How And Why Men Are Taught Wrong on Decoding A Woman’s Interest

Candide left a very interesting comment on my last post challenging conventional wisdom on clueless men and cryptic women.

TBH I don’t buy this guys are so thick and girls are crap at showing interest. Years ago, when I first found Game, one of the first lessons I was taught was that women with high interest will make it obvious and easy for you. Girls who show vague / unclear interest are not the ones who have high interest in you. All this head-slapping, facepalming moments afterwards when they told you how they were keen but you didn’t notice are just bullshit from them to get your attention at a later date. I’ve heard that plenty of times from girls, never bought it. Maybe it’s because I’ve seen how seemingly shy introverted girls show very obvious interest in alphas and I’ve also been that guy who gets actively seduced by highly keen women. When they really like you, they don’t let you get away that easily!

Girls know how to get guys’ attention. They’ve had practice for years. The girls who say they don’t are the unattractive and/or super awkward ones.

I fully concur with his sentiment – this subject is just not that hard, I have long pushed back on the “dumb men, crazy women” meme that rues the less-efficient corners of the sexual marketplace (inefficient being code for “people who aren’t getting the partners they want.”)

I do however think a few caveats and notes are in order. (In a shocker, Badger has some opinions on things.)

1a. Guys are “thick” in part because at least stateside, guys are taught that women are fundamentally demure and do not seek sex or sexual stimulation from men, and also that it’s the guy’s job to chase an uninterested woman until she decides she likes him after all (this lesson is pounded in by films, TV and bad dating advice from women). Situations that break this narrative – like girls blowing guys in the back of the schoolbus, or Girls Gone Wild behavior on the bar circuit – is blamed on evil alpha males who make them do it (in the same way that rampant hooking up is explained as “she’s just trying to get that high-status guy to be her boyfriend.”) It is also noticeable that the more sexually “free” a subculture is, the more women focus their sexual attentions on top men, so it’s a paradox that the more men see female sexuality for what it is (e.g. on the covers of Cosmo), the fewer men they see it expressed with (i.e. usually not them).

1b. Most (~75% of) guys have such uniformly bad and difficult experiences with women in their youth that they are predisposed to disbelieve that a truly interested woman is actually interested.

We humans tend to internalize bad outcomes more strongly than good ones (I’ve heard a ratio of 3:1 or even 5:1) so even a couple of bad experiences with a woman who was teasing him or blew him out can cause a guy to acquire a Pavlovian response and stop reading signals correctly.

The loss of a formalized dating culture, which both banded people with their SMV peers and taught them the rudiments of escalation and the bounds of investment, has been a disaster for men of less-than-top status, as they are really fighting for scraps in the SMP playground and are given very few tools to display value and assert themselves.

This even goes, believe it or not, for some alpha/player types – washed as they are in female attention (which to them is mostly fungible and replaceable), they never HAD to develop the skills to attract, pursue and seduce a particular target. And so when they meet a woman they are really hot for in all ways, they might be no better than a oneitis-laden beta boy. This doesn’t happen nearly as much as romcoms make women believe it does, but I have seen it more than once.

Put another way, the beta male doesn’t understand IOIs and so doesn’t know when to make his move (or bail entirely). Thing is, the guy with the alpha-male attitude usually doesn’t really care whether a woman is all that interested, he’ll make his bold move either way and if she’s not down, he’ll move on without a blink. So he doesn’t have to bother to learn an in depth evaluation of a woman’s interest.

2. Girls know how to get guys’ attention, yes, but they also know how to frame it in a plausibly-deniable way, so if the guy doesn’t approach, or his approach goes bad, she can default to a “oh, oops, you thought I was interested in you? Sorry” routine. This also helps deflect criticism from other women who might accuse her of being “too forward,” another way of complaining that she might be undercutting the SMP cartel (despite the hand-wringing of patriarchy-obsessed feminist scholars, most slut-shaming comes from other women).

So the end result is that young men have very little good data, because women can deny (or withdraw) having been interested in a guy, because they don’t want to admit to themselves or others that they were interested in a guy who either had bad game or rejected them. My experience is that women take rejection very poorly, so it’s often the case that she will ramp up that rationalization hamster to convince others or even herself that she wasn’t really interested. I think there’s an old fable about that.

