, a woman who is doing her best to improve her physical appearance and her life while wearing good quality, flattering, attractive clothing is not a status whore.)

  21. The hits just keep coming!

  22. detinennui32

    Just want to help, Privateman.

    29. AFC: average frustrated chump. a. A beta in the midst of a dry spell.

    b. A man who has never learned game.

    c. A beta who tries repeatedly and to no avail to attract women by implementing the completely wrongheaded and useless advice his mother, his sisters, other women, advice columns, or other beta men gave him, the advice never works, and he does not understand why because after all, he got this advice from people who should know what women want, but he continues in the hopes that he will succeed someday, despite repeatedly doing the same things, making the same mistakes, and failing in the same ways.

    d. A beta who has infrequent success with women due to not caring, not trying, being cocky/funny or showing boldness, but then can never figure out what he did right because he doesn’t even know he was running game on the woman and it worked. He invariably makes the woman the center of his world overnight, pedestalizes or engages in some other beta behavior, causing her to LJBF him within 3 months, and he reverts to definition c.

    30. AMC: average married chump. A married man who was alpha enough to get a wife, but then began displaying beta behaviors esp. pedestalization, overly frequest displays of affection, PDA, fear of angering her, fear that she will divorce him, or failure to use push/pull, kino and decisiveness/ leadership. This leads to the wife’s loss of sexual interest in her husband. Sometimes these marriages are composed of beta provider and former carousel rider, in which husband needs to alpha up quickly. Remedy for AMC is for the husband to recall and implement the alpha behaviors that caused her to be attracted to him at the beginning, and gradually introduce and permanently integrate more alpha behaviors into the marriage.

    31. Mangina: A man who subscribes to the tenets of feminism, rejects the tenets of game and rejects the truths of male and female attraction.

    32. White knight (also white knighting): a. A man who defends feminists or feminism, or who excuses, ignores or attempts to explain away the destructive forces and effects of feminism on society, culture, and male/female relationships.

    b. A man who seeks or volunteers to rescue a woman from her poor choices or excuse her irresponsible behaviors, esp. one who seeks to rescue a carousel rider who does not really want to be rescued.

    33. MRA: Men’s rights advocate(s).

    34. MRM: Men’s rights movement.

    35. MGTOW: Men going their own way. Refers to men who choose not to marry, not to work time consuming jobs, not to father children, and otherwise not assume the worker/husband/father role.

    36. Marriage strike: refers to a movement among men who choose not to marry or, after being divorced, choose not to remarry. Whether there is a marriage strike in American society is a matter of some debate in the manosphere.

  23. detinennui32

    37. Career firster: a woman who has focused completely on her job or career for most of her adult life. She has subordinated male companionship to her career but not necessarily excluded it. She might be, but is not necessarily, a carousel rider. She usually does not realize she is a career firster until she has hit the wall or is close to it. There are two primary motivations behind career firsters: 1. She believes the feminist tenet that she can wait until she is 30 or past it before even thinking about marriage and children. (She does not realize that her marriage prospects begin declining in her early 30s.) 2. She believes her intellect, her job and/or her career to be her primary attractive attributes. (She does not realize that in truth, her primary attractive attributes to men are youth and physical appeal.)

  24. jlw

    What’s “omega’ to you? Are some omegas permanently embedded in that strata? If so, what should they do?

  25. detinennui32

    Roissy at and Vox Day at have taken on the “omega” definition. IIRC, an omega is a condition marked by very poor sociai skills, far below average number of sexual partners, and an almost complete inability to move to beta status.

    I don’t believe an omega necessarily has to stay omega forever and there is nothing he can do to improve himself. I’d say it’s nearly impossible for an omega to become an alpha, though. An omega can become beta.

  26. detinennui32

    @ jlw:

    From “The Hierarchy”. This describes alphas, betas, deltas, gammas, sigmas and lambdas. I would encourage a review of this – it’s a good, easy read.

