Guys Opting Out of the Game

I was browsing the Roosh V Forum recently and saw this comment by the very astute commenter MikeCF (author of the excellent now-mothballed blog Crime & Federalism).

 “Here’s something I’ve been noticing more and more. I’m wondering if it’s just me or if you guys notice it, too.

When I go out, I see large groups of guys who don’t seem like they even want to meet girls.

They stand in a corner or near the bar and just drink to get fucked up. They are more about hanging with their bros than with meeting girls.

When girls walk by, they aren’t really gawking or drinking more to get the courage to approach.

They genuinely seem disinterested in meeting girls.

A lot of times these are normal guys, too, so it’s not like they are dregs.

Is this a trend that anyone else is noticing?”

The replies speculated/blamed innumerable factors: guys being totally betatized, guys too chicken to approach, packs of dudes who just want to enjoy a night out, declining testosterone, game tactics going blase, selection bias (most guys out on the town aren’t approaching to begin with), porn and video games drying out their souls, fear of public rejections, poor economic prospects, women being too unattractive or too bitchy to approach.

“I am literally the only dude in my social click who is doing stuff and approaching girls.

Most of the guys I met seem happy to be virgins and single and do not feel like less of men, infact they come off as more alpha than me.

I just don’t get it…I mean these my social click are not even catholic or religious.

I can’t fault them, they seem really happy and play laser tag or sports and have a drink at the pub.”

MikeCF replied to the discussion wondering if spending a lot of time trying to pick up your average barfly was a productive use of one’s very valuable time, and then got to the heart of his post:

“But I’m not sure that guys who have “checked out” are pussies inasmuch as they are uninspired. “

You know I always play it straight at the Badger Hut, and this sums up what I am seeing too.

CHECKING OUT

I can only speak for my environment, which is more or less college-educated white-collar urban professionals, but I’m noticing a sort of fatalism among guys my age and below. It’s like they have just taken socializing with women – in a romantic context at least – off the list of things they do.

They go to work, they stay in shape, they have interesting hobbies and rewarding friendships, but they don’t know how to parlay any of those into any kind of success with women, be it sexual conquest or committed relationships. And so like good economic actors, they they’ve trailed off from behavior that is disincentivized.

One of the really key lessons of game that I picked up early on was this: the things you need to do as a man to be financially successful in life, to move your career forward, and to earn the respect of other men are often irrelevant and sometimes harmful to being good with women. What makes you “a great guy” to the boys may have nothing to do with what gets girls interested in you. Success with women is not the blanket reward for a well-built life – it’s another piece of the puzzle, another skill you need to have and a skill tuned to your makeup and lifestyle to boot. It’s a rewarding skill, but it takes a lot of work and practice to build it up.

Obviously, the more money, career upside and physical stature a man has, the better his baseline for success in the game – however, if he has no ability to talk to women in an interesting way, to arrange the logistics to escalate the intimacy, and to express himself sexually, he’s not going to do very well with women. He’ll get told “you’ll make somebody so happy someday!” by a friendzone crush who is wholly uninterested in him. He’ll get a lot of “I had a nice time tonight” pecks on the cheek, and behind his back his dates will tell their girlfriends that he’s “really nice” but somehow just doesn’t do it for them. Until they have to drop to Plan B and his boring stability looks pretty good in the face of fewer and fewer interesting, seductive men making their acquaintance.

In any case, these are not just your below-average omegas opting out. I don’t think they are going their own way intentionally. They didn’t wake up one day and say “American women are teh sUck and I’m done with this shit.” They are just honing in on a lifestyle that is consistently rewarding for them, and these days it doesn’t involve chatting up women they want to date. By the time they are old enough to have some value and get some consistent success with women, they’ve habituated into a sit-it-out mindset.

THEY DON’T TEACH THIS GROWING UP

My mind resonated with another comment on the RVF thread:

“There uses to be something called the singles scene. Men and women would go out in pairs, maybe threes, with the intention of meeting someone. That scene is pretty much dead. It still happens in some places, but the heyday is over. Women these days are more likely to be out in a big group, celebrating some chick’s “birthday weekend” or with their gay friends at brunch. Where the women go, the men [follow] suit.”

I think this is the single biggest factor in men checking out, more than the economy or feminism or porn. They just don’t know how to do it. The social skills for interacting with the opposite sex in a productive manner are just not being taught to the new generation – it’s been replaced with a lot of “just be yourself” bullshit – and the structures to funnel good dating prospects between the sexes don’t exist – they’ve been replaced with turbo-charged meat markets where sex is on the table from the word go.

Young men today have a tactical problem and a moral problem when it comes to meeting girls. They just flat-out don’t know how to do it, and they don’t know if they should want to.

The skills weren’t being trained when I was young for sure, and we’re seeing the fruits of it. I grew up in the era where the active, forward nature of male sexuality itself was criminalized from youth onward. This caused a great period of questioning for many young men who were not born with the charm that makes it OK to be a sexual man. The sexual marketplace is in the thick of a divergence, with attractive naturals getting the lion’s share of women’s attention from a very young age, and the rest of them falling further and further behind as the old expectations of mutual commitment are torn apart and the scene goes fully feral.

Regarding dating structures, earlier generations and societies had governors in place to prevent the sort of “sexual hoarding” we have seen in the last 20 years. This took the form of strictly- or mildly-enforced assortive mating, the natural distinctions of class structure, the overwhelming expectation that people would marry off fairly early and thus had to prioritize attracting a selecting a decent long-term mate, and the teaching of basic skills like dancing and dressing yourself properly. Even school dances and socials where taking a date was expected provided some teaching structure, forcing people to go through the motions of finding (or arranging) somebody who would say yes.

I don’t mean to make it sound like everything was great in the past. There were plenty of problems and people left out. But it certainly seems there was more structure, and so everyone had a much clearer idea what the process was and what their options were.

It’s interesting to hear some people say that they’re seeing more and more guys checking out, while others say they are seeing more and more approach-machine wannabe PUAs trawling the nightclubs and bars. As I tried to point out in my Reciprocal Scarcity posts, economics and sociology are fields of paradox, where seemingly-contradictory things can coexist and be simultaneously true. We can be seeing an uptick in the prevalence of game among a thin but visible cohort, while at the same time seeing a large pocket of borderline men crossing the border and checking out of the game entirely.

