Deti on “The Cliff”

A while back on a particular lively thread at bbsezmore, commenter Uncalledfor mused on the very thin line between love and hate when it comes to women’s attraction to men:

Regardless of the numerical specifics, I think the point Roissy is making is that men need to inculcate habits to steer themselves away from beta-dom. Offering romantic gestures on a 1-for-1 basis may be safe, but it’s like walking the edge of the cliff: one step over the line, to where he’s being more affectionate than she is, will flip the “over-eager supplicator” switch in the mind of her opinion of him, and after that he’s utterly lost; catastrophic fail. Better to be safe and hang back with a palpable safety margin; that’s the essence of the Roissian advice, I think.

He then followed up later in discussion with:

You’ve put your finger squarely on the main point of contention here, I think. If we generalize “the two” to mean two courses a man can follow, either (1) palpably, manifestly withholding affection, or (2) giving in to neediness or or supplication; then I think it’s fair to say that the point being made by myself, OTC, Badger and to some extent Bb, is that there isn’t a huge difference between the two courses, as they are perceived by a typical woman. That’s the whole point of the “cliff” metaphor: the woman’s opinion/reaction changes drastically, from desire and contempt, based on what seems (to us) like a small range of change in a man’s behavior. We can go on disagreeing about it, but I hope this at least illuminates the contention.

His description of “the cliff” is expert. I just posted on how George McFly more or less instantly went from loser to hero in Lorraine’s eyes for knocking out Biff Tannen who was trying to rape Lorraine. On the flip side, most guys can recall experiences with women where she suddenly loses enthusiasm for him, stops answering his calls or texts or even shuts down emotionally in the middle of a date. Sometimes word gets back to you, and it blows your mind how petty and inconsequential the incident in question can be. It’s so often just one too many text messages or calling back a day too early, or being just slightly too eager to see her again (cf FFY on dating itself as a signal of irredeemable neediness), or remembering one too many of the myriad details she went on about when you met her (to the point I’ve taken to feigning ignorance to cover up my eidetic memory), or admiring and appreciating a particular woman’s special qualities too obviously.

And it’s always something different, it’s very difficult to calibrate to an individual woman’s code until you know her well, yet the opening phases are where it’s most critical to strike the right balance.

I don’t get the sense it works the same way in the other direction; if a guy is interested in a woman, she has to do something pretty dastardly or disgusting to flip his switch to “off.” That’s certainly been true in my life.

True to his form, the famous deti chimed in on the cliff on another post. Recall that this is a married, middle-aged man giving accurate testimony to the attitudes and experiences of young adults:

If all she wants is a nice guy with no medical issues, there are millions upon millions of those. But she doesn’t want those men.

We write about those nice guys all the time, the 80% of men who can’t even get a woman to share a Seven and Seven with them after work on a Tuesday night. These are men who are practically BEGGING to spend their cash and time with these women, who turn up their noses at them…the vibe I get from some of these threads is:

“We women want real men! We want confident alpha men who are good looking, in shape, confident with themselves, disease free, have decent jobs, make more $$ than we do, and are willing to take us out on proper dates and spend money on us! We want them to show social dominance, crack a joke at the right time, but we don’t want them to be total assholes! You have to strike the balance EXACTLY right EVERY time or we’re outta here!

“We want them to approach us, but only if we think they tingle our ginas! And we want them to be nice and kind and caring (but only to us) and spend money on us (but not too much or too often because that would mean he’s investing too much too soon and that’s such an icky turn off).

“But we don’t want you men talking about how you want relationships because that’s beta! We want you to be your own man until we decide we want you for ourselves! We want you to call or text us once or twice a week, but not three times a week. We want to see you a couple of times a week, but not every day, because that would be creepy! If I’m going out with you, you better not be seeing anyone else! And we don’t want sex until we decide the time is EXACTLY right for us. We want you to push for sex, but not too hard, because we want to make sure you are interested in us. We want to be the ones who decide when sex happens and where and how and it has to be exactly right and perfect!”

And from the men:

“We men just want to figure out what in the hell women want. We understand hypergamy and that women want men they can look up to in some way. So then I do that, and I still can’t get a date. I lose weight, they don’t want me. I spit some Game, still can’t get a date. I have a good job, still can’t get a second look. I look for “nice women” at my church; they are so ultrahypergamous even St. Peter wouldn’t be good enough for them.

“I grok No Sex Before Monogamy. I believe in it. So I offer relationship. I offer monogamy. She dumps me, saying “I’m just not feeling it” or “I just don’t wanna get serious”. So then I get some Game and I date a few girls and spin plates simultaneously, and some say I’m dogging girls out. I push another girl for sex and escalate, and she rebuffs me. So then I offer a relationship to a girl I really like, and she dumps me because I’m “going too fast”. So what am I doing wrong?”

That’s the mess we’re in. That’s the extreme frustration we’re dealing with. That the complete unreasonableness we’re in. And that’s the frame from which a lot of these comments come.

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117 responses to “Deti on “The Cliff”

  1. FFY

    Very good stuff.

    “The Cliff” is an excellent description. As is the advice of hanging back off the edge as far as feasible.

    It is always better to lose a girl by withholding too much emotionally and being maybe a little bit more of a dick than is required, than to lose a girl by being needy or supplicating.

    Oftentimes, the girls that withdrew because you were a dick can be salvaged. Some nice words, show you do actually care a little, boom, you’re back in while maintaining hand.

    A girl you beta’d out on- No. Tingles once lost are almost always impossible to regenerate. Few levels of preselection or reputation can reverse it. Been there, tried that.

    So yeah, less is more. Tying into deti’s point as well- As long as women will have checklists miles long, and a penchant for men who could give a shit about their checklists and prefer to generate raw attraction instead, being the person who withholds more will always win out. The best way to balance The Cliff is to get the fuck away from it, at least for the initial stages of the relationship.

    As the relationship goes on, she will beckon you towards the edge. (I’m imagining a ghost floating in the air off the edge, motioning for you to join her haha) .Necessity will beckon you towards the edge. The edge represents true relationship happiness, the balance of dominance/aloofness (the ground) and emotional connection (the void). You can’t build true bonds with your woman if you are hanging back all the time. Thus, you will be forced to creep ever so slowly to it’s edge.

    In keeping with the cliff analogy, where you should stand respective of the cliff’s edge is largely based on where she is floating. If she is aloof, floating off distantly while beckoning you to the edge, the trap is to chase her, to try to get closer to her. Oops, you fell off the cliff. Donezo.

    If she is close to the edge, you can be close to the edge. It’s safe to allow more emotional connection, and you can be together without falling off the edge. Yay, emotional bonding, each of you desires closeness. Congrats.

    Always be sure she is drifting closer, though, before you take a step towards the edge. She has to earn every step of the way from you.

    Geezeo I need to go to bed. Tiredness breeds wordiness. Hopefully that made sense.

  2. Stingray

    Holy crap. Deti nailed it. I feel for you men. I really do. Relationship oriented women want (and I would argue even many of the sluts, they just don’t know how to wait for it) exactly what Deti said. It sounds awful and I guess it is today. Back in the day, before the feminists pushed women into giving it up for free, it made a lot more sense for a woman to be like this, as it offered her some protection from serious pain. Now, it sounds trite and vapid, especially when a guy can go get laid with virtually no strings attached if he turns up the asshole.

    I fear for my children.

  3. Attracting a woman has turned into a game of chance. Once upon a time it was easy for a decent man to snag a decent woman with the system more or less automatically sorting people by ideal match and social class. By simply working hard and keeping in shape an man could attract a number of women.

    Back then nobody asked what women wanted. They all wanted pretty much the same thing – a good provider. But now that women can provide for themspleelves we are left catering to their wildly-varying and ever-changing emotional turn ons. It is essentially a crap shoot that you will manage to strike exactly the right balance at exactly the right time, hence the need for multiple plates at one time. And this crap shoot, unreliable as it is, is only for the lucky few who’ve learned a little game. Heaven help the poor betas out there trying to attract women by proving just how sensitive and tender they are. They’ve got no chance. I know, I was one.

  4. susanawalsh

    Thanks for the link.

    I don’t know if you saw the second part of deti’s comment:

    And now for the men’s part:

    “We want women who are hot, hot, hot!!” She’s got to be able to cook a seven course gourmet meal for 12 people in 5 minutes while simultaneously cleaning, dusting and vacuuming a 5000 square foot house! She’s got to be nice and kind all the time! She can never, never, NEVER have a bad day, ever! She is not allowed to have bloating, PMS or UTIs! She’s got to get me my slippers, my pipe and a beer when I walk through the door at the end of the day!

    “She’s got to have a BMI of 8 or under with a perfect 0.7 waist to hip ratio and perfect 38Ds with no sag! She’s got to look the same at 51 as she did at 21! She’s got to look and screw like a pornstar and give awesome head every night and every morning! And we men don’t want relationships. We want sex, sex, sex all the time and we want you to give it to us RIGHT NOW. If we bang on the first date, we reserve the right to think of you as a slut, or keep you around to bang you until we get tired of you. If you make us wait more than 4 dates, you’re either frigid, a prude or a bitch!”

    I get that that’s what a lot of women are frustrated with men in this SMP. Believe me, I get that.

  5. deti

    The first comment I made was full of hyperbole for comic effect, of course. The second was for balance, because that is what a lot of woman say they feel about men. That second comment doesn’t detract one bit from the frustration men have in this SMP.

    There is this feeling of walking a tightrope with any woman. You feel you have to do things exactly right all the time. Too much or too little, and she shrieks NEXT!

    Men instinctively know that young women between 17 and 29 hold immense power in the SMP. Too many women have no idea how to use that power, so they misuse it and abuse men.

  6. Fleming

    yes but unlike women, men have been trying to accommodate women.

    women go the “take it or leave it” route (also seen as “If you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best”)

  7. When women took the gloves off the checklist and made it absofuckinglutely unreachable and enjoyed watching men jump through hoops of fire for the promise of ‘maybe’ sex… blowback was inevitable.

    The second part of Deti’s list is the repercussion of the first. Even if men *secretly* felt that this is what they want (and lord knows it probably was in the 50′s-60′s i dunno i wasn’t there) feminism changed the rules and men became more accepting about the slippers and chores and shit. Looks were never the issue, we’d always take HOT if it came our way, but our scale for looks was never so black and white.