    “Omega: The truly unfortunate. Omegas are the social losers who were never in the game. Sometimes creepy, sometimes damaged, often clueless, and always undesirable. [In a social/party setting, t]hey’re not at the party. It would never have crossed anyone’s mind to invite them in the first place. Omegas are either totally indifferent to women or hate them with a borderline homicidal fury.

    Lifetime sexual partners < 2"

    And it describes Alphas in the usual way, as at the top of the male heap in terms of social/sexual power. Alphas get first pick of the Tier 1 women. Betas are lieutenants to the alphas and have good luck with women but not nearly to the extent of the alphas. They get the alphas' castoffs and first pick of the Tier 2s.

    Deltas are the normal men in the broad middle of the curve who get a few Tier 2 women (to whom they are attracted) and mostly Tier 3s (to whom they are not attracted). According to this hierarchy, most men are Deltas. Deltas exhibit most of the stereotypical beta behavior. They are called Deltas because they exhibit the most capacity for change and improvement.

    Gammas are the weirdos, the social outcasts and inepts, and the nerds, but still not as bad off as omegas because they at least want to play the game. Sigmas are the lone wolves who don't play by any rules but still have some pull with women. Lambdas are (I think) gay men and superalphas.

  27. jlw

    Outstanding and thanks for the information. It would seem that the catagory of omegas would include both (i) those who can change their status and (ii) those that can not or will not (effectively the same thing). Are you aware of any resources online for the second group? The Internet is awash in advice for the first group but no one has ever, in the history of the Internet, addressed the irrecoverable failures in the sexual marketplace. These are the guys who, no matter what they do, will never be able to draw a MOTOS to which they feel mutual attraction.

    I wonder why all the self-help gurus carefully avoid discussing this group.

  28. Brendan

    Omegas are generally not considered to be capable of much change. “Game” is directed at betas and deltas (per the above nomenclature), with perhaps a small amount of gammas as well, although most gammas can’t really learn Game either. Omegas, though, are considered to be more or less permanently out of the game entirely, and most of them have simply given up and are indifferent to it. If you’re not indifferent to it and haven’t given up, you’re more of a gamma.

  29. detinennui32

    @jlw, brendan;

    I am fascinated with the extent to which people and bloggers such as Dalrock, Badger. Susan Walsh, Athol Kay, Grerp, Haley, Roissy, the Spearhead and In Mala Fide folks, and others have studied and written about male-female relationships. Taking the red pill explains everything – social hierarchies, why women are attracted to a few men, what I did wrong and what I did right. It makes me realize that almost everything everyone told me about meeting, talking to and getting intimate with women was absolutely 180 degrees from the truth.

    Frankly, nearly everyone who told me anything about how to meet and get to know women either lied to me or had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. The SMP was changing rapidly because of easy contraceptive availability. declining cultural and sexual mores, and rampant divorce culture. Dad and I simply are products of two vastly different times, I suppose.

    I realize that even my own father had no idea how he had persuaded his wife – my mother – to marry him and make babies with him. He was able to do it, but still doesn’t know how or why. (Different time, my mom had almost no options, she was an early feminist, he was easy pickings for a woman looking for a husband, he was 27 and had a low opinion of himself and had even fewer options than she did.) He had bedded women before meeting my mom, but to this day can’t explain how he managed it. He had no idea what to teach me, his son, thus leaving me to fend for myself and learn it from friends or listen to women. As for my mother and sisters, they knew even less. Why I listened to anything they said is now simply beyond any comprehension.

    No man should ever take advice on relationships from women. And if you take advice from a man, make sure it’s a man with some success.

    That’s why what Badger and others are doing here is so important. It’s almost a public service.

  30. detinennui32

    ever seen Sixteen Candles? This John Hughes movie (and many other of his movies) show many different types.