I don’t think this is really a nefarious tactic, it’s just semi-subconscious ego protection. It happens, however, to have a corrosive effect on the development of a healthy and constructive male sexuality, replacing it with repression and frustration and strong distrust of women (see 1b above). In contrast to haters who say game teaches men to use and objectify women, teaching men to recognize and go around the subterfuge is a huge part of getting men to actually enjoy being around women (hat tip to Dogsquat for developing out my thoughts).

I started thinking about this a lot when corresponding with a female reader who told me some anecdotes of her friends going well out of their way to deny that they were interested in a particular guy – like they were all in some intra-gender competition to see who was least interested and emotionally invested in sex, relationships and basic male attention. Whether that’s some “I don’t need a man’ feminism talking, or just protecting their pride that they couldn’t get some guy they really wanted, I’ll never know. Probably some of both.

Discussion of the plausible-deniability angle took place live on this high-intensity post (link to Mike C’s perceptive comment).

As a coda, I do concur with Candide that women who have difficulty actively cultivating attention from men are at a major disadvantage, just as are men who lack good attraction skills, and they need to learn some girl game. Those girls who “always have a boyfriend” are doing something to get it, and it’s a lot more than just looking good. The issue for most men is getting on women’s radar screens at all (i.e. attraction) – while for women, it’s getting the right guys to approach.

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31 Comments

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31 responses to “How And Why Men Are Taught Wrong on Decoding A Woman’s Interest

  1. 1a. For the win.

    “[Alphas] never HAD to develop the skills to attract, pursue and seduce a particular target.”

    This got me thinking. A “particular” girl? I could never pull that one. As a beta, whenever I was able to turn ONE girl, it was me, really, just responding to her seduction and molding to her frame, because she already wanted me in. As an alpha, there’s no ONE girl. The way to have ONE girl is to have ALL the girls.

    “the guy with the alpha-male attitude usually doesn’t really care whether a woman is all that interested”

    Because the issue is not if she is, but how much willing she is to go for it right now. Interest is granted. What you have to read are not IOIs but timing. Timing is important. Interest is cheap. If you move too quick or something, it’s a timing error, not an interest error.

    “he’ll make his bold move either way and if she’s not down, he’ll move on without a blink.”

    After he’s moved out without a blink, wait a couple of weeks and she´ll be knocking his door. 90% of all of my “rejections”. Probably after I banged a couple of her friends.

  2. A

    Yohami speak more about reading timing

  3. mmaier2112

    I hate to say it: Some of us were (are?) REALLY thick. Years ago, I had a woman rubbing my leg with her foot all through dinner one night and I kept looking at her confused. All I could think was “Doesn’t she know what she’s DOING?”

    I had it happen other times, too.

    And if you think about it from Game perspective, it makes perfect sense, doesn’t it?

    Being obliviously in your own world creates utter indifference to the females’ presence, making you a target for them to get you to pay them some attention.

  4. the beta male doesn’t understand IOIs and so doesn’t know when to make his move

    This I can (partially) confirm. Hindsight, illumined by what I now know, discloses quite a few girls and women who have expressed interest in me in fairly direct ways, but I never believed it meant what it so clearly meant. I can think of these major causes:

    * I did not expect females to make any moves, or signal any interest.
    * I did not truly believe that any females would find me attractive.
    * I was fully committed to chastity before marriage, which limited the scope of what I was willing to consider doing.

    On the other hand, I regularly suffered the experience of pitiable girls expressing interest in obvious and embarrassing ways. I quickly figured out how to detect and deflect the IOIs from the pleasant (and even sometimes very intelligent) 3s and 4s. But I had been taught that it was better to be oh so pleasant than to be oh so clever, so I continued to be nice to the fats and the uglies. While longing for and fearing the hotties.

    So: I could tell when the UBs wanted me, but not the HBs. Explanations:

    * UBs are more obvious
    * self-sabotage

  5. mmaier2112,

    Shortly after I first started dating my wife, her sister made an [in retrospect] fairly obvious play at tainting me. Foot rubbing on my leg [in church!], provocative clothing, lots of physical contact. Sis was 18 then, and a confirmed slut already (though I had no clue).