    But once women decided to up the ante with the checklists and look for perfection and leave a 50 to 1 ratio of beta’s in celibacyville while chasing douches.. men upped the ante on the checklist too and dropped any pretense of giving a shit about going through proper channels to attain sex through relationship since relationship wasn’t going to happen until a woman ran through the carousel and had her vag surgically re-tightened. Game all of a sudden flipped the switch and reversed the roles and now it’s women who need to jump through hoops of fire and qualify and risk being p&d’d while the men reap. The rest of the men who don’t have time or ability to bother with are already used to having free time and go their own way, it’s better than becoming a beast of burden for an ingrate.

    Every frustrated woman of the SMP should find a local feminist and punch her in the back of the head.

    Deti’s first remark was the ground zero cause of the SMP in today’s form, his second was the correction to market forces.

  8. deti

    I’ve fallen off this cliff so many times I feel like Wile E. Coyote.

    1. I dated a girl in college that pushed me over pretty soon. We escalated quickly to sex, then I started making relationship demands. She told me “I don’t wanna get serious”. Two months later she’s in a heavy relationship with a pre-med major.

    2. The next one was at the start of junior year. This escalated quickly to sex too, but then I cracked a stupid joke. The transformation from kind to raving bitch was instantaneous. Her face literally sank an inch and the smile disappeared in an instant. All it took was one ill-placed, poorly considered remark, and I was toast.

  9. Athor Pel

    Looks like Deti is helping create the wrong frame. Bad Deti, bad.

    Women should qualify themselves to men not the other way around. Men are already responsible to themselves and God, we shouldn’t in any way be responsible to women as well. Anything that sends another signal is not helping.

    There is no equality here. The sooner you accept how God made things the happier you will be.

  10. deti

    Muffman +1. You get the reason for the second list that I posted at HUS that SW then posted here. That second list is pushback against the first. It’s the one alphas are imposing upon women, and…. it’s working, according to them.

    There are a lot of men growing increasingly unwilling to walk that cliff for any woman. Hence MGTOW, hence the wails of “where are all the [good, alpha, attractive] men???!!!” That first list, and walking the cliff, is why this SMP is one in which the currency exchanges are sex for sex, and commitment for commitment, and only very rarely the twain shall meet.

  11. deti

    @ Athor:

    True, the second half of the comment Badger posted is a supplicating frame, and approaches the problem from a frame of supplication rather than aloofness.

    The point is that this is where a lot of men spend their young and formative years in dealing with women. This is because their mothers, pastors, teachers, Scout leaders, and others in authority over them told them that this is how the mating dance is done: You give the woman what she wants, when she wants it, and she will reciprocate with attention, affection, love and sex. As too many men find out the hard way, the painful way, the time-wasted way and the expensive way, this is most assuredly NOT how a man makes himself attractive.

    I received those mating rules as a young man in the late 1970s to the mid 1980s, from men and women who came of age just before the 1960s sexual revolution. Those rules worked very well in a time of assortative mating. Men dated within their leagues. To get sex a man — including the top alpha men — had to get married or at least engaged. Hypergamy was tightly controlled. There were sluts, but they were shunned and operated at the margins. “Slut” was by far the worst epithet you could direct at a young woman. Men who had unmarried sex could expect to meet the business end of a father’s shotgun.

    Those days are gone, and they started dying in the mid 1960s. They were dead and the last rites said for them by the time I arrived at college in the mid 1980s. Millions of men wandered around this new SMP battlefield, armed with the BB guns and peashooters their parents and pastors gave them. Meanwhile, the women arrived in Panzer tanks and the alphas brandished M-1 anti tank guns and AK-47 assault rifles. The best these unarmed men could do was try to find a safe haven somewhere with a sympathetic women who would let him ride in her tank, or surrender and sit out the war completely. A few lucky ones could get behind an alpha and borrow his weapons for a while, frantically trying to learn how to use them and instead failing much more often than succeeding. Most shot off their own feet because the alphas couldn’t teach the regiments of betas how to use the weapons. There wasn’t time or patience enough: “I don’t know, you just use the gun. I’ve always known how to use it. I don’t get why you can’t learn how to use it. Hell, you just point and shoot. If you miss, you go on to the next one. What’s so difficult about that?”

    And so, failing to learn how to use an alpha’s weapons, most simply adopted a frame of supplication, or gave up.

  12. Odds

    Well, I still want a relationship. That’s still doable – done it before, can do it again, with enough time. So, the question becomes, how long can a girl shove betas off the cliff before we decide that she’s not just a deluded girl following the trends, but an idiot with no ability to match cause and effect? And, how do we determine if she stopped because she learned better, or because she got old and can’t get away with it anymore?

  13. deti

    Athor:

    Thirty years ago men were told by their parents and authority figures to “be nice and be yourself”,

    That message is still being sent today, but now it’s feminists who are sending it. What’s pounded into men now from women is “I just want a nice guy who will treat me right”.

    What’s conspicuously omitted, and what these women are really saying, is:

    “I just want an attractive alpha guy who will be nice to me and treat everyone else like shit, and will have sex only with me, and have a relationship only with me when I decide I want a relationship, and he will know all of this instinctively.”

  14. deti

    “how long can a girl shove betas off the cliff before we decide that she’s not just a deluded girl following the trends, but an idiot with no ability to match cause and effect?”

    This is a little off topic, but I have to share this.

    My wife once told me something that wasn’t true. She learned later it wasn’t true only because I discovered it and told her. She said “I didn’t lie to you. I told you what I thought was true, even though it really wasn’t, and I didn’t know it until you told me.”.

    Translation: “I didn’t intend to lie to you. I thought what I told you was true even though it later turned out not to be true. So therefore, I didn’t lie because I didn’t intend to lie. What I said and represented to you isn’t important. The only thing that is important is my subjective intent behind what I said.”

  15. Ted D

    This is the point I have been trying to get accross at HUS with very little success. I like HUS and will continue to comment there, but I fear that the femalecentric viewpoint will never foster this type of discussion, mostly because women really seem to have a difficult time grasping this concept.

    The short version: most women are far too picky, are very demanding, are fickle, and often do not realize that they are their own worst enemy when it comes to relationship failires. Men share the blame too, but mostly because we didnt call women out on thier shit when it first started. I think many men back then either didnt care what women were up to, or thought that life would be an endless biffet of free sex. They didnt realize the free sex was only for the most assholish men, and the rest would actually have to work harder for less female attention.

  16. Ted D

    ” Translation: “I didn’t intend to lie to you. I thought what I told you was true even though it later turned out not to be true. So therefore, I didn’t lie because I didn’t intend to lie. What I said and represented to you isn’t important. The only thing that is important is my subjective intent behind what I said.”

    Which is exactly why it is so hard to have these conversations with most women IMO. Most show a sense of morality that is largely based on feelings and their own perception of the world. They seem to have issues stepping back and looking at the big picture, and as the more empathetic sex, they often show a real lack of empathy for men when it comes to relationships.

  17. Scipio Africanus

    That turn-on-you-on-a-dime thing is devastating. I’ve been through it maybe 3 or 4 times in the last year, or so.

    I’m guessing that at one time women needed to make quick judgments with little time available to dig deep into a guy’s character or capabilities. Probably they discovered that any signs of beta were accurate signals of a guy’s fitness to protect them in that setting (the East African savannahs, I guess.)

  18. Hosstale

    Deti,
    I came of age in the same era you did, and I know exactly what you are talking about.
    When my elders and betters told me to “be nice and be yourself”, they assumed that I would have plenty of opportunities to encounter unattached young women. They assumed the existence of a social infrastructure through which assortive mating could occur. The social infrastructure that existed when my parents were coming of age in the late forties and early fifties, the dances, parties, introductions, double dating, etc., was pretty much non-existent by the late seventies. That system seemed as alien to my experiences as the courtship rituals described by Jane Austin or the Bronte sisters. Yet all the advice I ever got was predicated upon the existence of that social infrastructure.

  19. deti

    Ted D:
    Yes, I like HUS too. But the points you and I make there meet with a lot of resistance because they are a direct challenge to the mindset that women should get everything they want from sex and relationships but men have to accept whatever scraps women are willing to throw them. And women don’t want to admit that, whether they intend it or not, this is what has been happening in male-female relationships for years.

    I agree it’s because men didn’t call women out when they needed it. Every man has been in a relationship in which his woman holds a sword of Damocles over his head and becomes a Sex Nazi. The unspoken text is:

    “NO SEX FOR YOU!! You’re gonna shut,up, quit your bitching and do what I want, when I want. And you won’t complain about it, or else these legs are snapping shut and it’ll be no sex for you until I’m satisfied I got what I want. And you and I both know you’re such a milquetoast I’m the only girl willing to sex you. So if I break up with you, you’ll become an incel, while all I have to do to get sex is walk to the nearest bar and pick out a guy I want. So HOP TO IT, BUSTER!!”

  20. Deti, Ted, like HUS too, but seems like:

    “women should get everything they want from sex and relationships but men have to accept whatever scraps women are willing to throw them.”

    Is its real tagline. I wouldnt say it´s resistance but deaf ears / ego defense mechanisms.

  21. Stingray

    Ted and Deti,

    We have a difficult time grasping this concept because we automatically take it personally whenever someone talks about women. Most of us have an extremely difficult time stepping back and determining if we fit what is being discussed. Our goto mode is to defend ourselves. That means NAWALT or here’s why we are like that. Most everything we discuss comes directly from our own point of views.

    The other side of this is that many of us are pissed as hell in the way things turned out in the SMP because we never wanted much of what this third wave of feminism is selling. Some even have buyers remorse regarding what the first wave was selling. It’s an almost impossible pill to swallow.

  22. Stingray

    “We want women who are hot, hot, hot!!” She’s got to be able to cook a seven course gourmet meal for 12 people in 5 minutes while simultaneously cleaning, dusting and vacuuming a 5000 square foot house! She’s got to be nice and kind all the time! She can never, never, NEVER have a bad day, ever! She is not allowed to have bloating, PMS or UTIs! She’s got to get me my slippers, my pipe and a beer when I walk through the door at the end of the day!