    Alpha: The Michael Schoeffling character, whom Samantha is in complete love with.
    Beta: The Schoeffling character’s football friends.
    Delta: Samantha’s father. Samantha’s future brother in law.
    Gamma: Long Duk Dong. The Anthony Michael Hall character (the Geek). (Note that the Geek is a gamma who thinks he’s an alpha or a beta. He becomes a beta at the end of the movie.)
    Omega: The Geek’s friends.

    Note also that this is a fantasy movie. In real life, the alpha does not settle for the quirky but good natured Tier 2-3 girl for an LTR. (Samantha is a 4 or a 5, a 6 at best.) The Geek/gamma does not become a greater beta overnight, nor does he get the Tier 1 girl, not even the falling down drunk Tier 1 girl. The gamma also does not willingly and enthusiastically get with a 2 or a 3, as LDD does.

    Examples of sigmas in pop culture: The Clint Eastwood character in most of his movies, esp. Pale Rider, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, Five Easy Pieces, and toward the end of Unforgiven.

  31. jlw

    Thanks! This is a pretty good description. You could apply it to cheers. Workshy is currently running a great series on the lives of omegas. Check it out:

  32. Jennifer

    “Never take dating or relationship advice from a woman. Always seek advice from a man”

    That’s generalizing bullshit; if she’s aware of the difference between being nice and being a doormat, she can offer some good advice from the female perspective. This objectifying aspect (her big head can’t make rational decisions) is the limited part of game that I despise. The general rules: don’t be a pushover, don’t be over-eager, be assertive, be confident. It doesn’t mean there’s a map of micro-rules that you have to follow on a life-long basis to make things work because all women are the same.

  33. detinennui32

    Jennifer said: ““Never take dating or relationship advice from a woman. Always seek advice from a man”

    That’s generalizing bullshit; if she’s aware of the difference between being nice and being a doormat, she can offer some good advice from the female perspective.”

    Not really, Jen. Generalizations serve a good purpose. Most women don’t give advice geared to a non-alpha who needs help and instruction. Most women just tell men to “be nice” and “be yourself”. Such advice could not be less helpful. Yes, yes, I know you’ve set out accurate advice — but you seem to have some knowledge of game. The vast majority of women don’t. All they know is they want alpha men and hate beta men. And men are starting to get wise to that.

  34. detinennui32

    “This objectifying aspect (her big head can’t make rational decisions) is the limited part of game that I despise.”

    Jen, this is unclear. Are you talking about the rationalization hamster? Every woman has one.

    Women can make rational decisions. It’s just that most of the time in their relationship lives, they don’t. If they did, they would not say things like “I just want a Nice Guy Who Will Treat Me Right” and then scamper off with the drummer in the local rock band who pumps and dumps her. And they would not do this over and over again.

    And they would not say moronic things like “Where have all the Good Men gone?” Cue the refrain: Ummm, we’re right here. We’ve been here all along. It’s just that you did not want us. You wanted Tattoo McLonghair.

    if women did deploy logic and reason in their personal lives, a lot more betas would be happily married to good women, who would be happy with those beta men.

    But women in today’s society have made crystal clear they don’t want nice guys. They don’t want betas. They want alphas, or at least reasonable facsimiles thereof. And sites like this aim to give women what they want.

  35. Jennifer

    You’re basically right in your points, and thank you for listening to mine. I have learned more about game recently, and it honestly helps to be a Christian; we are taught from the Bible that men need to be both strong and good, so I was never confused about wanting a doormat male (although I was suspicious about game at first, due to its hookup connection, the misleading messages I’d received about it and the abuse I’ve seen truly domineering men practice). Now I appreciate it a lot more; I just still tend to avoid reductionist statements like “women can’t think clearly in relationships” and “don’t listen to what they say”. I understand that many women give garbled advice and most have to train themselves to use logic in the heat of relationships; I just don’t want young men coming away with the impression that this means we should never be listened to, even when in a LTR relationship.