Like MikeCF, I’m not criticizing or judging these guys. I’ve been them at times in my life. But it’s too bad, because a lot of them could have a happy life that includes the comforts of women, but they never got a chance when they most needed it.

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65 responses to “Guys Opting Out of the Game

  1. I think this shirt sums up the attitude.

  2. M3

    Looks like the Herbivore mindset is starting to take hold here.

    Not like one couldn’t see it coming…

  3. Shameful

    Its still pretty damn competitive. I lost a girl i ended up having feelings for right after closing after what i thought would be a relationship. Couldnt compete with the endless deluge of attention, guys blowing up her phone, driving her around, buying her booze (20). I turned into the boring stable guy because i thought that lifestyle would damage her. Near as i can figure have to be the most heartless bastard and accept cannot have a deep connectiin.connection.

  4. This absolutely depends on where you look and what you’re looking for. Ironically, the big story in many corners of the PUA community is the mainstreaming of “game” and pickup. (I had a 6′ natural roommate who had slept with plenty of chicks in HS and college, had no need for any new skills or tactics, and even he had heard about “the game.”)

    And yes, the vast majority of guys at clubs and bars don’t approach anything. That has always been the case. It’s only in movies and TV shows where we see anything different.

    The average guys (vast majority of guys) get laid through social circle, as they always have. In the US the average man from 18-45 or so has sex with about 6 women his entire life. And the vast majority of those relationships are (a) long term in nature and (b) come from social circle. This is how it is, and how it’s been for a long time.

    It seems strange to guys like us who talk to thousands of strangers. But actually, we’re the ones that are strange.

    All this talk about feminism, culture, yadda yadda–eh, maybe that makes a difference on the margins. But statistically speaking, there is precious little substantive change in lifetime mating and dating habits over time (at least here in the US). The promiscuous elite alphas have the disproportionate share of the sexual variety, a minority of men at the bottom get zero to two lifetime partners, and the vast bulk in the middle get a solid handful.

  5. BTW on this:

    “Men and women would go out in pairs, maybe threes, with the intention of meeting someone. That scene is pretty much dead.”

    I live in New York, and I see women in twos and threes all the time. If you go out to the handful of big popular clubs and lounges, then you’re more likely to see large groups (birthday parties, bachelorette parties, etc). But go to the more mainstream/ local bars, especially early evening on the weekends, or late evening during the week, and you’ll see lots of smaller groups.

  6. most PUAs will openly admit to being pro feminist.

  7. earl

    Men are being imprisioned by their mind.

    The only way out is to fight all those demons…one demon at a time.

  8. Wilson

    Eventually a baby-rabies bitch will catch scent of money and maul them. It’s like a zombie infestation, you don’t have look for them, they’ll find you. Or, in more horrific terms, the sex roles have been reversed with the woman leading the mating process

  9. The paradox makes sense to me. Each time a new pickup artist is created, he occupies the attention of several women. That leaves necessarily fewer women for “normal guys.” The harder it is, the more likely the normal guy is just never going to enter the game in the first place.

  10. Anonymous

    Im at a fraternity in college that is low tier on campus. I never see my brothers around girls. On weekends they don’t party, they just drink with each other in the frat house. They dress like shit, and they are just boring. I ask so many of them why they don’t actually try to get girls, and they say “we are different from other frats, we are special”… It’s college, the best time for meeting girls and they just choose to do jackshit?

    And then, when I bring 5 girls over to the frat house, all of them want to talk to them lol.

    I don’t know if it’s because I have more testosterone than them or what. I hate drinking unless it’s with purpose, and I enjoy the social game. I think guys just don’t have the balls, and they don’t have an urge to get laid… Bad return on investment for guys who don’t know how to game.

  11. TMG

    All good points, but I think it’s simply that women are overvalued, and men are undervalued. Due to women’s horrendous behavior men are FINALLY demonstrating a more realistic appraisal of women.

  12. Tesla was robbed

    Don’t mean to needlessly cross-polinate this terrific, insightful, and in my view, 100% accurate post by mentioning Roissy, but I just want to highlight a real unfortunate trend I see in the manosphere.

    In speaking about how to apply correctives to the passive behaviour currently being observed in males of a certain age who, ordinarily, should be far more agressive in terms of the hunt for a mate and just intersexual relations in general, there seems to be an attitude that says: “Oh, don’t worry. These are just the dregs of humanity being weeded out by a process of natural sexual selection. I’ll see you poolside…hahahah……[under breath] losers!!!”

    However, that is a fallacy. Just as it is risible to think that game practitioners, players, and naturals only dip into the slut pool, it is equally untrue and ridiculous to regard all those that are opting out of the chase as undesirables.

    The truth is that there is a lot of quality guys in them thar sidelines. Not just in the beta/gamma/delta/boring/provider sense, but guys who can bring a lot to the table in the SMP.

    There are twin phenomenon at work here. #1) The marked emphasis, rigidly enforced, of extroverted modes of communication and interaction, and #2) Lack of success of many guys in their formative years.

    With the release of Susan Cain’s book “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking”, we have learned that collectively, we are about %60 introvert and 40% extrovert. However, it is the extrovert dogma that dominates the social sphere.

    On the second prong of the argument, there is the cold hard reality that early success usually creates a positive frame from which to launch future efforts. Success breeds success.

    Most of the guys you see standing around having a good time by themselves and not even looking at women fall into this category of early-onset unfotunitis. Women need to understand this maxim: “Women create the pool of men from which they will get to choose their future husbands from. If that pool contains a lot of early rejects, your chances of pairing off decrease markedly”.

    My solution to all this? Teach game starting in high school. Socialization and seduction techniques all four years (mandatory), with a final year thesis (for guys only) being proof of a sexual experience (same-sex or hetero) before being allowed to graduate. For women, hypergamy would preclude and scuttle any efforts to spread the love around more, so there is really nothing for them to contribute to this process.

    The end result? A lot more happy and content women and the taming of the current feral SMP by creating more competition and homeostasis.

    The alphas and sigmas out there these days are like the banks post-2008 after the bailout. Even bigger than too big to fail. It is quite sad and distressing all around. Good luck to us all.