    “She’s got to have a BMI of 8 or under with a perfect 0.7 waist to hip ratio and perfect 38Ds with no sag! She’s got to look the same at 51 as she did at 21! She’s got to look and screw like a pornstar and give awesome head every night and every morning! And we men don’t want relationships. We want sex, sex, sex all the time and we want you to give it to us RIGHT NOW. If we bang on the first date, we reserve the right to think of you as a slut, or keep you around to bang you until we get tired of you. If you make us wait more than 4 dates, you’re either frigid, a prude or a bitch!”

    I get that that’s what a lot of women are frustrated with men in this SMP. Believe me, I get that.

    I love this. I think it’s hysterical.

    I was thinking about this some this morning and something that struck me is that while this list is obviously impossible almost everything on it can be objectively measured. It is something that can, for the most part, simply be done. Most of it does not have anything to do whatsoever with changing ones personality. One can learn to cook, one can diet, one can clean, one can have nice things to give to the man when he gets home, she can have lots of sex and give BJ’s. While we can’t control what a man thinks of us, we can be nice and kind without really changing who we are.

    Conversely, game is essentially asking a man to change who he has become in his person. It can be a huge change for the better, but it is much easier to take a cooking class than it is to turn from trying to be the helpful nice guy to the aloof man.

    Where I think a lot of women get frustrated and then therefore have a difficult time hearing what a lot of you are trying to say is that they may have tried this and gotten burned by a cad (The cad is the obvious end result of this market place. Still hurts like a bitch, regardless). So they therefore try to protect themselves from that happening again. Or, they become enamored with the sex without repercussions thing and then are pissed that “Wait, there really are repercussions to how I lived my life?”. That is the red pill for these women and by that time, it is usually too late for them.

  23. deti

    Stingray:

    Nice comment. It’s nice to hear that women are worried about this too. I’ve known women who consider shit testing, hypergamy, tingles, withholding sex, promiscuous sluthood, giving it up for hot studs while wait-listing or LJBFing the nice guys they claim to want, and they have one of two reactions:

    1. Oh my God I am such a BITCH!
    or, far more commonly:
    2. NAWALT!! Shame, shame! You’re just a bitter old fat guy who can’t get laid! You need to be more attractive! Man up and marry that slut! Man up and stop playing those stupid video games! But don’t you dare push for sex because that is icky (unless you’re hot like George Clooney and rich like Warren Buffett)! BJs are gross!

  24. deti

    Stingray:

    Here’s the other thing you unwittingly revealed.

    When there is a problem in a relationship, men ask “what is my part in this, what is the solution, and what can I do to bring about that solution?”

    By contrast, when there is a problem in a relationship, most women say “I have no part in this, HE is the problem, HE has to find the solution, and I don’t have to do or be anything to bring about that solution.”

  25. deti

    Ted D, Stingray:

    There does seem to be a growing meme in the manosphere that men need to learn Game specifically to be attractive to women. It all returns to the female-centric viewpoint that men exist solely and only to serve women’s interests, and that’s what I think has been rearing its head of late.

    Anything that says a woman should be consistent (screwing hot alphas after a drink or two, but making nice guys wait or LJBFing them is bad) or points out bad female behavior (slutting it up on the carousel then settling for a beta provider they hate and divorcing him 5 years later) meets with vehement objections or “I’m not like that” or “NAWALT!”

  26. Stingray

    deti,

    It took me a long time to figure out my part of the problem in my own marriage when we would have an argument. I bought into the media hype of women can do no wrong without even realizing it. It was a shocking and terrible realization (terrible in the sense of the shame that I felt) to come to when it happened. I still feel shame about it. Feminism and the media have no idea what they are really doing to women spreading this stuff. I’m not a feminist by any stretch of the imagination, but the things that were just ingrained in me are quite astonishing. And just like there are very few good role models for men, there are not any for women either. When someone IS a good role model for women (and I think this happens with men as well) people rail against this woman as being supplicating and weak, when often times, she is just the opposite.

    I am not trying to paint women as having it more difficult today than men. I don’t think that is the case. Just that, very obviously, we often can’t see the bad through what we were taught is so good.

  27. Stingray

    There does seem to be a growing meme in the manosphere that men need to learn Game specifically to be attractive to women.

    I have noticed this as well. I posited on Roissy once that I think men should learn game for themselves, to make themselves a better man for that sake alone. It was, to say the least, not well received. A few men agreed, but for the most part, they didn’t like the idea.

  28. Stingray, its amazing you had that realization. Kudos.

  29. @deti, I agree that girls should be consistent. She should be just as hard to get for the “alpha” as for the “beta” (using these terms since people vaguely agree on them).

    I’m no saint, but I was always at least consistent, and I’ve never made out with a guy who didn’t tell me he loved me first. I do believe this has made a difference, because I don’t blame guys or feel resentment toward them. I didn’t experience combative dating.

    But I also got a huge dose of the red pill when I was younger, before I hit puberty, because I grew up in a different country and culture. I am not sure what happened to American culture, but it seems like there are lots of lies floating around. For instance, the British system is not superior to the metric system… but people seem comfortable with what they have.

  30. Athor Pel

    “deti February 15, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    When there is a problem in a relationship, men ask “what is my part in this, what is the solution, and what can I do to bring about that solution?”

    By contrast, when there is a problem in a relationship, most women say “I have no part in this, HE is the problem, HE has to find the solution, and I don’t have to do or be anything to bring about that solution.”

    This is pretty much irrefutable evidence that many women don’t want to be adults. When faced over and over again with this kind of evidence it is easy to see how a guy can be forced to have a red pill moment once it happens one too many times.

    And the crying shame of it all is we as men have been given responsibility by God for the women and children of the world but the current legal environment takes away our authority. We have authority for as long the women consent to being led and there are legions of people telling women that whatever they want is ok and won’t harm them. It is a situation destined for the destruction of our civilization.

  31. Stingray

    Yohami,

    Thanks. You should know that it is thanks to my husband that I came to it. He didn’t budge when it came to my irrationalities. He was the rock I needed to be able go through the process of discovering this.

  32. @Stingray, I like the way you think. Your husband may have contributed, but you also picked it up. :)

    By the way, does he post in the manosphere? I think OffTheCuff’s significant other Stargate Girl does. Didn’t know if you were another such pair.

  33. Stingray

    Hope,

    Thanks. It takes two, as they say. I am forever grateful that my husband is the man he is. He has helped me become who I am and I wouldn’t have been able to do it alone.

    No, he does not post. He did once on a forum about women at http://market-ticker.org/ and the result was quite comical, actually. The women there and some of the men did not think much of his comments.

  34. I agree it’s because men didn’t call women out when they needed it. Every man has been in a relationship in which his woman holds a sword of Damocles over his head and becomes a Sex Nazi. The unspoken text is:

    “NO SEX FOR YOU!! You’re gonna shut,up, quit your bitching and do what I want, when I want. And you won’t complain about it, or else these legs are snapping shut and it’ll be no sex for you until I’m satisfied I got what I want. And you and I both know you’re such a milquetoast I’m the only girl willing to sex you. So if I break up with you, you’ll become an incel, while all I have to do to get sex is walk to the nearest bar and pick out a guy I want. So HOP TO IT, BUSTER!!”

    The fundamental reason for this, of course, is that most men, as a practical matter, are operating from a position of practical scarcity relative to peer-SMV women, at least until the early to mid-30s. So, for most guys, it really is true that if his relationship with Girl X craters, he could be looking at a long dry spell (and likely *much* longer than her, even assuming she’s his absolute SMV peer). This is what “sexual power” means, in practical terms, and it’s very real for most men below the early to mid 30s other than natural alphas and guys with game.

    The answer is obviously “don’t be that guy”, but that’s easier said than done. I think quite a few guys have limited aptitude to run good game, and not just the absolute omegas. Of course, it will still lead to an improvement for them, I think.

    I think the real equalizer, however, is ultimately the calendar, whereby the relative sexual power of male/female SMV peers begins to shift around 30ish, and the shifting speeds up as the 30s are aged through. In part this is because of raw sex appeal, as is often harped on in the manosphere. But it also has to do with numbers and female biology. That is, many of the “good men” (i.e., guys who are both sexy and good mate/dad material) are already married by that time — so, numerically, the game starts to turn *against * women who are getting into “settling down” mode at that time. So, they find themselves looking at guys who have some of the pieces but not all of them — not necessarily the classic “beta provider” type, but guys who have a mix of qualities but less attractive overall than the guy she passed on when she was 24 because she wanted to find herself (and who is now married to someone else). Some women take the bargain, but of course this is only indicative of their waning power — no such bargains would have been made at the height of her power at, say 24. Some women don’t take the bargain and go the Kate Bolick route as a result — at 39, it would appear that all of the guys she finds attractive enough are either already married or are basking in their huge sexual power as evidenced by their own open disinterest in commitment. She isn’t willing to make the bargain, and is instead “making do” by claiming she is happy being single (while at the same time writing somewhat wistful articles about the same thing).

    Ultimately this has to do with power. The SMP market is like any other, and market participants have differing levels of market power. For the average guy, the calendar is his best friend, plus learning some rudiments of game and at least taking the red pill. For the average woman, picking a good available guy around 24ish is her best friend, but, alas, this is becoming rarer, as choices are made on the basis of presumed continued market power (e.g., Bolick’s reference to her assumption that great men would always be available to marry her and her peers), which is an illusion. The calendar is a guy’s best friend, and a girl’s worst enemy, all protestation to the contrary notwithstanding, really.

  35. Reality Check

    “1. Oh my God I am such a BITCH!”

    Bird’s Eye View: Regrets Of An Old Feminist Hag…

    … I hate the world for teaching me those lessons. I remember complaining about how my husband never grew up. But as the tears streamed down my face, I came to the conclusion that I had never grown up. I never learned about compromise, trust, tolerance, niceness. I was a bitch, pure and simple. I know now that being a bitch is not about strength or independence. Being a bitch is about being repellent, unpleasant, unhappy, and lonely. Being a bitch is nothing more than being a spoiled princess who is too selfish or stupid to accept the joy in life.