    Our current culture is indeed mixed up, because when the sexual revolution and feminism collided, women became dominant and trampled men in many ways; the result was massive mistrust in males, hence constantly warning them not to be bossy, not to be mean, etc. True, men should be neither to women, but to say women overdid it would be an understatement; I think a lot of women assume guys won’t be naturally nice, so they think they need to pound it into their heads. Well, as it happens, most guys ARE generally decent and have no problem with being nice of their own accord, so when they receive this overloaded message from women, they assume it means they have to practically be Stepford gentlemen and give up assertiveness, because it’s “bossy” and “mean”. The result? Women got pissed and guys got more confused. This, as it happens, resulted in two big disasters: good men were dismissed because they’d lost their sense of leadership, and many women looking for strength have instead flocked to cruel pump and dumps. Basic game with common sense and discretion is indeed a great tool.

  36. detinennui32

    Not only are we taught that men are to be strong and good, but we are also taught that we are to love wives “as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her”. We’re also taught that the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the Head of the Church. It is also scriptural that the wife is to submit to her husband.

    Well, women in today’s church don’t want to hear that. Oh no no no. That’s why I keep pressing you on where all these “Christian women” are that you keep talking about. What I’m hearing and seeing is women who wear the pants, who make all the decisions, and who bristle and chafe at the thought of having to submit to a man (despite the fact that that is commanded by the faith they profess).

    I think you’re right in your analysis. In fact it’s the same analysis you see here and at (gasp) Roissy. You might not like Roissy or think he’s crass, but he’s a genius. Women became dominant and they don’t want to be. When they became dominant, the men were told not to be dominant. Women don’t like this. They don’t really want to be on pedestals. They don’t really want to make the decisions. They want their men to be dominant, but then the feminist sisterhood calls the men rapists and the women traitors.

    I met a great girl in college. First girl I ever met who was worth a shit. She was average looking, but kind and honest to a fault, devoted and smart. She never tried the “I am Woman, hear me roar” thing, never played games with me, never fitness tested me, and was never anything less than honest. I have never met a girl like her before or since. Every girl I’ve ever known, including my wife, was down for the fitness test, the protection shield, and the “hard to get” mentality.

    So I was with her only a short time; I thought I was too good for her (!) because she wouldn’t give up the booty right away (and in fact she never did, at least not to me). Within 2 years of ditching me, she was married and still is today. My point? She did it right. She didn’t give it up to just anybody. She shot straight with the men in her life. Engaged at 22, married at 23 to a guy who loves her; and she did not compromise herself. That’s how you do it.

  37. Det-
    i always like reading your posts. VERY good insight. i’m glad we crossed paths brother.

    i made a recent post about my dealing’s with “tests” (don’t wanna go blue on badge’s site).
    cruising badger’s site is a nightly ritual for me. lol.

  38. Jennifer

    Wow Det, you found a real gem! “A virtious woman, who can find..?” And you thought you were too good for her *facepalm*

    “Not only are we taught that men are to be strong and good, but we are also taught that we are to love wives “as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her”. We’re also taught that the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the Head of the Church. It is also scriptural that the wife is to submit to her husband”

    See, note both those commands; it’s very hard for people to get them BOTH right, because we’re such stupid fallable creatures. And you’d be surprised, oh VERY surprised, to see how many Christian women harp on and on about obeying their husbands as if they were God. Oh yeah, I’ve been on the opposite spectrum of you, my friend; not with women in person, but with various Christian authors and teachers online. I don’t believe the husband’s boss, I believe they’re one flesh, but quite possibly that the husband steers the ship somewhat more often, as he’s the protector. See, I don’t find Roissy a genuis; the fact that women aren’t happy when they dominate their husbands is not a genuis discovery, but a fact that actually any person who pays attention will see. I don’t like Roissy because he advocates using women, and often with deception and covert manipulation, not caring for them as people at all. Nope, in every manner of society, turns out God was right all along: the people who carefully select mates, respect themselves, and treat their sexuality as something special are the ones who always win out.