  13. Yea this is quite the phenomenon I agree. I’ve noticed it amongst a few groups I run with — the guys, with very few exceptions, will NOT take risks when it comes to gaming girls. It’s like the social pressure they would feel from failure is just too much to surmount.

    I overheard one guy (who presumably could do ok if he would just put in some effort) on the topic of getting laid recently say “Yea unless it’s a sure thing then I’m not gonna bother. It’s not worth the effort to game some chick when I can just go beat off to porn because it’s like the same thing anyway.” Ummmm lol no it’s not.

    Their apathy = my gain

  14. DM

    Men are checking out because women have gone so feral that relationships with them cannot be fulfilling. The only thing left is their sexual and physical appeal since feminism has embraced masculinity in women and crushed their inner feminine spirit. While satisfying sexual urges is still a good reason to associate with women, for some men, this just isn’t enough.

    A relationship with a real feminine, genuine (i.e. no games, drama, BS), sweet, kind, innocent, nurturing woman can be incredibly fulfilling. Or can it? I’ve never met one of these creatures.

  15. Georgia Boy

    Things are not the same as they ever were. As Dalrock has documented, the percentage of women of all ages who are married is still in steady decline, following the trend of decades. I see more women who get late into their 20s never having had a serious LTR, just a succession of casual boyfriends.

    I’ve become more convinced lately that we are nowhere near Peak Cad. And all I’m doing is just noting long term social trends like this and seeing no leveling or reversal of them.

    For now the unmarried women stay single. The next step comes once same-sex marriage is fully legalized. It will lead to a whole class of Boston marriages, where single moms/women join to become an ersatz family unit. Thus they take advantage of any benefits intended for families (tax benefits, government-directed private sector benefits like you get at your job, etc.) This cuts betas out completely and then the women go outside the marriage to cads when they want fun and sex.

    Leaving more and more not-charismatic men simply with single celibate lives until much later in life. They are on their way to simply becoming packhorses. Go to work, run the machines that make a high-tech society function, pay the government auto-deducts “for the children,” and go home with enough of your own income for beer and Internet surfing. If you are attractive enough to join in the fun after hours, great. If you’re not, well get better game or get lost. LTRs are so 1950s (unless you’re gay).

    To pay for it all, we have more creeping socialism to provide for women and children’s needs broadly, through government or government edict, instead of through a nuclear relationship. Government mandated health care, preferences in college admissions and hiring for them, next up the liberals are building the case for housing in a good neighborhood to be their next human right.

    A lot of Manosphere guys seem to think that one form or another of MGTOW is their trump card, that women lose if they opt out. I think they’re fooling themselves. This is by design, the Cathedral intended betas to drop out all along. Implicitly and sometimes explicitly, the Left has seen the family unit as the bedrock of repression of female sexual freedom. This is liberalism’s obsession and they’re changing all of society to get it unconditionally. The whole point was get rid of the unattractive men, and give women total freedom. The majority of the men are gradually to be reduced to out of sight, out of mind. Alphas lay, betas pay.

  16. Athor Pel

    A succession of normal interactions with ‘normal’ western women is enough to turn many guys away from active pursuit. It’s not red pill, it’s not blue pill, it’s just the expected result of a rational cost to benefit analysis.

    As you meet more women you gain the ability to spot the tells, you have a very good idea of what you’re going to get after talking to a girl for a few minutes. Once that initial appraisal is confirmed through further contact and repeated for x number of girls, well, the guys just stop looking.

    To use a psychological conditioning analogy, if you push the lever many time and get nothing of substance in return then you eventually stop pushing the lever. You go find something productive to do.

  17. Georgia Boy

    Didn’t the famous experiment find that the mice that pushed the level and got the reward randomly, kept pushing the lever the longest of all? That to me is what approaching is like, and I built that thought into my own strategy for reducing approach anxiety. (I’m having a why-is-this-blog-reading-my-mind moment, not the first time that’s happened at the Badger Hut.)

  18. This probably has to do with women having nothing else to bring to the table outside of sex. You get with about 20 women? Cool – what was the point? What did you learn? How did this improve your life?

    I’m still trying to find the answer myself. For me, sex isn’t an achievement, it’s just a bodily function. It doesn’t beat having your own apartment that you like, a car or never having to worry about money. Those things are and have been more rewarding to me than pussy.

  19. I remember reading that thread. The first thought I had was one of skepticism. Are men really opting out? Everyone tends to their own bias, to see what they want. And the only evidence we have to go on is a few observations. How can devise an experiment and do more research to get an accurate answer? As rational men we should be looking to use the scientific method to aid in our analysis.

    MGTOW, conscious or unconscious, is great. I love it. For the PUA it means less competition and desperate hamsters. For the MGTOW it means a pretty stress free life of fleshlights, porn, and video games. It’s a win for everyone which is why I’m surprised so many “puas” shame mgtow men. They should be best friends but humans will use any excuse to feel superior to others.

    I think we should abstain from forming conclusions on why it’s happening until we can decided if it’s happening.

  20. The Lone Planet

    Most men are starting to realize that Game is a band aid over a Columbian necktie. I’m not saying Game doesn’t work, it’s just not worth the aggravation, especially with these “modern” women. Uninspired is the perfect word for what’s happening.

  21. Good post. It’s interesting how dances used to actually have a lot of asking people to dance and so it was a way to start talking to a girl. You can still find that at salsa dancing, swing and two-step but otherwise it’s pretty dead. Back in Jr High and High School there were the fast songs that were pretty low key and the slow songs that gave more of chance to chat a bit.

    It definitely does seem that the structures (outside of social circle and the land-mine laden work environment) just aren’t there as much anymore. The internet is a source of many relationships and hookups now but on POF you usually have 2-3x as many men as women so it just stokes the women’s hypergamy and pickiness.

  22. Caramba

    I can confirm.99% of guys I know are like that.
    It’s very hard to find a wingman nowadays.Almost impossible.

  23. I opted out before I found the redpill. I honestly can’t see myself ever trying to use game in the LTR/dating market, even though I truly believe it works. You don’t have to convince me in the slightest, the rationale behind it is simply too logical. So even though I’ve never practiced it, and frankly never witnessed it at work, I believe it works. I believe it because I’ve mapped out the blue pill side of the dating market too well to not see how effective game can be.