    I had become a fat, unpleasant, middle-aged princess because I had refused to grow up. Sure, I had taken on grown-up responsibilities (marriage, career, house, motherhood) but at the core of my psyche was a 13-year-old girl who stamped her feet and whined when she didn’t get her way. Of course, I had stopped whining years ago but I simply replaced the whining with emotional manipulation and ornery bitchiness. No wonder I was still single and my two teenaged sons spent all their free time with their father. …

    http://byrdeye.blogspot.com/2008/03/regrets-of-old-feminist-hag.html

  36. Ted D

    Reality Check – Wow that is a harsh post. It should be required reading for all high school freshman women to serve as a wake-up call for what may come.

  37. Ted D

    Last comment was me. I need to fix the name that shows on my WordPress account…

  38. Ted D

    hahahaha… the last comment went to moderation. :P

    I’m glad its almost quitting time…

  39. Here’s a novel idea – just find an honest woman that you don’t need to “decode.” That isn’t keeping track of gestures on a one-to-one basis. That feels comfortable with the ebb and flow of a relationship. I promise – we do exist.

  40. Outstanding observations, Deti and Co., and thanks to Badger for bringing them to our attention.

    I, too, have seen the Cliff in action: a good friend of my wife has a relationship with a dude who, on paper, fits every requirement she has. But because he made one joke about her weight at the wrong time, she spent the next two years making them both crazy unhappy until he moved out . . . at which point she reversed the cliff and suddenly couldn’t live without him.

    Cliffs . . . BAD.

  41. @RM:

    You do exist. Mrs. Ironwood is one. But you are a rare and precious thing. Most men these days are better served by looking abroad for a broad.

  42. deti

    by the way, I am REALLY honored to be featured in a piece here at the Hut.

  43. Candide

    I was wondering when we’d get a NAWALT advice….

  44. There’s a reason Deti guest posts on my site. He knows what he’s talking about and expresses it perfectly.

    I had a woman who likes me ask me if I’d be getting lucky this weekend while at home for mardi gras. She was asking me a question she already knew the answer to.

    I thought to myself, “this weekend…..how about yesterday.”

  45. P Ray

    Stingray:
    “I have noticed this as well. I posited on Roissy once that I think men should learn game for themselves, to make themselves a better man for that sake alone.”

    Nope, wrong conclusion. Men should learn game so that they can “defensive date”, JUST LIKE WOMEN.
    e.g. Date many women at a time – there is no relationship until both the man or woman agree that there is, and both behave as if there is.

    Too many men fall into the idea that their good values will be appreciated.
    Newsflash: a girl who got burned by the bad boys -
    1) either didn’t know how to recognise them: so being a nice guy has no value,
    2) or WANTS the bad boys: so being a nice guy has no value.

    I’m needing my dose of NAWALT or “you’re so bitter!”, don’t disappoint me…! :)

  46. Stingray

    P Ray,

    I don’t have a problem with men defensive dating. It makes sense. However, learning game for simple reason of getting women is a different version of putting them up on a pedestal. I am talking about inner game, I guess. I am talking about a man increasing his value for himself and himself alone, the rest of the world be damned. A man that can do this and have the confidence that comes with accomplishing something that he has put his mind to, the aloofness that can follow is amazing. And it is incredibly attractive to women. But the whole point is, he has become who he is for his own sake, not for the women that he will attract. A man like this isn’t going to fall off a cliff, because if she suddenly loses attractions, for whatever reason, it will be her loss and he knows it. Unquestioningly.

    As regards falling for the bad boys, sorry. No NAWALT or “you’re so bitter” here. I fell into the former category when I got burned. Got played startlingly well. I was only in high school though and the lesson was well learned.

    Here’s something that might give you your dose for the day though. In a relationship, those nice guy values are often very appreciated. However, those qualities will never be noticed until the aloofness, confidence, etc are displayed first and are forever maintained.

  47. M.Steve

    @Ted D.

    Reality Check’s post should also be mandatory reading for any young adult male entering the dating pool. “Son, if you don’t handle your business with your woman, you WILL wind up as the ex-husband in this post, and it will likely go WORSE for you than it did for him.” A few well-times negs and a refusal to apologize and defer early on from the husband would have saved them *both*.

  48. Ted D

    “In a relationship, those nice guy values are often very appreciated. However, those qualities will never be noticed until the aloofness, confidence, etc are displayed first and are forever maintained.”

    Eh, my failed marriage says otherwise. I believe all those “nice guy” values do matter a lot, but they have to be constantly tempered with aloofness, confidence, and general alphaness. It seems that many women forget how much they appreciate those beta qualities when they don’t see the flip side of the coin often.

  49. Stingray

    Ted,

    You said the same thing I did. Those nice guy traits are appreciated. But at the beginning, it is the other qualities we notice first. It is into the relationship that we begin to truly value the nice guy. Especially, when it is mixed with the “alpha”.

  50. Ted D

    I just wanted to point out that it isnt just in the beginning that the alpha is necessary. In fact, I think it may be more important as the relationship evolves. I think women often get comfortable and take those beta traits for granted. It seems being a bit of an asshole somehow reminds them of what they have.

    Seems completely rediculous to me.

  51. deti

    “I think women often get comfortable and take those beta traits for granted. It seems being a bit of an asshole somehow reminds them of what they have.”

    Unfortunate, but true. I speak from experience.

  52. Stingray

    Ah, sorry Ted. I took it the wrong way. Absolutely you are right. It’s what I meant by maintaining that alpha. We respect the alpha and we love the beta. I realize this is an oversimplification but I think you know what I mean. We need to respect you and love you. It makes for a great relationship.

  53. Höllenhund

    I find it hilarious – but nevertheless completely predictable, given the female propensity for manipulation – that women like Stingray still claim that feminism ’pushed’ them to do certain things and now they have buyers’ remorse because they’re pissed at the way the SMP turned out. Anyone with a brain and a pair of eyes can understand that the current SMP is the way it is because economic, legal and technological changes have finally enabled women to sexually behave in ways they always wanted to, so they did. And as far as feminism is concerned, most Western women in the past 40 years didn’t care about the details of feminist ideology and probably couldn’t name five important feminist thinkers. The idea that it pushed them into anything is ridiculous. The reason feminism achieved political hegemony in the West is because it pandered to the self-interest of women and basically told them to just do what they want and don’t feel bad about it. And once male legislators, feminists and non-feminists alike, realized that women are a reliable and predictable voting bloc due to them always supporting their self-interest, they knew that sucking up to the feminist lobby is a good idea.

  54. P Ray

    @Stingray:
    Ah, it doesn’t take long for the entitled female mentality, to surface with self-serving poorly worded lies.
    “We respect the alpha and we love the beta.”
    Nonsense.
    You love the alpha, and you USE the beta.

    As another commentator somewhere else points out:
    “But the worst part of it is, it’s not just the sex that women shower alphas with. “Five minutes of alpha” like this article and the posts mostly confirm, is that the nice girls will forever love the bad boy over the nice guy. L-O-V-E. A woman may devalue the man over time, but she’ll never forget his name, how they met, or why he was “special” enough to fuck. The hamster rationalized itself into fucking him and it may make him less, but it will never make him nothing.”

    You’ll accept every failing from an alpha,
    but none from a beta …
    because you want to say you want a good man,
    but at the same time try for the players.
    The woman who says the man needs to be suave to woo her,
    is actually after a player but is too smart to say so.

  55. MuffManMike

    “Five minutes of alpha” like this article and the posts mostly confirm, is that the nice girls will forever love the bad boy over the nice guy. L-O-V-E.”

    ++++++++++++++

    As anecdotal evidence i present to you the last 5 minutes of my marriage for your consideration.

    Back-story. My wife prior to me was in a 4 year relationship with a master player sociopath who enjoyed tormenting her mentally comparing her to other women. She followed that relationship with a tall dark gentleman who was aloof to the point of emotionally stunted, a financial nazi and made her pay 50% of all bills even tho he made 5X as much as her. She only went out with him to spite the player because those two were best friends.

    As i packed my bags full of clothes knowing i’d never be coming back to my happy family home, i put it to her point blank about her quitting on me and her wedding vows with:

    “I gave you love, support, stability. I gave you everything I had. You gave (ex’s name) 4+ years of your life with him showing you no emotion, no love, and no desire to marry you. But you couldn’t even tolerate 3 years with me after swearing vows before your God…”

    she turned towards me, looked into my eyes for the first and only time that night and said..

    “Because i loved (ex’s name).”

    The end.

  56. Stingray

    Hollenhund,

    The economic and legal changes were spurred by what exactly? Men wanting to maintain a patriarchy? Also, as I assume at least some of the technology you are referring to is the pill. According to this:

    http://www-scf.usc.edu/~nicoleg/history.htm

    It was Margaret Sanger who confronted Gregory Pincus, who was knowledgable about reproductive and steroidal hormones about developing an oral contraceptive. She also contributed to legalizing contraceptives in this country. Did she push women to take them? No. Can you claim that she was not a feminist?

    It was not as simple as just economic, legal and technological changes that brought this about.

  57. Stingray

    P Ray,

    Lusting and obsessing over an alpha is hardly the same thing as love. These women obsess over these men because they are hoping against hope that they will maintain their alpha frame and start to show love to the women with the beta traits that bring so much comfort to a relationship.

    A woman not being able to forget a name, how they met, or why he was so special to have sex with is not love, it’s a sickness. Good grief, Roissy will be one of the first to tell you how important beta traits are in a relationship, as long as you maintain the all important alpha. I have said nothing different. I simplified it to women having respect for the alpha traits and loving the beta traits.

    You love the alpha, and you USE the beta

    Is this actually directed straight at me or are you using the all encompassing “you”?

    If, by chance, this is directed to me and, I assume, all women out there, why the hell do you even care if we are all so awful? Prostitutes or sluts will fulfill your needs and then you can tell the rest of us to fuck off if you truly think we are all this bad.

  58. Stingray,

    The guys have a point here. Many women have that one guy that always sticks in their mind. Every man wants to be that guy. Unfortunately he was often some doomed fling the woman could never let go of. That may not be your case, but it’s common enough that we guys worry about it.

    Dalrock has written a few posts about women who could never forget their “five minutes of alpha,” including a woman who walked out on her family because she couldn’t forget her time with the future founder of SubPop Records. It’s a very worrysome phenomenon for guys, especially for guys who were always on the husband ladder and never got the opportunity to be anybody’s fling.