  39. Jennifer

    Don’t be too mad, Danny; sometimes a shit test is an unconscious thing.

  40. detinennui32

    For a woman to give sound relationship advice, she needs to be honest with herself and others about the following:
    1. Women are hypergamous, they are not naturally monogamous
    2. Women fitness test. Sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously. With rare exception, they all do it.
    3. Women often don’t say what they really mean.
    4. Women often speak in partial truths and half truths. (A perfect example: when a woman says she just wants a nice guy who will treat her right, what she REALLY means is “I just want a hot, good looking, confident guy who will be nice to me, commit to me, have sex only with me, and treat me right.” Half the battle would be fought and won if women would just be clear and honest about this.)
    5. All women have a rationalization hamster. I’ve seen girls as young as 10 rationalizing.
    6. Women often say one thing and then do the exact opposite (i.e. “I just want a nice guy who will treat me right” then run off with Harley Biker Badboy; or “I don’t want to get in a serious relationship right now” then a month later, she’s hot and heavy with Dr. Medical Student.)
    Part of what is done here is to have honest conversations about these issues. Feminism and the mainstream media ignores things like female duplicity, hypergamy, female cheating, women initiating at least 70% of divorces, etc. and instead falsely blames men for what women and feminism have wrought.

    A few women, like grerp and Susan Walsh, get it. Most still don’t, including my mother and every woman I knew until I was 30 years old I was told to “be nice” and “be yourself”. My father’s sole relationship advice? “Keep your d**k in your pants. If you don’t you’re playing with fire.” This is the most useless advice any parents could ever give their son. It condemns a young man to neverending frustration, anger, bitterness and withdrawal. It makes you spin your head in disbelief that the jerks, the thugs and the a$$holes get all the girls. “How can that be? They’re not “nice”. Why do they get all the girls? I was told that I was supposed to be “nice” and I would be swimming in girls. Why is this not happening?” So then I was told that evidently, I must not be “nice” enough and I should be “nicer”. Heh. The frustration is only amplified when he finds out that what everyone told him was absolutely 180 degrees from the truth.

  41. detinennui32

    Part of what is done here is to have honest conversations about these issues. Feminism and the mainstream media ignores things like female duplicity, hypergamy, female cheating, women initiating at least 70% of divorces, etc. and instead falsely blames men for what women and feminism have wrought.

    And as long as the MSM and feminism dominate, we will never be able to have honest conversations about these issues. Most women, including Christian women, will do nothing to stop feminism. Why not? Because feminism is in their immediate self-interest. Men are subjected to neverending shaming language. We’re called sexists and misogynists. Our sexuality and manhood are attacked, belittled and defamed. We are threatened with lawsuits, losing our jobs, professional ostracism, financial ruin, and family estrangement.

  42. detinennui32

    And another thing:
    Most of the Christian women I know are just fine with men loving them as Christ loved the Church. They are just fine with us giving ourselves up for them.

    What they don’t want is the reciprocal obligation to submit to the husband and let him be the head. Most of these women (and their mothers and, in some cases, their grandmothers) have been marinating in a toxic stew of feiminism for about 50 years now.

  43. Jennifer

    #3 and #4 are generally results of women not being able to express their wants fully because they don’t understand them; i.e., they know they want a good man so they’ll say so, but they don’t recognize the need for a strong man or, in an extreme sense, a major alpha. Plus, they can get their emotional wants trumped by physical wants against theit better judgement (Miss Hot-For-Med-Student may not have emotionally been ready for a relationship, but her sex urge made the decision for her. Sometimes we’re not THAT different from guys). The hypergamy thing is an instinct of the most base, heartless nature, like a man’s for polygamy; if a woman has this urge, she’s likely to try to ignore it or might not recognize it, so she probably wouldn’t say she’s hypergamous anymore than a man would say he’s polygamous. Some of these rules of base human nature play out in the initial mating selection process (guys make a wide range of possibilities of numerous women, often letting three or four hang on their arms, while women select one man in particular as a potential mate until a “better” option presents itself); it’s when solid relationships have been formed that succumbing to these mating traits is the most harmful and destructive. I’m sorry you’ve seen so many selfish women; I’ve seen that, and also the opposite end of the spectrum, but blessedly I’ve also seen good women and good men.