    There comes a point for a lot of blue-pill-beta guys where no one you know has any answers for why you are still single and why you don’t have a girlfriend. Your parents are clueless, your grandparents are either dead or equally clueless, and society is telling you to be yourself while allowing yourself to be financially and emotionally enslaved. That point where you’re dead certain that there’s no chance you’ll find someone you like (because you feel like you’re too old at 30+), have absolutely no power to affect your prospects(because you’ve been trained to be a blue-pill-beta), and have absolutely no friends or family whatsoever who can help you(because they’re all so clueless and deceived) is about the most lonely place a guy can be. I’m fairly certain it’s a tipping point for many men with other mild mental problems towards committing suicide. When your mind gets to such an impasse, you’re capable of all kinds of absurd human behavior. I’m certain it’s not too unlike women hitting the wall. I, personally, cut off all ties to my family at that point, I haven’t spoken to my 4 siblings and parents since. They have no idea why I did this, I did not try to explain it to them. I couldn’t rationally explain it to myself at the time, I just knew I didn’t want to be around them. I have spent almost zero time with my friends and extended family since that time. Most of the people I hang out with now are colleagues, and new friends from *after* hitting that point in my life. It was like I just jumped off the track I was on, and went somewhere else, leaving everyone else behind. I don’t seek women for LTR prospects, I really never did. No one explained how, everyone just assumed that the structures in place when they were young still existed. They presume that their children and children’s children will “just find someone”. I came to realize that I was the victim of a shirking of parental responsibility on a massive scale. I came to realize that while there were certainly changes in the dating market that my parents could perhaps not have predicted, there were also significant lessons of being a man (or woman) that were simply not being taught anymore that would have been of tremendous benefit. I realized that lessons I should have had as a kid from dad would never come, and as a result my own desire to find someone I liked could never be realized. Because I hit this point, I find myself now with no desire to spend the effort on a woman. I still like them, and if one comes around who wants to spend a tremendous amount of effort on me, I’ll consider something. But realistically there are just too many woman substitutes, and I have too many hobbies even outside of those to help me enjoy life.

    Maybe guys are hitting that point sooner now because of how society looks. It would be surprising to think that, considering how less rich an 18-20-something’s life is compared to my own at this point. But perhaps the substitutes for women have improved to such a point, and the penalties for masculinity they see men dealing with, and the ever-shrinking rewards have finally pushed the younger male crowd into ignoring the ladies. I kind of hope so.

  24. My two cents… I’ve been a natural all my life, and the last 6 months I’ve pretty much checked out. It comes down to two things: I prefer spending my time working out, watching new movies and reading – the things I enjoy. The other thing, is that I’m generally just bored. There’s no challenge in women anymore, and the one’s that are challenging aren’t worth it – they are challenging for the sake of being challenging, not because they have high value and protect it. It’s like I’ve “beaten” the game of women, and want to move on to some higher pursuit.

  25. This probably has to do with women having nothing else to bring to the table outside of sex. You get with about 20 women? Cool – what was the point? What did you learn? How did this improve your life?

    I’m still trying to find the answer myself. For me, sex isn’t an achievement, it’s just a bodily function. It doesn’t beat having your own apartment that you like, a car or never having to worry about money. Those things are and have personally been more rewarding to me.

  26. Patrick

    Yeah I’m one of those guys. Just can’t really make myself care. I’m religious otherwise I’d probably be looking for hook ups and casual things but other than that I don’t know. Doesn’t seem worth it.

  27. I’d say it’s the lack of inspiration. Put a herb-minded guy in a room of attractive women who put out a good vibe and he will interact with them.

    I’m pretty much the only person (male or female) in my entire social circle – hundreds of people of either students, white-collared professionals or artists – who approach and talk to strangers (male or female, young or old). That is because I like talking to new people, and that is often incentive enough. But even then, local girls are becoming way less inspiring to talk to. There are only so many feminist-minded sarcastic full-of-complaints could-lose-7%BF coffee-and-wine-snob SWPL girls you can talk to (and bang) before they all blend into the same person. I still talk to them out of reflex, but I’m not really putting in a honest, inspired effort. Without the training in Game, my male friends and acquaintances are way less inspired. Even then, I don’t think knowing Game is the answer for them. The road to mastering Game is long and hard, while the rewards for the vast majority of them are decidedly mediocre.

    “Good post. It’s interesting how dances used to actually have a lot of asking people to dance and so it was a way to start talking to a girl. You can still find that at salsa dancing, swing and two-step but otherwise it’s pretty dead.”

    It’s dead in dancing too, or at least beginning to die. I’m an active dancer in both swing and Latin scenes. It’s gone from a place to meet potential romances (overtly acknowledged in their marketing) to just to “have fun with friends and look fabulous”. People with intention to look for romances (even the serious kind) are shamed and ridiculed.

  28. greenlander

    Great post, Badger. Tellin’ it like it is.

  29. Johnycomelately

    I know dozens of guys like this and they run the whole gamut, from millionaires to laborers (coaching sports gives you an access to a wide variety of people).

    Playing the field is just not their scene and none of them have even heard of the manosphere or MGTOW.

    Funny thing is though, they’re far from the proverbial basement dwelling dweebs and for the most part happy with whatever they’re doing.

  30. Don

    The thing is that the mystery that women were portrayed as having over the centuries has been exposed as so much crap, sure sex is fantastic and all that but it certainly is not the ultimate answer as it once may have seemed. Blame porn, the internet, tv, movies whatever but people are out there reading the stories,watching the porn, players blogs etc and asking themselves the question – usually post-coital – is this it? It is worth the endless chase just to get your end away? All that effort and for what? Seriously, a few notches on the belt/bedpost and move on – to what? Bragging rights that most people that matter don’t give too craps about? So this is what lies at the other side of the mirror and frankly meh.

    For some endlessly chasing skirt may give them the validation that they seek but that is not what everyone wants to do.

    The mystery is gone, the only unknowns worth chasing now are what you can do with the time you have left and what you can make of yourself. So I don’t blame them at all.

  31. I’m not opting out of game…I’m creating a new penis showing game.

  32. “It’s dead in dancing too, or at least beginning to die. I’m an active dancer in both swing and Latin scenes. It’s gone from a place to meet potential romances (overtly acknowledged in their marketing) to just to “have fun with friends and look fabulous”. People with intention to look for romances (even the serious kind) are shamed and ridiculed.”