  59. The guys have a point here. Many women have that one guy that always sticks in their mind. Every man wants to be that guy. Unfortunately he was often some doomed fling the woman could never let go of. That may not be your case, but it’s common enough that we guys worry about it.

    I wonder if this is not the key ingredient is not that the guy was this ubber Alpha but that he left her when she was still not “done” with her feelings for him yet. The one that got away creates more strong feelings than the one I kicked out when I already resolved I didn’t loved him anymore. Women usually hate losing or admit defeat the guy that never bent to her wills and/or feelings might leave a lasting impression just for that fact alone, not because he was that attractive to begin with, not invalidating the theory just adding a different perspective and YMMV as usual.

  60. Re: that one guy who always sticks in a woman’s mind

    Many years ago, I read an astrology book that said that the men of a certain sign never forget their first love, to the point that no other woman will ever top her in his mind. I’m not naming the sign because it could start a pointless Not All ____ Are Like That subthread, and I feel I’m already in trouble for bringing up astrology on a scientific blog. :P But I share this because the thought that I would forever fail to measure up to someone’s first love (no matter how much that was just author hyperbole) has made me avoid men of that sign as romantic prospects. So I understand a little bit why men would be worried about any “five minutes of alpha” in a woman’s past.

  61. Uncalledfor

    Stingray, you seem to have your heart in the right place, but this is the kind of thing:

    I am talking about inner game, I guess. I am talking about a man increasing his value for himself and himself alone, the rest of the world be damned. A man that can do this and have the confidence that comes with accomplishing something that he has put his mind to, the aloofness that can follow is amazing. And it is incredibly attractive to women.

    that you should know better than to state categorically. Really, this progression is hardly universal, or even generally true; it all depends crucially on exactly what the “accomplishment” is. Refer back to Badger’s recent post on What Women Want, where he is careful to qualify

    “Mastery in a field of some import or appreciation to her

    Emphasis added. Admit it: no matter how proud the man may be of it or how much genuine effort or talent he’s put into it, it’s not just any accomplishment or mastery that will make him attractive in the way you describe. Some accomplishments are better than others, some confer no benefit at all, and some actually hurt (“you spent all your time on that?”). I’m sure I don’t have to illustrate any examples here….

    Inner self-respect simply does not automatically translate into being respected, admired or regarded by others. This is the ugly, fatal flaw in the whole “inner game” spiel. A man can be perfectly confident in his own talents and abilities in a demanding field, but if those are in an endeavor that women find boring or silly or repulsive then it’s not going to help his attractiveness at all, and your last quoted sentence becomes just a “pretty lie”.

    So, fewer unexamined sweeping statements, please, especially those with a strongly self-serving component.

  62. P Ray

    “If, by chance, this is directed to me and, I assume, all women out there, why the hell do you even care if we are all so awful?”
    Probably ’cause you folks be changin’ the legislature n’ stuff t’ make all fellers y’all doan want, to be put in jail or slavin’ for your indiscretions.
    You forget men pay most of the taxes in the modern day.
    That’s why I care if you are so awful.

  63. Candide

    From Rollo: http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/the-a-guy/

    I added a little bit to that:

    “The dangerous thing about the A guy is that he’s largely a product of her imagination. Sure, the initial sparks came from a real fella, but the idealisation done afterwards is all in her head, and no other man can hope to compare to him.”

  64. Höllenhund

    @Stingray

    „The economic and legal changes were spurred by what exactly? Men wanting to maintain a patriarchy?”

    Men wanting to live better, their wives and children to live better, have more food on the table, have more efficient weapons for protection and so on. Basic stuff, really. And legal change is always driven by economic change, which in turn is driven by technological change. It’s true that only patriarchies are capable of any such progress in the first place since no other system harnesses male productivity. That doesn’t mean all technological innovation benefits the patriarchy. Check out the comment thread under the ’Will the real Sheila…’ post at Dalrock’s blog, it’s all explained in detail.

    „Did she push women to take them? No. Can you claim that she was not a feminist?”

    I’m not sure what you point is. She was a feminist, but so what? The only reason contraceptives exist in the first place is because women, feminists and non-feminists alike, want to use them and are willing to pay for them. Yes, men can benefit from the existence of contraceptives as well, but women have always been the main beneficiaries.

    „If, by chance, this is directed to me and, I assume, all women out there, why the hell do you even care if we are all so awful?”

    Well, you see, dear Stingray, half of the human population is female. I can completely ignore the existence of, say, Chechens if I live in Buenos Aires. I can do the same to blacks if I live in Vladivostok. But no man can completely ignore the existence of women and separate himself from them unless he lives in a wooden hut in Western Siberia or something. Not to mention the fact that women affect my life through the ballot box even if I distance themselves from them if I live in a democracy.

  65. Höllenhund

    @Uncalledfor 12:28 am

    Indeed. I don’t see young women flocking to male microbiologists, computer programmers and mathematicians, for example. It doesn’t matter how dedicated they are to their work and how much self-respect they have due to their professional abilities.

  66. Höllenhund

    Women always expect much more from betas than from alphas and tolerate their failings much less as well. We may argue about the details but facts are facts. And women also want to use betas. Let’s not delude outselves about that.

  67. Stingray

    I am probably not going to have time to address everything this morning. I will do my best.

    Badger,

    Absolutely they have a point. I don’t disagree. My point is that I used the word “love” very intentionally while I was speaking to Ted. What you are talking about is very different than love. I am not saying that this does not happen. It very obviously does.

    Uncalledfor,

    I am not sure I agree with you. Yes, women will come out and say “you spent all your time on that?”. My point is that when what you are spending your time on is more important to you than any woman, when she says this, the man won’t give a crap and will appropriately blow her off. When a man has the alpha qualities and shows that his endeavor is far more important than her opinion of it, she may very well change her mind very quickly about what he is doing. If she doesn’t then, as they say, there are lots of girls on the girl tree. It’s not easy, but I don’t think a man would want to be with a woman who doesn’t respect his passion anyway. One of the biggest things a man can do to drive that respect is to blow her off the minute she dismisses his what he loves.

    Also, apologies, I did not mean to imply that inner self respect will automatically translate into respect from others. My point is that when you put yourself and your obvious accomplishments above others it will be easier for you to command that respect. The work still has to be done by you.

    P Ray,

    There is that “you” again. Yes, obviously women are changing the legislature for the worse. Not me. I vote against those people and very likely will not be voting again any time soon. Women in general? I have no argument with you there. I just find you condescension to me personally quite humorous when you have read a couple of my posts and the one that so got you goat was not even directed to you. I have talk to Ted a few times in the past and I have a fair idea of how he thinks because of this. I chose my words carefully for his sake. Not yours.

    Hollenhund,

    So women entering the workplace en masse had no drive whatsoever in the economic market? It was mostly men who wanted to better their lives and the lives of their family that changed our economy? Then why is it that men demonstrably have less value and struggle now to raise a family on one income? Also, who changed the legal environment to seriously screw over men? The same economy that men improved for their families? I don’t buy it. Feminist taught women this entitlement crap and the women went for it full board. I might have chosen the wrong verb when I said “push” but I do not believe for one second that it was simply the economy, the legal environment and technology that changed the SMP.

    Regarding contraceptives, I do not believe the laws would have been passed to make them available to all women if the feminists hadn’t pushed so hard for the passing of these laws. That is my point. The main technology we are talking about here in the SMP is the development of the pill, right?

    You don’t have to associate with women if you don’t want to and the whole reason they can affect your life through the ballot box is because feminist got women the vote. First wave feminism, as I said, some of us even have buyers remorse when it comes to that.

    Also women don’t flock to microbiologist and the like because these men that you are speaking of tend to put the opinion of women above their own. It puts the women on a pedestal and you all know we do not like that. If they truly believed that their work and therefore themselves are more important than a woman and had the courage to make this clear to women, then the case would be very different.

  68. Stingray

    As regards men doing something for themselves Keoni Galt does a better job explaining it than I do. He wrote this for In Mala Fide a while back:

    http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/10/26/virtual-disconnection/

  69. Stingray

    To further illustrate my point regarding accomplishments and taking so much pride in them that you don’t care what women or any one else thinks of them watch the following video. Some of these accomplishments most everyone would deem “awesome”. Some others people would deed “what the hell”. The “what the hell” ones are awesome in their own right in the dedication, practice, and time they took to accomplish. If a woman can’t see that, then she does not deserve your time or attention and you should treat her as such. I remember Roissy saying something along the lines of an alpha can get away with most anything. He can wear the dorkiest hat in the world and he will feel bad that everyone else doesn’t have one to be as cool as he is. Your accomplishments are the same, no matter what they are. Pity the person who doesn’t understand and then tell them to piss off.

    http://www.wimp.com/bestcompilation/

  70. Höllenhund

    @Stingray

    “So women entering the workplace en masse had no drive whatsoever in the economic market? It was mostly men who wanted to better their lives and the lives of their family that changed our economy? Then why is it that men demonstrably have less value and struggle now to raise a family on one income? Also, who changed the legal environment to seriously screw over men? The same economy that men improved for their families? I don’t buy it.”

    I don’t think you’re connecting the dots here. I suggest you read these:

    http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2011/12/technology-created-marriage-20-not.html

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/will-the-real-sheila-gregoire-please-stand-up/#comment-29952

    “I do not believe the laws would have been passed to make them available to all women if the feminists hadn’t pushed so hard for the passing of these laws.”

    Women were pushing it even before feminism became a movement, because they wanted control over reproduction. Feminists wouldn’t have achieved anything on that front without widespread female support.

    “Also women don’t flock to microbiologist and the like because these men that you are speaking of tend to put the opinion of women above their own.”

    Which is simply another way of saying that their profession requires strong beta traits, which are a disadvantage in attracting women.

  71. Athor Pel

    “Badger
    February 17, 2012 at 11:14 pm

    Many women have that one guy that always sticks in their mind. Every man wants to be that guy. Unfortunately he was often some doomed fling the woman could never let go of. That may not be your case, but it’s common enough that we guys worry about it.
    …”

    I’ve had several women in my past that threw themselves at me. They had it bad for me, I was their obsession. It was creepy as hell. I do not want to be that alpha target. Let me explain why.