    The sheer awesomeness of my arrogant, oblivious prudery put an end to that particular attempt. One day the three of us went to some local swimming hole, and the sister showed up in a knit string bikini. Skimpy, and very loosely knit, on UB5 who made up for it with a giant rack. I lectured her on the immodesty of her bikini. She was seriously pissed, and left me alone for a while.

  6. Sean

    When you talk about getting on a females radar , are you talking about dressing well, looks etc?

  7. jake

    I’m sure a lot of you guys will have been in similar situations to this:
    Being sat in between two girls in a club, hot girl to my right, her ugly friend to my left. The chubster is rubbing my leg and I keep pushing her off, whilst trying to chat up the other girl, who wasn’t anywhere near as interested. Here the sexual value went chubster, me, hot chick. This is before I got into game, but i’m good looking and natural enough to get ridiculous interest off 5s and below, (went there once and never again).

    –Girls know their place in the SMP, and when you are upstream, they’ll do everything they can to paddle on over to you. Even lubricating their way there by buying you drinks (a complete script flip)

  8. A, “reading” timing:

    Push forward. If she tells you you’re going too fast. Tell her: yes I am. If she asks you to slow down, slow down a little, then push forward again. So I wouldnt call that “reading”. You push forward, she attempts to look for the brake. That’s it. You keep forward while she’s comfortable. If the situation turns uncomfortable, even just a little, or if you see another passenger who would be more fun, you stop the car, get her out, take a new passenger, and push forward. Then the girl you left out will miss the rush and want in.

    Just own your own speed and dont force anything on anybody, that’s all the “reading” you need.

    When the girl is ready she will say yes to all of your advances and be very happy with anything you do, or if she’s not a happy girl, she’ll be very involved at least. When she’s not ready, she’ll need “work”. Whenever a girl needs “work” it’s not worth it.

  9. Sean,

    “When you talk about getting on a females radar , are you talking about dressing well, looks etc?”

    I take it you’re new here. I’m talking about attraction – displaying a high enough sex rank to trigger a woman’s desire for you, where you are on her mind. Dressing well and having good looks are certainly part of the game but it’s a complicated equation, and there are several paths to make a woman tingle. Generally speaking, a good-looking guy with poor dominance skills (supplication, failing fitness tests) will get poorer results in the overall sexual marketplace than a mediocre-looking guy with good dominance skills.

    I riffed on it most broadly here:
    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/thinking-out-loud-what-women-want-a-first-pass/

    And listed some specifics here:
    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/things-you-can-do-to-up-your-gamelifestyle-value-right-now/

  10. Yohami,

    “This got me thinking. A “particular” girl? I could never pull that one.”

    This is exactly what I was getting at in that section of the post. Myself, and a lot of guys, get into game for tactical reasons – “how do I make this girl like me? How do I get more sex from my girlfriend? How do I get my wife to stop nagging me?” The fact is, and all good game writers and especially Athol Kay understand this, that you really can’t make anybody else do anything or feel anything. You can make yourself attractive, and you can engage in bonding-hormone rituals, and you can act in a way that induces people to cooperate with you (with either carrots or sticks), but there’s no magic checklist you can work through to make a specific person into you.

    People with a less than rudimentary understanding of game – those who say it’s manipulative or who tilt at strawmen saying it’s supposed to work on any woman – have not come to understand this.

    “Because the issue [with an alpha] is not if she is, but how much willing she is to go for it right now.”

    There’s a similar phrase among friendly people – “a stranger is a friend you haven’t met yet.”

    mmaier,

    There was a time when I, like you, thought direct IOIs were some kind of inexplicable accident. Part of it was low self-worth, believing I wasn’t worthy of the fire of their loins and would have to negotiate my way into their arms instead of them welcoming me with ecstasy. I wrote about it in the previous post:

    “…carressing my shoulder with the point of her middle finger. In an earlier time I might have recoiled, assuming she had touched me by mistake and even apologizing for being in her way. No more…”

    Your quote: “Being obliviously in your own world creates utter indifference to the females’ presence, making you a target for them to get you to pay them some attention.”