  44. i knew from the jump that detinennui32 was on point. this mother f*cker know’s his shit.

    brother….you need to start a blog. if my dumb ass can blog, then you DEFINATELY need to be blogging. you write well and administer GREAT/SOUND advice.

  45. detinennui32

    Danny: I don’t know about being a blogger. Maybe I can just make Badger’s life a little easier. What I can tell you is that writing this stuff down helps tone down the anger and bitterness.

    I’m telling you, I look back on my life and I want to weep and rend my clothes. The wasted time, effort and money. The crappy, useless advice. The oneitis. The complete inability to keep rejection in perspective. The almost complete lack of knowledge of the female mind. Staring IOIs right in the face and not even knowing it because no one’s ever freakin’ told you what they are and you’re too damn busy trying to “be nice” and “be yourself”. The refusal to kick to the curb and absolutely erase from your life a girl whose only redeeming qualities are her genitalia and who fitness tests you within an inch of your life and makes your existence one unending misery after another, all because you think you have no other options. The begging for sex. Dozens upon dozens of LJBFs. The fear. The insecurity. The apprehension. The fighting with girls about the stupidest, most meaningless things. The bitching, nagging and complaining. Running every beta loser routine in the entire book, and even creating new ones. Unknowingly running game on girls, actually getting a girl, and when she flakes. being unable to replicate it because you don’t even know what you did right.

    Sometimes this makes me want to hang myself by my own intestines.

    There’s a lot of frustration out there with the SMP and male-female relations the way they are now. And I believe the manosphere is just the tip of the iceberg. How many millions of frustrated men are simply dropping out because they don’t have the skills to attract even 4s and 5s, average women? And how many average women are unwittingly setting themselves up for P & Ds, and then will still be single when they hit the wall and it’s too late?

    . I don’t agree with the MGTOWs. I think the MRM is a nonstarter because I don’t think it will ever be a movement that will effect real, deep, wide or lasting social change. I can say that I understand where they are coming from, and that they have a lot to shout about.

    I’ve got to teach my son Game. He absolutely has to learn this or he’s going to be rubbing himself raw every night and he’ll hate me. Because I knew the truth and I didn’t show him.

  46. detinennui32


    Rant continued:

    The knowledge and realization that the people who you love and trust and who were supposed to teach you how to attract women –one of the most crucial life skills that bring a man the most joy and happiness — actually know less than nothing about it.

    The near-complete destruction of marriage as a viable, lasting institution.

    The fact that if I ever find myself widowed or divorced, I don’t believe I can ever marry again because in today’s environment it’s fraught with peril –for ME, not for her.

    The fact that if things don’t change, I’ll have to advise my own son — blood of my blood, flesh of my flesh — not to get married, because I want him to be happy.

    I need to stop writing now. If I don’t, I’m going to jump off a bridge. Sorry Badger. This rant probably belongs at The Spearhead or In Mala Fide, not here.

  47. detinennui32

    Egads. The fear that my son will never find a woman half as good as his mother.

  48. DET-
    your apprehansion is well placed. everything’s you’ve “ranted” about is ratioanle as to why i’ve never married. you yourself claim that only the last 3 years of your 15 year marriage (those where you applied game) are happy.

    well sir……i’ve heard your message. and i’m preparing myself accorrdingly.