    I’m active in a growing swing dancing scene in the mid-Atlantic and I don’t know if I’ve noticed this. I’ve gotten a number of dates and numbers from this scene and can consistently get at least one number without too much effort on a given dance night
    What part of the country do you reside?

  33. Original_O

    One consistent thing I noted in looking over the posts above. The feminist have managed to almost completely eradicate the concept from the mind of many or at the least made it unspeakable. I know you’ll figure it out if I was willing to wait. Some almost touch on it. It used to be the real measure of a man and whether he had truly had success in life…..

    Family. Women haven’t changed that much over the millinia, nor have men. Sex adds spark and flavor to a relationship between them, but often there hasn’t been a huge overlap of interest. The most powerful bond was that of children. Pride in their achievements, love for your progeny, a feeling of satisfaction watching them grow and teaching them as they renew your sense of wonder looking through their eyes at a new world. Without children and family as the goal of a relationship, frankly members of the opposite sex make horrible companions. With abortion and the race to increase your partner count without adding to the world’s population life has a tendency to become pointless. You become the end point. No person can remain happy seeing the end coming. Having children means a expansion of vision and outlook, where the horizon becomes if not limitless, at least a place where hope of something better exists. If not for you, at least for your descendants. Of course the problem is that a female mindset has taken hold where life is to always be lived in “the now”, not the male mindset of “my descendants will inherit this land and build upon what I have built”. Want to know the truth about that old phrase “The Dark Ages”? We are in that part of the cycle now.

  34. zengardenw

    Can’t see what the big deal is with guys opting out of game. In fact it strikes me as the rational choice for most guys. Assume said guy doesn’t define himself in terms of the narratives peddled by the PUAs, feminists, and lifestyle coaches (e.g. you’er a loser unless you are X, where X = some social script such as the ability to pick up women, be a real man, 4 hour work week, etc..). Assume also that said guy is involved in productive hobbies that take up his personal time, has a social life that aligns with his personality (extrovert = lots of friends, introvert = few but quality friends), and earns a steady middle class income in a low-to-modest cost of living location.

    Suppose said guy has taken the red pill and is now hesitant about finding a woman to marry. But he wants to get off. Given the assumptions outlined above, what options are available to him?

    1) Porn.
    Pros:
    -available anytime, anywhere
    -free
    -no risk of disease
    -no commitment
    Cons:
    -not like the real thing
    -potential psychological damage

    2) Game
    Pros:
    -assuming you score, prove your manhood
    -feeling of conquest
    -possibility of consistent sex at a reasonable cost
    -status among other men (depending on hotness of girl)
    Cons:
    -since I estimate that only less than 10% of men qualify as Alpha, most guys would most likely have to invest somewhere around 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, every week of the month to achieve only a tiny fraction of the volume pulled by an alpha—and that’s only if he’s lucky
    -you won’t likely get a real >=7. not the internet definition of a 7, but a real 7
    -working to score after working for money is like having two jobs.
    -dealing with rejection
    -dealing with toxic females
    -deadening of soul, disillusionment
    -risk of STD
    -risk of law enforcement agencies ruining your life in the event she cries rape

    3) Escorts
    Pros:
    -sex with a real >=7
    -assuming this cost $200, most middle class men would be able to afford availing of this service 3-4X a month without the cost impacting their lifestyle
    -quality sex
    -demystifies sex
    -possible freebies and discount rates, depending on relationship with provider
    Cons:
    -risk of STD
    -not quite a girlfriend
    -3-4x sex a month may not be enough

    Now if you lay out these scenarios to any guy deliberating whether to opt out or not, provided that he meets my criteria, which of the three would you think he’d opt for? Porn? Game? Escorts? 2 out of 3? All three? I can’t speak for others, but I’d argue that option 1 and 3 makes the most sense to any guy who actually has a middle class life, who has hobbies he enjoys, and who doesn’t want to spend every night carving through thickets of toxic women just to get a piece of tail. It’s all too obvious…

  35. I dont think guys opting out of the game is cowardly or whatever, it is entirely rationale given the circumstances. Should they try to rise above? Certainly. But not everyone can, those that cant, opting out is preferred.

  36. When women finally wake up from their partying and overly-picky phase and say “why is there no one to date?” you can just tell them that mostly women ruined it (with some help from men). Enough women wanted to waste their most attractive years on other things and many of them will have to pay the piper eventually. Guys get rejected long enough and just tune out and don’t want those women 10 or 15 years later.

    Of course, this is not the whole market since lots of people still get married and so forth but it’s big enough of an effect that it really skews things.

    Just look at Dalrock’s post on how the 25-29 y/o white never-married women % has jumped from 39% to 47.5% from 2007 to 2012 and that same effect can be seen less dramatically in the older cohorts. That big surge is likely going to carry on in coming years since not all will just suddenly be able to marry. It will be very interesting to see the stats come out over the next 10 years and see what happends as that 25-29 y/o cohort moves into the 30-34 y/o cohort in 2017 and 35-39 y/o cohort in 2022. I’m guessing there will be a higher rate of never marrieds in the older cohorts then than we saw a few years ago.

  37. jason

    It’s simple, really: the cost of entering the market has gone up. There are more seduction specialists, they’re better at what they do, and there are no longer norms in place to protect weaker competitors. Beta herbs are making a rational decision when they checkout given the considerable investment of time and energy required to compete for the fickle affection of twentysomething babes. Joe Six-Pack would rather play Call of Duty and keep up with ESPN.com than hit the gym and stay current enough with the scene to banter archly over cocktails. Who can blame him for thinking it’s a bad trade?

    It’s really hard these days to compete at anything w/o specializing, and specialization is *extremely costly* if you aren’t passionate about your specialty. Nevermind the sexual marketplace, *every* marketplace is overrun with specialists who are devoted to their trade/craft/profession to the exclusion of everything else. Dabblers can’t compete, and so many don’t even bother dabbling.

  38. zorroprimo

    In the 50s, it was absolutely shameful to be divorced. People who got divorced “obviously” did something wrong.