    It has been one of the tougher red-pill lessons for me to internalize, but the paradigm of male indifference and female attention-seeking in its face is definitely true in my experience. Trouble is, indifference as an attractor is a bit of a Catch-22, because once you start paying attention to her, the impetus for her attraction is by definition gone. Hopefully you can capture her long-term attraction with another attraction key while she’s in the throes of the indifference-based – a form of bootstrapping, so to speak. But some women are just driven by a fundamentally unstable chaser’s mindset. They get hot for someone they can’t have, then they catch him, get bored and find someone else who’s unavailable or not pursuing them.

  11. “But some women are just driven by a fundamentally unstable chaser’s mindset.”

    BPD traits. Id say about half of them.

    By the way, these dont lose attraction when you pay “attention”, they lose it when you “surrender”, or when you put yourself beneath of her. It’s not about the attention but about the currency, and who has the upper hand. If she ever has it, it’s done. This part applies to any girl I can think of, BPD or not.

  12. Candide

    My 15 mins of fame! I gotta call mum, she would be so proud!

    I’ll expand 1b a little.

    Let it be clear, I’m not talking about the guys who are invisible to the girls. There has to be some kind of interaction, and since we’re talking about interest levels, there has to be some kind of interest. The problem with the guys here is NOT failing the IOI phase, it’s failing the audition phase that follows. IOW, their follow-up, whether they’re aware of it or not, fails with the girl, so they could never validate the authenticity of the initial IOIs. The naturals who can see IOIs where their beta friends see none are the ones who have succeeded regularly with their follow-ups, so they’re trained to read those signals as such.

    Obviously, the girl has to be attractive to the guy. As said above, ugly or fat girls throw obvious IOIs regularly in our faces and we learn to ignore them. They’re not all that different (wrt giving IOIs) to the attractive girls, as they’re all taught the same crap from their mothers and the magazines.

    What can be learned from this is that you have to be more aware of the phase you’re failing in (IOI or audition) so you can fix what’s not working, and be more confident in yourself that you are indeed attractive enough to be getting real IOIs.

    Hindsight, illumined by what I now know, discloses quite a few girls and women who have expressed interest in me in fairly direct ways, but I never believed it meant what it so clearly meant. I can think of these major causes:

    * I did not expect females to make any moves, or signal any interest.
    * I did not truly believe that any females would find me attractive.
    * I was fully committed to chastity before marriage, which limited the scope of what I was willing to consider doing.

    On the other hand, I regularly suffered the experience of pitiable girls expressing interest in obvious and embarrassing ways.

    Matthew, the bold parts are precisely the point I was making with my comment in Badger’s blog post. Those women in the first bold part were not highly interested in you, so they never made their interest known in “obvious and embarrassing ways” as the latter, “pitiable” aka less attractive girls. Let me tell you that that first group of women would make themselves very obviously and embarrassingly available to different types of guys than you were: a guy who’s miles out of their league, or their dream alpha, or a guy whose resource / connection they desperately need. Yes your sweet innocent shy introverted religious pretty girl next door will do that too. You can observe their shameless girl crush on celebrities (and this shit doesn’t stop after adolescence), hot-guy-in-a-band and the likes, but you will believe this 100% when you get the chance to peek in, or better, be in that “secret world” that some top Game guys have written about.

    A woman with high interest level doesn’t just give up because you couldn’t read her first signalling attempt. She would pine for a man she’s into for years, decades, even her entire life. You guys need to get this “mysterious woman too subtle for thick man” crap out of your heads. If you miss one or two little IOIs and it’s already game over, she was never that keen on you in the first place.

  13. Infantry

    ‘women can deny (or withdraw) having been interested in a guy, because they don’t want to admit to themselves or others that they were interested in a guy who either had bad game or rejected them.’

    Female ambiguity is well documented. One excellent source for more information on this is the game ebook ‘Practical Female Psychology’ by Joseph Went South, Franco (a psychiatrist) and David Clare. Its explained as a survival tool developed for women to get the best result in social interactions with minimal risk. It can really confuse and annoy men because women won’t state their position. The funny thing is that in many cases the women themselves don’t know how they are going to react until the man escalates definitively and forces her hand. Its like Schrodinger’s Friendzone with the girl in some cases also being clueless about the result.