  49. NMH

    My dad said nothing to me, not even “Keep your dick” in your pants. Even if he had said something to me about Game 20 years ago when I was ripe to fall in love and get married, I would have not believed him because it would have been way to cynical, and for me falling in love with a woman was the most pure thing that could happen. It would have been impossible for me to believe that falling in love, marriage, children was based on so cynical motivations.

    I dont hate my dad for not telling me about Game; I blame myself for failing to connect the dots and not being genetically capable to attract a top tier woman.

    I’m not sure if my dad he really understands why my Mom picked him. Besides, if he knew she picked him because he was a beta provider, it may destroy him, because he really loves my Mom.

  50. Bb

    “Sometimes this makes me want to hang myself by my own intestines.”

    @detinennui32 I admire your passion…but I hope you don’t get too discouraged. You have a strong, loving relationship now, yes? And the means and knowledge to sustain that. You are also, by virtue of your comments, able to give many others strong advice. With the new knowledge I’ve learned, I’ve spent my own time thinking and dealing with regrets and “what-ifs”, and it only takes time away from me moving forward.

    “As he’s becoming more aware of true female nature, there is a risk his young mind and heart will slip into cynicism and disgust for girls. Don’t let that happen. Remind him that, though the world works this way, there is no reason to let it get him down. There are some rules to follow, but the game itself is still a lot of fun, and nothing feels better than falling in love with a girl who loves you back.”

    Roissy’s advice to a young man. We don’t talk about it much in this space, but for those who want love, it’s real, out there, and worth it. Almost impossible to find, but worth the search, and worth the suffering in the past.

  51. detinennui32

    Danny: I don’t want to get too cynical. I met and married a woman who responded to Game and who loves it. I know the risks. I’m doing pretty well in what could otherwise be a precarious situation. My lament is that we didn’t know about Game sooner. If we had been instructed in the crimson arts, who knows what we could have done or had?

    NMH: in a world rotted with feminism, Game is counterintuitive. I probably would have been a hater 10 years ago because I believed men and women were exactly the same and our brains and thought processes were the same. But having been a “nice” “kitchen bitch” and helping more around the house (which got me exactly bupkus with my wife), getting blown out of the water with fitness tests, and having a wife from whom I had to extract sex like a root canal, I’ve been properly schooled.

  52. Bb

    @detinennui32 I’m glad to hear you don’t want to get cynical. I think that’d be a shame. There’s a lot of positive that you’re spreading with your comments. I also wonder about what I could have done, had I known differently. But I work on not wasting time with regrets. Does little to help to help me.

    Re your son, Roissy said this on advice to a young man:
    “As he’s becoming more aware of true female nature, there is a risk his young mind and heart will slip into cynicism and disgust for girls. Don’t let that happen. Remind him that, though the world works this way, there is no reason to let it get him down. There are some rules to follow, but the game itself is still a lot of fun, and nothing feels better than falling in love with a girl who loves you back.”

  53. Jennifer

    Wow, a romantic thought from Roissy. It’d be nice if he married a good woman in his later years.

  54. Jennifer

    It’s not always easy for us either, guys; I’m not complaining, but many suffer from the femmies’ mistakes. I was raised and surrounded by good normal people in my life, and even usually online, so I was flabbergasted when I first came across the anger on the manosphere. I know why now; all I had to do was look at femmie material.

  55. Bb

    @Jennifer Roissy knows better than to marry.

  56. Jennifer

    But he doesn’t know better than to screw around. Sad.

  57. Bb

    Yes, I’m sure he’s crying…tears of joy.

  58. Jennifer

    It won’t last; female hots don’t make a heart.

  59. Jennifer

    I’m not saying he’d be miserable as a single. But as a heel? They don’t usually end up with lives that happy.

    Good comments on your blog about “Surrendered Wife”, btw. Very detrimental, some of it; she recommends not only keeping your mouth totally zipped, but even treats the hubby like he’s a kid with a fragile ego. Did you know some women even see her book as a tool for manipulation? OT here, but I just thought I’d mention it.

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