    A woman with an alpha in her past that she pines for I just pity and I stay away from her. I don’t stay away from her because she is spoiled by being with some cad alpha. I stay away from her because she has proven that she is impulsive and stupid.

    Here’s the thing, when they lock on you that fast the speed of it is proof of no frontal cortex activity. She doesn’t know you. She has no idea who or what you really are. You could be a serial killer for all she knows. But she goes after you anyway. That’s a level of stupid I want no part of nor do I want any family I build to be exposed to it.

  72. Singray,

    “I posited on Roissy once that I think men should learn game for themselves, to make themselves a better man for that sake alone. It was, to say the least, not well received. A few men agreed, but for the most part, they didn’t like the idea.”

    This is what most of the men on this thread are reacting to, as well. I think what informs your comment is that despite all the chatter that women want men to “commit” to them, women are turned off by the idea a man would do anything specifically to please women. Women find a guy who dresses well, plays the guitar and cooks because he (ostensibly) enjoys those things infintely more attractive than a guy who does those things because somebody told him girls dig it.

    I think guys are bothered by this, because it reflects the “hair trigger” of rejection women often have for men, and harkens back to the old proverb that the worst thing you can do to a woman is give her everything she wants.

    But there’s more than a kernel of truth in it; women don’t seem to want to be men’s dreams, and It’s the outcome dependence attitude that is pathetic – “I wouldn’t do this if it didn’t get me chicks/I’m going to stop doing it if I don’t get girls.”

    Last week Moxie at andthatswhyyouresingle.com posted a reader question that went “why don’t guys learn ballroom dancing or something else that women like to do so they can be more interesting to women?”

    I answered that if a guy does something specifically for the purpose of improving his lot with women, and the woman finds that out, it’s unattractive and pathetic. Seriously, having been involved in a ballroom dancing community, they went tingle-crazy for men who could dance but if anybody got the image of being there to meet girls, he instantly became a creeper and was ostracized.

    The solution is for men to frame their lifestyle as for themselves, even in the face of incredulity. This is easy for us sigma types ;) since we don’t care that much about other people’s judgments to begin with.

    I’ve phrased it as “don’t let her inside the sausage factory.”

    As to game. The fact is that the entire impetus for the development and practice of game is to improve men’s results with women. There’s just no way to spin it any other way.

    Now I think what you and other women are getting at is something like “a guy should feel good about himself just being able to get women _if he wanted to_, he shouldn’t have to actually get a lot of women to feel confident and empowered.” It’s an extension of the idea that women want the commitment of a man who _could_ have lots of girls, but chooses only her.

    To bring this all back home, I’ve actually found massive benefits to my life from game, _outside of_ my fortunes with women. For instance, the confidence and social mastery I learned almost directly helped me get a job.

  73. Stingray

    Badger,

    You said it all perfectly. Thank you. I understand that what I am saying isn’t nice, or fun to hear, and makes women sounds terrible. I am just trying to tell the truth and the truth is, women find men incredibly desirable that do things for themselves, women be damned.

    Now I think what you and other women are getting at is something like “a guy should feel good about himself just being able to get women _if he wanted to_, he shouldn’t have to actually get a lot of women to feel confident and empowered.”

    Me personally? No, I am not getting at this at all. I love men. I love everything about them. I have admired who they are and what they can do since I was a little girl. I remember that men used to go and accomplish things, anything really, and I would find it amazing what they could do when they put there minds to it. If anyone decided to disparage them for it, that person would be politely or not so politely dismissed. No one would be allowed to stand in the way of what was important. One does not see this quality so much any more. This is what I see as missing. I don’t think a man should feel the need to get any woman to feel empowered. How many woman do you know that deserve this kind of power over anyone and why would a man give it to her? The only people that I can think of that might hold this kind of power over any single man might be his Dad and/or his best friend. A very lucky married man might give this kind of power to his wife, but only after she has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that it would never, ever abuse it. A man should hold this power for himself until another he deems worthy can handle it. That is what I am getting at. I have proven time and again that I am woefully inadequate to describe this the way I wish to. I hope you understand what I mean.

    I am happy to hear that you have found massive benefits to your life from game that don’t have anything to do with women. I can’t tell you how much I respect that. That is the message I have tried to spread and I understand, to a certain extent, the resistance to it. Men want women. It’s completely understandable, I just think there are more important things out there. Though I do understand that in being a woman I can never fully appreciate what I just said.

  74. deti

    I might be making a mistake by keeping this thread going, but….

    Badger said something at HUS to the effect that most women are not willing to admit that they find the Dark Triad traits attractive. I don’t think all women find the dark triad attractive, but I do think that most women find them attractive.

    I didn’t want to believe it, but my experience and the women I’ve talked to bear this out.

    I often use the bad boy rock band drummer or the motorcycle dude with the questionable past as archetypes. You can also use the bad ass lawyer or high flying ruthless trader/Gordon Gekko type. These men don’t care what society thinks of them. They truly believe they are God’s gift to their social circles and/or profession. (It doesn’t matter that they aren’t all that great, or talented, or good looking, or valuable. What matters is that they BELIEVE they are.) They adhere to no moral code other than what benefits them at the moment. They don’t follow societal rules or conventions. They follow the law and rules when it suits them, and bend the rules when they have to. They are willing to use others to benefit themselves. If someone else gets something out of it, great. If not, oh well.

    I’m finding that women are really drawn to such men. They are swimming in more women than they know what to do with. The response is always “Well, I don’t think that’s attractive”. Yes, but there are many, many women who DO find those traits very, very attractive.

    “Well, that’s attractive, but we don’t want those men for relationships because they’re not NICE.” OK, but we men sure are finding out that women are willing to hang out with and sleep with these men. And even if you don’t sleep with them, you slept with one once; and you never, ever forget him.

    I knew this girl who dated a garage band drummer for 2 years. He treated her like shit. She supported his broke ass, paid his past due rent. He cheated on her constantly. She broke up with him only when she couldn’t take his shit anymore. But she still thinks about him. She still fondly remembers the good sex. She says he occasionally pops into her head and her thoughts, though she has not seen him or talked to him in nearly 20 years. She hates him, yet she loved the sex she had with him.

    This goes hand in hand with my observation and description on another thread that just about every woman I’ve ever known, from the most devout church girl to the skankiest slut, has had at least one ONS or SNL where she bagged a man who simply moistened and tingled her beyond her ability to bear.

  75. “These men don’t care what society thinks of them. They truly believe they are God’s gift to their social circles and/or profession. (It doesn’t matter that they aren’t all that great, or talented, or good looking, or valuable. What matters is that they BELIEVE they are.) They adhere to no moral code other than what benefits them at the moment. They don’t follow societal rules or conventions. They follow the law and rules when it suits them, and bend the rules when they have to. They are willing to use others to benefit themselves. If someone else gets something out of it, great. If not, oh well.”

    We actually need more guys like that.

  76. deti

    Yohami: “We actually need more guys like that.”

    Maybe. I borrowed this from Badger who expressed it in a thread at HUS and explained it further in the “Politics of the Single by Choice Movement” post, i.e. The Return of Kate Bolick. I reluctantly agree with Badger that women find Dark Triad traits attractive. NAWALT, but enough are to make it a generally applicable observation IMHO.

    The point, which I did not articulate well, was that my observation tells me that a sizable number of women are irresistibly drawn to men who do whatever the hell they want, don’t care what anyone else thinks, steamroll others (or are at least willing and able to do it), and at least appear able to manipulate people and social situations.

    It looks to me like this attraction trigger appears hardwired in women without regard to demographic variability. IOW it cuts across race, age, SES, educational attainment, occupation. College students, housewives, lawyers, rich women, poor women, businesswomen, waitresses. Doesn’t matter. They all find that suite of traits attractive, from what I’ve seen and experienced.

  77. Stingray

    Deti,

    Absolutely. That is what I was trying to say. Here’s the thing though (and I have said something similar at HUS but I don’t think Susan liked it much). Having the Dark Triad traits does not mean you have to be an asshole. It can absolutely square with being a good man. If I recall correctly the triad is narcissism, . . . agh. I can’t remember. My point is that tempered narcissism is self confidence, and temper the other two and they are considered good qualities as well (though I believe one is psychopathy? Temper that and one might be considered courageous. I don’t know) Not caring what other people think of you and not allowing them to stand in your way does not make you a bad person. On the contrary, one of the many reasons women cannot forget about these men is the hope that they will one day turn “nice” at least for them. Logical? No, but it is what it is.

    One can live their life this way and be a good man. I’ve seen it and it is a sight to behold. The key is the balance of when to use the triad and when to use the “niceness”. I assume this is what men, who wish to be good to others, have such difficulty with. Understandably so.

  78. Ted D

    Stingray – I cant for the life of me figure out jow.that balance would work. I suppose an alpha would feel.the same about being beta, if he ever cared to think about it at all. :-p

  79. Stingray

    Ted,

    It’s all situational. I’ve watched it happen enough times now, that it all makes perfect sense to me. Off the top of my head the best I can come up with to describe it is that the respect or “niceness” is earned. When one earns this from the alpha, he will reciprocate it if he wishes to (on his own terms.) Many people will work to earn this respect and will work even harder to keep it.

  80. Ted D

    Thank kinda makes sense. I dont really deal with people that I dont already know and respect if I can help it at all, which means the people I communicate with the most are already past that “threshold” for lack of a better term. I ignore most people, so I wouldnt know if they wanted my respect or not. And frankly, I could.care less if they did. The people i do respect earn it by respecting me in return.

    Of course, I do have a basic of respect for people as human beings, but that mostly applies in terms of not treating people badly in general. Is that a bad thing? I never thought so before, but it seems like perhaps a weakness. Pretty sad if believing in human decency goes against what is best for the individual.

  81. Stingray

    I do have a basic of respect for people as human beings, but that mostly applies in terms of not treating people badly in general. Is that a bad thing?

    Not necessarily, no. I can respect that. However, I would say a better way to look at it is to have basic standards that must be met. You expect people to be good to others in certain ways that are important to you. When others do not meet this expectation, they are not worthy of your time or energy.