    @Yohami
    “As an alpha, there’s no ONE girl. The way to have ONE girl is to have ALL the girls. ”

    This fits in quite nicely with what Badger was saying in the post with ‘passive’ attraction. Make yourself attractive enough and the girls will make themselves available. But this attractiveness is untargeted, so you can get an estimate of how well you will do with ‘this one girl’ by seeing how girls of similar SMV react to you.

    My game is always ‘be attractive’ (gym, being socialised, well presented), recognise opportunities and cues (through experience), then basic escalation and logistics (These last two can be described as not f$#@ing it up). That’s all you really need.

  14. zorroprimo

    When I first started reading about Game, it was clear from Mystery, Tyler, Nick Savoy, Neil Strauss, Louis & Copeland and Logan Edwards that STEP ONE is learning body language.

    Winning Body Language, The Flirting Bible, The Definitive Book of Body Language, and What Every Body is Saying are four awesome books to get you trained in reading body language. I don’t go into a bar or restaurant without practicing my BL-reading skills. The Flirting Bible is superb, and What Every Body is Saying was written by a 25-year FBI counterintelligence expert.

    Seriously, dudes: Body language is your first skill to master in Game. Your approaches will shoot over 50% increase in positive interactions!

  15. joe

    Badger, this makes a whole lot of sense – definitely stuff I wish I had known back then when I could have used it.

    Candide was right. When a girl is interested, they do make it obvious. It takes a little more maturity than your average college freshman to pick it *and* believe it, and then even more to get by what was accurately called the audition phase. Anyone older than 30 has been through that a couple of times. Any guy hitting his 40s is probably an expert, which is one of the reasons men grow into our advantage later on (it’s more than just status and wealth – by that time it’s an air of confidence regardless of our station in life).

    Getting there is a crushing experience, though. So teach your sons well.

  16. mikec74

    –Girls know their place in the SMP, and when you are upstream, they’ll do everything they can to paddle on over to you. Even lubricating their way there by buying you drinks (a complete script flip)

    Jake, true dat.

    Got to be real careful on this one though. There is a price to be paid if you slum it. Its a major tingle killer for upscale girls if you go downscale.

  17. mikec74

    But some women are just driven by a fundamentally unstable chaser’s mindset. They get hot for someone they can’t have, then they catch him, get bored and find someone else who’s unavailable or not pursuing them.

    Absolutely. The key is to recognize these women for what they are which is short-term fling material. A guy is going to ask for alot frustration trying to turn a girl like this into a LTR/wife.

  18. jake

    @Infantry ‘Schrodinger’s Friendzone’!!! That made me laugh, great turn of phrase.

  19. Candide said:

    “A woman with high interest level doesn’t just give up because you couldn’t read her first signalling attempt. She would pine for a man she’s into for years, decades, even her entire life. You guys need to get this “mysterious woman too subtle for thick man” crap out of your heads. If you miss one or two little IOIs and it’s already game over, she was never that keen on you in the first place.
    ____________________________

    Strong work.

    If a guy is sufficiently attractive to a woman (status, etc) she’ll accept all kinds of flubs. She might even Hamsterize them into positives – “Oh, his apartment is just a little lived-in. He’s too awesome to clean!”. A dude who barely made the needle on her vaginometer tick will get relegated to “not going to work out” by virtue of a single curly hair resting proudly on the rim of his surgically sterile toilet. Might even be her hair….doesn’t matter.

    Here’s another tortured analogy I’ve been wrestling with of late:

    Getting an IOI is like getting a passing grade on a test. You don’t know what grade you got, just that you passed. You continue on in the course. If you got a 61% on the test, you have very little wiggle room to fuck up – you drop too many questions on the next test and she’ll drop you from the course.

    However, if you’re smart and study, you can bring the grade up over the length of the course – the important thing is getting that first passing grade to get your foot in the door. You learn what the professor’s like and calibrate, allowing you to score better and better. You get more slack, more room to fuck up without jeopardizing your grade.