    Today Hallmark has “Congratulations on Your Divorce!” cards. There is no shame in divorce, marriage is a joke, and husbands and dads are officially disposable. The government cannot get you w husband, but it can (and does) guarantee an ex-husband, if that’s what you want.

    In such an environment, why wouldn’t so many guys equate women with the stupidest mistake a man can make?

    Fishing, bowling, hunting, travel…there is an entire world out there a man can enjoy. Women are not what they used to be.

    I put my extra money into stocks from companies that make cat litter, and I’ll be retiring in Ko Phuket.

  39. whatever


    In the 50s, it was absolutely shameful to be divorced. People who got divorced “obviously” did something wrong.

    Are you a retard or a liar?

    There was a tremendous, huge jump in divorces at the very end of World War 2 as them b* dumped any man with the slightest war injury or mental problem. Them b* were SMART and went after Better Prospects.

    They were obviously not shamed by the fact the b* and their “sister” b* who didn’t divorce(cause hubby wasn’t “damaged”) fail to mention them EVER.

  40. like world of warcraft, this “game” is a full time job you pay someone else to work for.

  41. Johnycomelately

    Georgia Boy
    Comment of the year.

    “Ersatz family,” I hope that expression gains momentum, thanks for Boston Marriage, never heard of that before.

  42. BlackJack

    “Most of the guys I met seem happy to be virgins and single and do not feel like less of men, infact they come off as more alpha than me.”

    Something like this can mean loss of business for the PUA salesmen. The MSM will not let men actually feel this way and will continue to shame these men.

    ” It’s a win for everyone which is why I’m surprised so many “puas” shame mgtow men. They should be best friends but humans will use any excuse to feel superior to others.”

    Its because the MGTOW lifestyle is bad for business. As much as the PUA talks of big game, that doesn’t change the fact that STDs are on the rise and that it’s nothing for a woman to “oops” a pregnancy trap or falsely accuse a man of rape. NO being an “alpha” doesn’t get you pass from those factors and yet PUAs will seldom bring them up. Men are noticing this now more than ever and are essential going their own way. Funny how feminists too are shaming them as well.

    “A lot of Manosphere guys seem to think that one form or another of MGTOW is their trump card, that women lose if they opt out. I think they’re fooling themselves. This is by design, the Cathedral intended betas to drop out all along. Implicitly and sometimes explicitly, the Left has seen the family unit as the bedrock of repression of female sexual freedom. This is liberalism’s obsession and they’re changing all of society to get it unconditionally. The whole point was get rid of the unattractive men, and give women total freedom. The majority of the men are gradually to be reduced to out of sight, out of mind. Alphas lay, betas pay.”

    If this is by design then why are both PUA and feminists big on shaming them? Why the constant slew of “Man up and marry” articles? Why are men’s groups in general put on a watchlist and considered hate groups?
    Look at Japan today with a dangerously low birthrate leaving women pissed and the government in a panic. Was that by design too?

  43. For me, opting out came down to a rational, cost/benefit analysis. Chasing tail, especially at my age, offers an uncertain payoff for the time and effort put in; it’s not a productive, fun use of my time. OTOH, reading a book, skating, or taking a ride is guaranteed payoff of joy and fun, and therefore more worthy of my time & interest…

  44. ar10308: the keyword is “growing”. My scene used to be like yours, but now it’s huge and has plateaued. Slowly it’s infiltrated by the feminists and PC police type. Now with dance scene pickups, I stick to visiting foreigners or travel to other growing scenes. Enjoy yours while it lasts.

  45. joe

    There are two types of mgtow and pua.

    Those who do it and those who talk about it.

  46. The Scolds' Bridle

    What I propose is an “Attention Strike”. One man at a time.

    Discontinue association with any woman who does not bring a direct and tangible benefit to your life. For those who are required to associate with women, do it coldly, as detached as possible. Starve them of anything even remotely akin to attention – of any kind.

    Show them a stone face at all times. It will get to them eventually. Not so much as a scrap of kind interaction. Be mechanical and cold as ice.

    Sooner or later, the lack of male reaction will begin to take its toll. Women are like camels, in that they can go for incredibly long periods of time with only a small amount of stored-up beta attention, while they wait for the magical leg-spreading alpha to show up.

    They must be starved of all male benefit at all times. Lets see how long they can hold out when men completely abandon them socially.

    Men being nice, sociable and helpful to women has the same effect as if women went around giving out handjobs like handshakes. Men would lose a lot of interest in committing, when sexual satisfaction was so easily attained.

    If you’re not getting something from her, she should be getting NOTHING from you.

  47. Höllenhund

    “The replies speculated/blamed innumerable factors: guys being totally betatized, guys too chicken to approach, packs of dudes who just want to enjoy a night out, declining testosterone, game tactics going blase, selection bias (most guys out on the town aren’t approaching to begin with), porn and video games drying out their souls, fear of public rejections, poor economic prospects, women being too unattractive or too bitchy to approach.”

    All these have a combined effect, obviously.

  48. Höllenhund

    “The average guys (vast majority of guys) get laid through social circle, as they always have.”

    That social circle is much smaller in an increadingly atomized society of small families.

  49. Retrenched

    An old (2008) but good post from Aaron Clarey on men dropping out of the game…

    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2008/10/yes-men-do-leave-market.html

  50. Candide

    The problem with social circle is that, as I’ve found out, eventually you run out of girls to bang. :p Girls get old, girls get fat, girls get married and therefore get old & fat etc. Rarely do you get new blood coming in the same social circle, people don’t tend to let those younger strangers come in, especially those who are a threat to the older hens.

    Plus in today’s world, building and joining social circles are becoming a lot harder, as people tend to be way more cliquey and insulated. “Increasingly atomized society” is the right phrase.

  51. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2013/08/07 | Free Northerner

  52. Titanium

    Do you mean that 60% of the population is introvert? I had always thought that 25% of the population is introvert.

  53. I think some of you are over complicating this. Personally Id rather spend my time doing things I really enjoy, things that expand my mind, my soul and my body. I can’t think of any good reasons to invest in anything long term with women even if I do enjoy looking at them.

    When I compare the effort Vs the payoff + what they have to offer, it never seems to add up. Someone mentioned that they should teach young guys Game or PUA at school? It would be more useful to teach them the complete opposite of that, to warn them about the anti men legal system, the pitfalls of marriage, misandry, self control, paternity fraud etc.