  82. Ted D

    I totally deserve to be called an asshole for my next statement:
    In general I already believe most people don’t deserve my respect. That is partly why I constantly try to temper myself and force myself to a minimum level of respect. When I say I really don’t like most people I’m not kidding.

    Hell, most people you or I would meet on the street wouldn’t even understand this conversation. Not because they are incapable, but because they go through life completely oblivious to why they do what they do. Most have little to no introspection skills, and most don’t care a whit about anything that isn’t good for them. Yeah, not much there to respect. But even though I haven’t been a practicing Catholic for several decades, I still try to keep some iota of respect for “people”. As my time away from the Church gets longer, that minimum level of respect keeps dropping. :-p

  83. Ted D

    Oops I dropped the last couple sentences…

    If I don’t respect someone, I don’t even bother giving them my time or energy. In fact, people mostly tend to suck the energy right out of me BECAUSE I have to “curb” myself when I’m in public settings. There are days I simply do not go out in public because I know my threshold for stupid crap is too low for public safety.

  84. Stingray

    Ted,

    I am a practicing Catholic and I feel much the same way so . . . .

    Also, you don’t have to respect people to be socially “nice” to them. You know, the mindless but nice conversations that can always be had? The introverts worst nightmare conversations? I do that, I just try to keep them as short as possible. It’s different being a woman doing this, I realize but I have seen men do it and if the conversation goes into deeper territory that is when to deal with it as you see fit. This is when the decision is usually made whether or not you are going to deal with the person respectfully or if they are simply not worth it.

    I know this sounds cold or cruel, but it doesn’t have to be. Cracking a joke that the clueless person will laugh at, maybe even nervously and then walking away often seems to work very well. They usually don’t even know what just happened.

  85. Candide

    @ Badger

    “Last week Moxie at andthatswhyyouresingle.com posted a reader question that went “why don’t guys learn ballroom dancing or something else that women like to do so they can be more interesting to women?”

    I answered that if a guy does something specifically for the purpose of improving his lot with women, and the woman finds that out, it’s unattractive and pathetic. Seriously, having been involved in a ballroom dancing community, they went tingle-crazy for men who could dance but if anybody got the image of being there to meet girls, he instantly became a creeper and was ostracized.”

    I’m in a different dance community, but hear, hear! I’ve had this chat several times with the women. Now I’m lucky that I’m a top dancer who has a deep passion for the art, but you know what, I’m there to meet & date women, just like any guy! The new blokes come to me for advices. The women think those guys are creepy because they dare to use the dance scene to meet girls. “Why can’t they be like you, who just loves to dance?”, they said, totally ignoring that I’ve dated a lot of girls in the scene. I asked what’s wrong with that, especially considering how dancing is traditionally the place for singles to meet. Last time I brought that up, I got this “women just want a place to enjoy their hobby and be treated like a human being instead of a dating object” and the best of all – “your thinking is too heteronormative”. That was my cue for shutting the hell up on this topic indefinitely. The girls in the scene who bitch about not having a BF? They can thank those girls for socially ostracising the guys AND themselves for not speaking up. Oh btw, the reason this discussion comes up at all was because, like most dance scenes, we struggle to retain the guys and classes and socials are full of chicks, which eventually we also struggle to keep because they get bored of not having anyone to dance with (the few fellas are worked to death). The organisers keep asking why the guys don’t stay, but they really don’t want to listen to the truth (i.e there’s zero incentive for the guys to take it up and stick around).

    This also reminds me of one of my exes who liked my muscles yet bitched about my time spent at the gym…

  86. Uncalledfor

    Candide: I got this “women just want a place to enjoy their hobby and be treated like a human being instead of a dating object”

    So it’s more human to be a “dance object” than a “dating object”? LOL. After having experienced more than ten lifetimes’ fill of this kind of demented rhetoric, it seems more and more clear that it was the use of this word “object/objectify/objectification” that really embodied feminism’s descent into puerile, atavistic shrieking. Not that I can suggest any cure, just a remark in passing.

    Stingray: Amusingly, compared to what you’ve been writing here, is this new comic feature that appeared today

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/02/introducing-hypergamouse.html

    In case the graphics don’t come through correctly from this link, here’s the short form: (1) Advice-dispensing woman, ie your spiritual counterpart, advises male to “just be yourself”, (2) Male is unembarrassed in revealing his uber-nerdish personal devotions to attractive female, who then (3) flees at top speed. All par for the course, of course, IRL. But the new Stingray-ish angle is to add that — correct me if I’m wrong here — if he shouts after her “Your loss, toots!”, then this will cause the tide to turn, and either the fleeing female will turn about-face and now lust after him, or other females will now be strongly drawn to him, after such an unmistakeable display of self-value and self-regard (since he has followed exactly the direct-quote, never-fail Stingray advice of “Pity the person who doesn’t understand and then tell them to piss off”). Yeah, that’s the ticket; it’s so simple, why didn’t we all think of this earlier?

  87. Höllenhund

    “We actually need more guys like that.”

    No, thanks. The economy is in the gutter already, and the same applies to other Western states. If you keep giving women what they want, you’ll turn into a matriarchal hellhole like Liberia. It’s beta males who uphold civilization. Outside of attracting and entertaining women, alpha males are largely useless, even detrimental.

  88. Stingray

    Uncalledfor,

    Meh, this is my last post regarding this. If you read Alpha Game then Vox has written about what I am saying many times, if presenting it in a different manner. Anyway, here we go,

    1) I did not say “just be yourself”. I said you and your accomplishments are the most important things. Why would you let anyone take that from you? Present it to the world or don’t. I don’t give a flip. It’s your decision. Vox is a huge gamer, he also drinks girly cocktails. Do you honestly believe he let’s any woman disparage him because he finds these things enjoyable/important or do you think he dismisses them outright because he knows his intrinsic value is higher than theirs?

    2) You don’t have to reveal anything or reveal whatever you want. It is your choice. You use what you have accomplished to know that you are the best. Did you bother to read the link to Keoni Galt at In Mala Fide?

    3) I read the comic first thing yesterday morning. Please don’t tell me that you honestly think that mouse had alpha frame. My point is that you use your accomplishments to develop your frame. You did something awesome and worthwhile (even if it is only worthwhile to you). Let people know or not. It doesn’t matter. But use this knowledge of yourself and this pride and present the pride to the world. No one should ever be able to take that away from you. If they do, it is because you let them. If she flees, then as they say “There are lots of girls on the girl tree.” Even the biggest PUA’s out there do not have 100% success rate. If I remember correctly it is below 50%. Of course it is not going to work every time. If she doesn’t like what you have to offer, then you simply don’t let it bother you because it was a problem with her and not you.

    I never said this was simple. In later posts, I even said it was understandable that men have difficulty with this. It’s all about your frame and what you allow to affect you and what you blow off and attempt again. You should never let a woman (or anyone else for that matter) hold the power over you to tell you what you have accomplished in your life is not worth while.

  89. Höllenhund, if you read the part of the description I pasted, you´ll see it has nothing to do with women.

  90. @Yohami,

    I get what you were trying to convey, but i can’t help sense that the fucktards that brought about the economic collapse in the banking industry doing all their cloak n dagger trading and selling of shit wrapped up in pretty packaging followed that description to a tee.

    When i read this
    “They adhere to no moral code other than what benefits them at the moment. They don’t follow societal rules or conventions. They follow the law and rules when it suits them, and bend the rules when they have to. They are willing to use others to benefit themselves.”

    I think of Bear Stearns, JP Morgan, AIG, Fannie/Freddie, etc…

    Scum of the universe.. i don’t think i’d want more of these fuckers around if you ask me.

  91. MuffManMike,

    “They adhere to no moral code other than what benefits them at the moment.”

    Yeah that can have a dark twist – or a light one. The intention of those bankers / investors are evil, so bending the rules and doing what suits them is pretty nasty.

  92. Stingray etc about “be yourself”. I started writing a comment that got too long. Here it is

    http://yohami.com/blog/2012/02/21/be-yourself-doesnt-work-let%C2%B4s-get-deeper/

  93. Höllenhund

    Yohami,

    OK, let’s see:

    “They truly believe they are God’s gift to their social circles and/or profession. (It doesn’t matter that they aren’t all that great, or talented, or good looking, or valuable. What matters is that they BELIEVE they are.) They adhere to no moral code other than what benefits them at the moment. They don’t follow societal rules or conventions. They follow the law and rules when it suits them, and bend the rules when they have to. They are willing to use others to benefit themselves. If someone else gets something out of it, great. If not, oh well.”

    Would you want such people as neighbors, co-workers and political leaders? I surely don’t, even if women want to have casual sex with then, thank you very much. Economies are tanking everywhere in the West, and social instability is spreading. What we need are masses of stable, law-abiding, hardworking beta males who get rewarded for their efforts by society and women.

  94. Höllenhund, when you read that stuff you´re probably doing it on a fixed frame. Which is also the frame where it was intented. Still, the person who wrote it (deti, badger?) is still a good person so he avoided clearly negative connotations.

    For example. “They are willing to use others”

    What does it mean to use? if the quote said “abuse” it would be clear. Use can be contracting and paying for stuff. Etc.

    You place that quote on different contexts and it means something else. As a floaty set of traits, that´s something you and every man should develop. Lets dissect.

    They truly believe they are God’s gift to their social circles and/or profession. (It doesn’t matter that they aren’t all that great, or talented, or good looking, or valuable. What matters is that they BELIEVE they are.)

    Without any implication of malevolous intentions or deception, this is simply self esteem. You need this stuff to aim for greatness. Individuals that aim for greatness are good for society.

    So, Im God´s gift to human kind. So are you.

    They adhere to no moral code other than what benefits them at the moment.

    This is grey stuff. Can be good or bad, it depends on what the “benefit” is.

    They don’t follow societal rules or conventions.

    This is good. Societal rules and conventions are evil / emmasculating / herd type most of the time.

    They follow the law and rules when it suits them, and bend the rules when they have to.

    Gray area and depends on the implementation. There are plenty of bad laws. And good laws. Good rules and stupid rules.

    They are willing to use others to benefit themselves.

    What does it mean to use. Contract? hire? delegate? I guess it meant abuse, which is different than using.

    If someone else gets something out of it, great. If not, oh well.”