    The other analogy I’m toying with is that of an obstacle course. You arrive at the start of the course with her, but she begins first. If she wants you to catch her, she’ll make the obstacles easier – lowering the walls, making the climbing ropes shorter, having some mud removed from the ditch, etc.

    If, on the other hand, she decides she doesn’t like you as much as she thought, you’ll notice the walls getting a little higher, the mud more gooey. Fuck up bad enough, and you’ll find yourself dragging an alligator that’s firmly affixed to your left buttock across a bed of blazing coals. You might not notice the blood running down your leg because you’re stressing about why all those trucks filled with pallets of caltrops and cinderblocks are passing you, headed for a part of the obstacle course you can’t see yet.

    Works in progress to be sure, but still somewhat apt.

  20. 1c. – Catastrophic rejection spreads laying a base level of fear, and of real danger, amongst all men. Take note of the the False Rape Society blog. I had a fraudulent affidavit filed against me and I have friends who have had this happen to them as well.

    As a new single father in my 40’s, I was capable of carefree fun and still looking for a woman who could make a commitment – right up to the point when that affidavit was filed. It served notice that I could lose everything my life was about for offering, just *offering*, to take a woman to dinner.

    If I wasn’t a Beta ( a guy who couldn’t get laid ) before, I became one then.

  21. rdorsey

    A key rejection for me was when I was about 16. I liked this girl alot and thought I was getting the same from her. I told her, in an extremely beta, borderline omega way, that I liked her over the phone and she, kindly, sweetly, told me she didn’t feel the same.

    It wasn’t just the rejection that hurt and was the problem – it was the fact that after that I felt like I couldn’t trust my own instincts or my ability to detect any incoming attraction beyond a girl straight up asking me for my number, or something really forward like that. Then you start second-guessing yourself all the time. Women pick up on that, and they don’t like it, which makes it worse.

  22. rdorsey

    “If you miss one or two little IOIs and it’s already game over, she was never that keen on you in the first place.”

    The problem with this is that it implies that almost no beta basically EVER has any women in his lives who really likes him. Because the average 35-and-under beta can probably count on one hand the number of women above the letter grade of about C+ who’ve ever shown the kind of persistant, relentless IOI’s you’re talking about.

    And I don’t say this to disagree with you – I think you’re right. It’s just that this is an extremely, intensely painful realization to come to. Most betas intuit it at some point – I would guess by the late teens, some even by middle school. But the glimpse at that reality is far too damning, so the self-lie about women being too indirect and all that takes hold.

  23. Joe Blow

    Jake, if you’re a 5.5, and you’re stuck at a club with a fat, friendly 4 and her 7+ friend, you can stand on the 4’s shoulders to make yourself a 9. First, the disgust may not be the signal you think it is, it may not be directed at you, but at the 4 who is trespassing on territory the 7 thinks she owns. Second, you can turn the tables here thanks to the 4’s unsubtle approach. When the chubby starts giving you the “steal home” signal, wait until she wanders off or if you’re stuck there, ask her to go get you a drink. Be sweet about it, if you have higher SMV she will get it, thinking you like her and she’s going to pull you away from her hotter friend. Then tell the hotty, “look, I’m interested in getting out of here and having a drink somewhere quiet enough to actually carry on a conversation. Your friend seems real interested in me, but I think you’re intriguing and would rather have that drink with you. Either way, the night is young, and I’m leaving in 10 minutes and with some company. If you’re not interested, no worries. I’ll just roll out with your friend, she seems to have a nice personality and I’m sure we’ll have a great time.” Expect a look of disgust, then a look of confusion, then an opening up as she warms up to the idea of commiting a conspiracy against her friend. (Women are so mean to each other…) You can also use this appeal to jealousy to get a date if that’s the way you want to roll but you need to ask for a firm time and place but the opportunity might slip away if you do that.

    Lame & transparent, but this worked for me several times, each time I used it. Probably doesn’t work with really high quality (relationship material) women, but if you’re with some women in a club who are on the prowl, it works fine. Your artificially enhanced SMV with the hotty will be pretty durable, since her hamster will work really hard to convince her that her motivations were something other than naked jealousy. Your callousness and courage here will also boost your SMV with the hotty because it’s a ballsy move.