    It is possible that a lot of men are simply wising up and finally starting to see beneath the makeup and nice boobs.

  54. J

    Consider what their goal might be.

    If it’s to sleep with as many women as possible, then they need to be working on their game. But, if it’s to find a woman they can settle down with and marry, then maybe their making the smart move.

    Even if Prince Charming rode up on his horse, most young women won’t even consider marriage, because: “I’m going to wait till I’m 30 so I can start my career, and have some fun, and beside what if I get married now and someone better comes along?”

    It takes a lot of time and energy to chase women (that could be used on other activities). If your goal is finding a wife, the odds of you finding one in your 20’s (your own age or younger) is pretty low. So, why waste your time? Why not focus on the other things you enjoy doing in life now?

    Game women in my 20’s or start a business?

  55. Jenny K.

    Ugh, I feel for these guys, esp the younger guys who suspect something is wrong but don’t really know what’s going on. I have a younger brother in his twenties who reports that girls are “scandalous”.

    I could use you guys’ opinion on this (pls be nice :)). How can a woman, 30-35 (let’s say an 8 or 9 relative to her age group and pretty conservative personality), work w/ the situation instead of against it when it comes to meeting and getting involved with a guy (LTR/marriage)? If there’s this pool of guys, some of whom would want to be in a relationship, that won’t approach or pursue, what can you do to take advantage of that (compared to what other women are doing)? You don’t want to approach/pursue because that would be aggressive; do you just stand really close to them to make approach easy? :) And.. what would a woman have to be like to be inspiring?

  56. Zongo

    ‘Game’ is great, but ‘The Game’ as a lifestyle gets old quick.

  57. Just Saying

    “the things you need to do as a man to be financially successful in life, to move your career forward, and to earn the respect of other men are often irrelevant and sometimes harmful to being good with women.”

    Hmm… I would argue that is not necessarily the case – actually, I would have to say that it depends… Now I am not your target audience – I am older, educated, own several businesses, and actually do *very* well with women. Now some of that has to do with my hobbies which I milk for all they are worth to meet new women in my preferred target age-group – and I would credit those “hobbies” with providing me the raw material (young women) needed to excel in your personal life. But first and foremost of my skills is the ability to read/understand/utilize body-language and understand psychology – rather than wasting my time “listening” to what is said, I “listen” to what is not-said and communicated through actions.

    Those simple things have benefited me in many ways in both business and my personal life. This is why I will tell young men – never waste time listening to what a woman says – look at what she does. The same is true in life – don’t listen to words, they are cheap and the biggest way to lie… But look at actions – they will tell you everything you need to know. That simple lesson works in business, your personal life, and politics… And I lump politics in with business as I move in those circles. There are more than a few politicians whom I know who will lie to you while swearing it is the truth – they are easy to pick-out. There are others – fewer all the time – that if they look you in the eye and shake your hand, it’s better than any contract a slimy lawyer can come up with. None of those are women – that’s because women can lie and honestly believe the lie they are telling, even if you can prove it’s a lie by looking at their past-actions. That isn’t their fault – it’s just how they are wired – but if you don’t “listen” to words, but instead listen to actions – it works for anyone and everyone. Your mileage may vary…

  58. Just Saying,

    Thanks for leaving a comment but I have to say I can’t really make heads or tails out of it.

    “I would argue that is not necessarily the case”

    Providing one data point doesn’t “disprove” a caveat statement like the one I made. My assertion already includes “this is not necessarily the case.” Your entire self-congratulatory comment is orthogonal to the point I made, which to repeat is that many of things men are compelled to do for status among males or the security of their own lifestyle can (in many cases but not all) hurt your chances with women.

    I’ll flesh out the assertion. Generally speaking, being a good friend to other males has very little transfer to being successful with women. Fitting in and performing on your work team, as a humble cog in a larger machine, generally has nothing to do with being successful with women, where cultivating an outsized sense of one’s own importance has great benefit. Saving your pennies away to become financially secure conflicts with spending your money on women or spending it to create an image and lifestyle that many women find alluring. It is for these reasons that scores of paper-successful men find themselves without passionate female companionship. It’s not that they’ve been cheated, it’s just that they’ve been doing things that either hinder their chances or have nothing to do with it at all. They are kind of confused because society told them that women want XYZ, and now that they have XYZ they aren’t seeing the bounty of female attention that the jocks and musicians and whatnot (guys who never had X Y or Z at any point) got when the girls were in their fecund youth. No one’s entitled, but these guys were pretty much told that like a blackjack strategy, they’d eventually hit the jackpot one way or another.

    The core question of this post, really, is whether a significant group of men are now simply not even bothering to play a game they think they will lose. I neither criticize nor praise their choices; knowing is the whole battle for me.

    If your argument is “I have skills that help me benefit at work AND with women,” that again is situational – many men do not work in jobs where persuading and leading people are core skills and so their work skills do not benefit their romantic lives – and in any case doesn’t have a lot of bearing on the assertion in play. Only a categorical proof is felled by a counterexample.

    “Now I am not your target audience – I am older, educated, own several businesses, and actually do *very* well with women.”

    This is your first comment on this blog; I’m not really sure how you know so well the “target audience” of a blog where I just write up stuff I am interested in and let people read it at their leisure. Maybe you’re coming from reddit/r/thebluepill and the “you’re just a bunch of fat bums who can’t get laid” angle?

    I’m not meaning to pick on you, but almost every post has a comment like this – where the commenter expresses disagreement with something in the post, but then provides no counterargument that actually relates to the point they are disagreeing with.

  59. Georgia Boy, great comments all around. I lol’d: “I’ve become more convinced lately that we are nowhere near Peak Cad.” It’s scary to think about the never-married rates going forward for the next ten years, if only because it fortells a heaping helping of those shitty “man up!” articles from women crossing the 30 threshold wondering where they cash their notches in for a husband.

  60. Wonderful press Badger.

  61. Stark

    @jUSTSAYING: What hobbies are you talking about?

  62. TZ

    Short story long. Seeing a lot of this opting out, going on strike (read the exceedingly average book), decline/death of marriage(tbd/?) lately, which is interesting as I find myself in the thick of “it”. For the most part I have opted out. I keep the keen eye and ear out but in terms of direct investment, I’m not engaged in the market.