    Notice the “great” word there? a real mofo doesnt give a fuck if anyone else benefits and thats the toxic part. The “great” inclusion makes is healthy.

    So I know its out of context, and in the context where this quote came from its depicting toxic stuff.

    Still, the frame is obsfuscating traits that are actually good and lead to some dull conclusions, like your stuff about alphas not being useful for society.

    So, the quote is depicting a person who isnt a “good and well adjusted citizen”. In this society, you shouldnt be.

  95. @Yohami

    The phrase “With great power comes great responsibility” comes to mind.

    All those qualities can make a great person with the proper frame and context.

    Unfortunately human history is rife and replete with examples of men with these characteristics failing to adhere to the frame you set for them and instead live in the grey area or worse, and become the worst of us. And those are the ones we usually remember when we come to associate these traits.

  96. MuffManMike,

    I agree. Evil guys by definition bend the norms, break the rules, etc.

    But so do the geniuses, high achievers, inventors, innovators, athletes, etc.

    The history is empty of good citizens. You only count them by numbers, as in “here lay the 5 million good soldiers who sacrificed their lives”

    What I was saying is, heck, with this feminist-ism going on, we need more male-males. Nuf of good responsible men doing what they are told and piling on the foses. Bend those fucking rules laws and conventions. nuf already.

  97. @yohami
    How many Alpha male friends do you have in your life?
    Had you tried to work with them in a serious project involving money?

    In my country men are not friends with each other unless they are relatives (and sometimes not even them) there is nothing more chaotic, hard to organize and easier to sent a whole business/family down the drain than more than one Alpha in it. They spent more time trying to see who has the bigger cock than to find a good result that benefits both. That is why third world countries usually have a higher concentration of this assholes. They render progress wherever they go.

  98. Anacaona, that sounds like dudes with character problems, not necessarily alpha, but again, which definition of alpha are we using?

  99. Anacaona, that sounds like dudes with character problems, not necessarily alpha, but again, which definition of alpha are we using?

    Dominant males that can fuck lots of women?

  100. Dominant males that can fuck lots of women. In my band, me, the drummer and the guitarrist. The drummer is a pain in the ass sometimes, we call him the captain. The band works fine. It´s been on hold for a while though.

    But see – dominance means power – which usually means you get your way – which usually means you dont have to work around your issues – which usually means character flaws.

    Not that the less dominant guys have less character flaws. But since they are not dominant, they allow themselves to be guided, among other things like allowing others to walk over them. Which might be great for working environments that were created for such thing.

    For work, though, what matters is that the guys know their stuff and can play on a team. Now you can play on a team and be dominant – that´s how you win. Dominance doesnt mean fucking up your own team. You can do that sans the dominance. Passive aggressive types (the opposite of dominance) do that pretty well.

    My bet is that the alpha guys you mention that were a pain to work with also sucked at their jobs and cared more about their cock size than they cared about getting their shit done. I´d just fired them. Big cock or not. I fired a lot of cockless too.

  101. Uncalledfor

    Stingray –

    I should point out, perhaps, that I’m on board with the general equation that “beta = seeking approval” and “alpha = not seeking approval”; [love this distinction -B] in fact I think that’s the most meaningful dimension to use the terms, as I mentioned at the Hut a while back:

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/stop-denying-the-alpha-beta-paradigm/#comment-4211

    referencing an earlier comment at Bbsezmore:

    http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/banned-from-bbsezmore/#comment-1796

    You might find that it rings true, given what you’ve written here (or not; no one else really picked up on it directly).

    My objection has been more that I think you’ve been rather sloppy in confusing what is necessary with what is sufficient. Reflexive self-value may be necessary or helpful in maintaining an alpha frame, but it is far from sufficient as a lot more effort /performance is also required — sort of like, that having a gym membership will not, in itself, get one in shape (in both cases it seems like step one is only the tiniest fraction of the overall effort required).

  102. My bet is that the alpha guys you mention that were a pain to work with also sucked at their jobs and cared more about their cock size than they cared about getting their shit done. I´d just fired them. Big cock or not. I fired a lot of cockless too.

    They were pretty good at their jobs, as long as they did them their own way, which meant that way the system was organized kept getting screwed up by then, try to have five men with five different ideas of how to run the business and all of them thinking they are right. Ironically the more beta guys were hired as bosses since they usually try to make them work without stepping in their egos so the few betas in my country are more likely to gain more money and be bosses because they can make the rest of the team work by keeping the Alpha’s in their illusion that their cock is bigger no matter what. Irony if you ever heard one.

  103. “They were pretty good at their jobs, as long as they did them their own way, which meant that way the system was organized kept getting screwed up by then”

    That sounds like me. Very good at my stuff but terrible at following the protocol, and definitely not efficient under it. But that´s because protocols are created by stupid people, if you ask me :-)

    It makes sense that betas got the bosses job first. Ah so many variants to this stuff.

    I´d better have 5 alphas, each one running a department. Than 5 betas.

    Unless Im a very dominant boss and I want everyone to do exactly as I say. Then I would hire betas only.

    So do you want driving forces or do you want slaves? it all depends on the company and how it operates. Some companies can only work by hiring omegas. Some require gay people. etc.

    The more factory-style and impersonal and burocratic and SAFE, the better the betas will do. If you kill the life out of it Omegas will thrive. Reverse that and the alphas will thrive. Or if you need a lot of nervous energy and chaotic stuff, hire women. And gays. Lots of gays. Excellent energy for some kind of stuff, like design. Horrible for other stuff. Pick your poison.

  104. But that´s because protocols are created by stupid people, if you ask me
    Of course you do *rolleyes*

    I´d better have 5 alphas, each one running a department. Than 5 betas.

    Except that every male in the department is an Alpha too. Alphas don’t trust the protocol remember? Why would the Alpha mail boy is going to stop delivering the mail at his leisure even if there is an Alpha “labeled” the boss who tells him otherwise. The boss is part of the protocol and we already know the protocol is stupid, isn’t it?

  105. Anacaona, seriously? do you have departments and departments where even the mailboy is alpha?

    Do you hear the stampede of women traveling to your country right now?

  106. Anacaona, seriously? do you have departments and departments where even the mailboy is alpha?

    Of course most men in my country consider themselves a god’s gift to women and the world even if they have absolutely no real merits for it. You can ask i’mnobody at Dalrock we are not into speaking terms anymore but he went to my country for a while so he saw everything with his own eyes.

    Do you hear the stampede of women traveling to your country right now?

    Had I mentioned that stampede of women leaving the country to marry foreigners those women don;t want? Please let them go and take them all. I assure you that once they spent a few years living with an overabundance of Alpha’s they will come crawling back to the kitchen and kissing their beta’s feet. Is a case of wanting something because you are not living it. Of course there is always a minority that will like it and want more. “El que por su gusto es buey hasta la coyunta lame” but many of the issues of the SMP is because most women here see so many good men that they have lost all the sense of how rare and valuable goodness actually is, YMMV.

  107. “I assure you that once they spent a few years living with an overabundance of Alpha’s they will come crawling back to the kitchen and kissing their beta’s feet. ”

    haha. If only the betas would take them back!

    Who am I kidding. They would.

  108. Most venezuelan dudes are beta. Alpha is a rare rare rare, rare x3 thing there. Its all white knighting and stuff. Then some alphas everyone hates but still get pussy – even the girls hate them. Yeah the same girls giving them pussy. So that molded my views when I was there.

    But here, in Argentina, while Alpha, or ALPHA is a rare thing (the culture here… is strange, macho, but hyperemotional), 80% of the guys are players. The game is pretty uniform though. Hysteria. The courtship might take a year. Most girls are very sexual but repressed and then they explode in more than one way. I spent a few years trying to figure out how it works and why its so different than Venezuela. Everyone here is damn smart, then they use that sharp tool to carve in every possible freudian problem you can come up with. Aint funny. Its like tango. Full of dissonances and sexual tension but without the joy or climax or resolution. The song ends and the new tormented one starts. Plate “theory” is how they roll here. Anyone has 3-5 plates at the same time – since they take so much time. And pretty much everyone fucks around when they are in a relationship.

    So… I dont know. Maybe you would rank the guys here as alphas too. These guys were a pain in the ass to manage when I had the office here. But because of all the drama, not the cock fights. Still plenty of pussy. Plenty of pussy for everyone if you like the spices they put on top and have the patience or the smarts to work around it.

    Ah cultures.

  109. You put 30 argentineans in an office during 30 days. You throw it some hard timelines and crunch time. You dont give them breaks and dont pay them much. You make your best to make them miserable. Under such emotional circumstances, by the end of the second week they wont have done any of the work, but at least they will have fucked with everyone else, regardless of gender.

    And if you dont provide the crunching miserable circumstances, they will quit the job and find it themselves. Rage sex included.

  110. Heh for all intents of purposes Dominant guy that fucks a lot is in my book and asshole so yeah my definition might not be yours.
    I think is because of the culture clash I heard that Argentina is almost as feminist as America and Argentinian men are joining the Italians into looking for wives in my country so the level of interest in expatriating is usually a good indication of how the SMP is, als we call them “Eurotrash” for a reason. I didn’t knew things were that different in Venezuela though which is odd given they are so close.
    In DR we had the worst kind of mixed males from the very beginning the first ships with Columbus were full of criminals with death sentences, then we had the slaves from Africa only the strongest, meanest ones survived the trip from the ships and they didn’t get education or love for the culture mostly surviving the slavery. We have had a few idealists but they always get killed by the Alpha in turn so we had bad blood over bad blood for century. If you notice we were once called “The Athens of the new world” and we had the first university. Try to find any scientific contribution from DR. I will be here sited and waiting.
    Now to be fair there is a chunk of bad women but they can be easy to spot once you get to know the slut tells. Most of college girls are usually good girls, unless they have children, once linked to a Dominican male with a kid, things get really bad for them.

  111. MuffManMike

    I think it’s time for me to visit Argentina.

  112. Anyone else think Yohami and Anacaona might want to get a room? :-o

  113. @Badger
    If you were bored with this interchange you only needed to say so, no need to insult us. :)

  114. Au contraire, it’s quite stimulating!

  115. Pingback: The Basic Skills Test For Game | The Badger Hut

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