  24. Candide

    “It’s just that this is an extremely, intensely painful realization to come to.”

    That’s what one feels after taking the Red Pill. It’s not a magic pill that you take to instantly transform into a chick-magnet superhero.

  25. Tdotinthahouse

    Love your blog. Really insightful. Highly readable.

    What do you think about the side of the argument that highlights environmental factors (physical, not social, in this usage) in altering male instincts and behaviour?

    I’ve seen several scientific articles over the years that have pointed to the marked increase in phyto-estrogens in the environment (by marked, the articles make it seem literally astronomical and ubiquitous) as a corollary to the increase beta-ization/feminzation of the male of the species. The starkest example of that being the “grass-eating” men of Japan (high population density, poor environmental record, and plenty of neon lights probably results in an uptick of phyto-estrogens in the environment). Sure, you could argue that it’s just the lower rung of the socio-sexual sedimentary layers being flushed out of existence, much in the same way a trombone player would empty their spit-valve. However, it seems too big of a phenomenon to pin simply on that alone, although it’s probably a part of it.

    In the context of this article, then, could it be that men are not picking up on a woman’s interest because, though their physical environment, they are literally women now in a very corporeal sense? Forget all of the social arguments, and the disaster-waiting-to-happen that is “attachment paranting” (boy, will there ever be a glut of omegas out there. Damn), have most men gotten a raw deal from the womb? In which case, should women even bother displaying interest signals at all given the state of things? The assumption being that if a man is bold enough to approach, they have less of a concentration of these phyto-estrogen chemicals in their system and are therefore a better bet in any case. Just a thought. Great post.

  26. P Ray

    The Red Pill makes you aware that social interaction is never the kind of pleasant, innocent travail that your parents previously said it was.
    I’m betting the teenagers today are becoming even more savvy.

  27. mmaier2112

    Badger: I largely agree with you, that obliviousness game isn’t a tactic you can easily use to much of an extent, simply because it IS borne of obliviousness! The spell’s broken as soon as you wake up to her hitting on you, if you’re not prepared for it.

    On further reflection, I might be able to cultivate Faux Obliviousness Game, especially since I find just about all females at least a little annoying in some way and I can not be pretending when I “wake up” to their attraction and instead treat them as annoyances rather than treasured lust objects.

    This might warrant some time considered as a mental exercise if nothing else.

    My 13yr old nephew has girls hitting on him all the time and he truly doesn’t care about them right now. So of course, he’s hounded by girls. One pressured him into being his girlfriend and he wouldn’t even give her his mobile number for calling or texting. His GF sent out other girls to beg my brother for my nephew’s mobile number!

    It’s funny now, but I feel for him because he’s going to wake up to wanting them and then he’s going to be screwed.

  28. Candide

    Obliviousness is beta silliness.

    You want something like Amused Indifference. You do notice her showing interest, but you’re amused rather than worked up or turned on i.e the frame is: she needs to try harder.

  29. mmaier2112

    Obliviousness isn’t “beta silliness”… it’s simply not noticing the presence (or lack of same) of a female or females. I often get lost in thought, sometimes to an absurd degree.

    In other words, I already have unintentional indifference. If I can un-noticeably roll the “in my own world” thing into the “Oh, how cute! You really think should I CARE that you’re here?” thing, it would have the same effect. Especially when the hotter the girl is, the more she usually demands your attention to some degree anyway, if only to dismiss it as unworthy.

    That’s more what I meant by “Faux Obliviousness”. And I really don’t think that would be too difficult. I’m pretty good at Asshole Game already. Now if I could only jettison my conscience…

  30. Nice.

    I’ve been saying this for as long as I’ve been blogging. It’s the proverbial “dead horse” on my site. I can deconstruct a womans attraction in less than a minute.

    From there it’s a matter of leading her via whatever frame I choose to provide. And what a lot of men don’t get- is that women LOVE following a man that knows his shit. Supplication and jumping through hoops just gets him unanswered texts.

  31. Pingback: Linkage is Good for You: Week of May 27, 2012

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