    I liken it to being in the casino, but electing to not sit down at the tables. In fact my take on gambling is similar. The ‘entertainment’ factor is just not there and the odds are stacked against me so I just don’t see it as a valuable investment of my time and money. Sure when you are winning, you might get some arm candy, some ego stoke, some high-fives from your bros. But the reality is that you are only winnING; you have not won.

    You can arm yourself with some strategy (game), some experience (approaching), but the short game is unforgiving as hell and the long game requires your sustained participation and willingness to take regular losses as well as ongoing investments. Sure, those losses get easier to take over time and the mouse hitting the bar may be more motivated by randomness; but only to the extent the intervals do not get too long between, the ‘reward” holds its value, and the work (hitting the bar) does not require additional investment. IMO, none of these hold up in the real life SMP over time.

    Even if you are winning re: getting sex and/or bites at the relationship apple your Alpha may still be negative relative to the risks/cost borne to get there. Over time, maintaining that positive alpha is more difficult because the system is designed for you to fail. The random sex along the way (the “reward”) diminishes. Something must give. We can decrease our investment, seek out a higher reward, or go all-in. Yet that silly thing happens when we decrease our investment: we care less and if we care less we are then sliding toward playing less. If we seek higher reward, we are chasing the chase and not the prize and now have to contend with our desire for novelty – a short game. Even winning at the marriage game (all-in) carries disproportionate risk should it fail – at any point in the future…

    And that is part of it: the game really has no end; the stakes just get higher or we stop playing. In a market that is closer to mutually assured destruction than anything else: the only winning move is not to play (shout out to Joshua) But lets say you do. In the doldrums the occasional “free” drinks are not enough to offset the lung-dagger smoke, the sadness, desperation, and the stomach-turning of watching the collective rationalization of how much “fun” everyone is having. Rooms full of people going through the motions, most having no idea what is at stake or what their endgame looks like. With all of that ubiquitous role-playing, the entertainment/fun factor burns off pretty quick for me.

    This is not just a male problem either. I do see women withdrawing in their own ways to. The prize is no longer the man – the relationship – the marriage, it is the attention, the status lift, ego boosts along the way. They ‘go out’ to be seen; they believe they are the prize, but fail to see that if sex has 0 value, their sexuality alone is at best one hand in a long night at the tables.

    And it is hard to ignore the broader economic factors in light of the risk/reward of this dance. I’m 40 and got squeezed out via ‘the meltdown’. So I’m making sausage to keep the lights on, leveraging my old career, while attempting to break into a new field with nowhere near the economic potential. It may not take. It could take a long time. Short of it is that I’m pulling $40k/yr in income riding out some residual dislocation in the market via occasional consulting gigs – which just happens to be about what I would make pursuing my other craft. I’ve got paper status (top tier BA/MS) and a resume the Wharton kids would shoot their nana for, but zero interest in leveraging another 5 years and risk having a heart-attack at 45 to relocate my golden parachute in the wall street ponzi fest. Nope. I’m out.

    So to most UMC women my marriage market status is dubious, I am too hard to label/brand/sell to their besties/mom/dad and my resources (on the surface) are minimalist. So the young and ready to marry segment cruises on by. The other segment is the 35+ baby rabies crowd, to which I am the “good enough” or Mr. “right now”. 20 years of flings behind them? (No thanks).

    I’m too introverted/cerebral to be the happy-go-lucky ass clown that just throws game around for the panty call. But I’m fit, blessed with good-looks (though not ‘tall’), and so I can “get” sex on the random without too much investment on my part. I used to pass on it. Thinking there was some *value* in holding intimacy to some standard like relationships/commitment/love. Now I take it when it shows up. But I’m still not going to sit down at the tables and work for it. As a side note, all of this casual no-strings sex is dumbing down the quality of sex too – despite the best efforts of porn culture; it is often as vacant as those women sitting at the bar molesting their iphones all night.

    So I’m underproductive economically to the tune of -10x and have no desire to change that – at least for now. And no desire to risk my net worth on going all-in unless she is spectacularly different in all of the right ways. Even so, given how infrequently I meet/see/hear of a woman of the kind of value that would merit that kind of investment, it makes playing the game even less appealing.

    Until then, I’ve got a modest net worth and honestly I’m at the point where I’m contemplating leaving more than just the SMP. Their are a lot of appealing places in the world, a lot of adventures to be had. It definitely isn’t about giving up; quite the opposite for me. It is about finally giving in to my own desire to be happy, embracing my own strength and skill to carve out a life, a sliver of selfish personal investment after 20+ years of doing the “right” thing always in the shadow of something better, blind-spot of the modern woman. I’m taking my chips off the SMP table, going to the buffet, then for a swim in the pool. Maybe she will be there, maybe not but I’m certainly not going to lose any sleep over it either way.

    Good stuff Badger.

  63. NMH

    Good post, great comments. I have a gf but its pretty much a non-sexual LTR at this point. I have had my testosterone checked and its normal…just dont want to bother with the effort. I keep her because she seems to care about me and that’s nice. I find its nice to care about someone else and to have someone to hang out with.

    The obesity epidemic eliminates just about most women from me being interested in them, and the rest are either too boring or too difficult. As I have gotten older I have noticed the more interesting and educated a woman is that harder you have to game her to get her to behave well and that’s just too much work. If you are lucky enough to meet someone who is not obese, you either have to put up with boring trivialities, or a somewhat interesting chick with drama. What a bunch of crappy choices.

    Women are really not worth the trouble anymore. I would rather read books and blogs.

  64. “The problem with social circle is that, as I’ve found out, eventually you run out of girls to bang. :p Girls get old, girls get fat, girls get married and therefore get old & fat etc.”

    I think there’s a slight misunderstanding here. It’s betas, not alphas, that have traditionally relied on their social circle to find a partner, and they did so for the purpose of an LTR, not a quick lay, because betas have traditionally relied on LTRs to get sex. Their problem is that this social circle is rather small to begin with, because as I’ve said, small families and atomization are the norm today.

  65. dave

    Is that what they call it now? Checking out? Maybe it’s just guys trying to have some value by having women approach them. Better to be alone than to approach a woman who is not interested.

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