Thinking Out Loud: What Women Want (a first pass)

Some combination of:

  • Physical fitness
  • Social dominance
  • Emotional activation (excitement, connection, security)
  • Access to resources (provision)
  • Mastery in a field of some import or appreciation to her

Talk amongst yourselves.

 

About these ads

78 Comments

Filed under original research

78 responses to “Thinking Out Loud: What Women Want (a first pass)

  1. an observet

    Most of the time, they don’t know what they want. And it they did know, it would be only until the next shiny thing gets their attention.

    I know that after creating a generation of feminised men, they don’t want them either. Hence the divorce rate, at least whilst their smv still deludes them to believe another turn on the carousel will solve all their problems.

  2. Jack Amok

    Mastery in a field of some import or appreciation to her

    I don’t think the field needs to be important to her. More like it needs to be socially acceptable to her circle of friends. If it is, and if she’s attracted to the guy for the other reasons you list, then his field of mastery will become important to her for as long as she’s hot for him. It’s a little self-referential that way.

    So is, for that matter, what is and isn’t “socially acceptable.” For the most part, groups of women will find the fields of endeavor with the hottest, most desirable men to the the most socially acceptable.

  3. I’d say they want three out of the five. Not any specific three, mind you – but if you can show her at least 3 of those 5, your chances are good.

    $0.02

  4. wavevector

    I’ve got a 3-item list for what women want:

    1) A man they look up to.
    2) To feel desired by that man.
    3) To feel safe.

    The first encompasses all the elements of dominance and social status. The specifics of what characteristics impress any individual woman vary greatly, depending on her personality. It does not necessarily require size, strength and athleticism – even the top nerds have their female admirers.

    The second entails a validation of their sexual value and their innate narcissism, while also requiring sexual initiative from the man. Most females are responsive in their sexuality, and need an assertive demonstration of male sexual interest to make them tingle.

    The last encompasses all the elements of protection, provision, and emotional investment that women need in a long term relationship (but not necessarily in a short term relationship). A woman looking for a sexual fling may prefer the opposite – a sense of danger – as that increases the sexual excitement. The clever man in a LTR will introduce occasional uncertainty and hints of danger over a safety net of security, to stimulate the sexual interest of his partner without creating enough anxiety to destroy the relationship.

  5. criolle johnny

    1. Toasted ice.
    2. Breakfast in bed, as long as it doesn’t wake them.

  6. Odds

    A man to feed her ego, yet always exceed it with his own worth. The orbiter/carousel combo is basically how you use more than one man to accomplish it more efficiently.

  7. Here’s the funny thing. I think a woman will disregard all of these criteria as long as the man is easy to dominate or manage. So many women think they’re looking for a relationship but are, in actuality, looking for someone who will pay them consistent attention.

  8. Anonymous

    Tingles.

    - Physical fitness
    If a guy that gives them tingles is physically fit, it’s a plus, but when push comes to shove, tingles > physical fitness.

    - Social dominance
    This is probably a big one, as long as the dominance is in an area that interests/appeals to them. Lots of tingles here.

    - Emotional activation (excitement, connection, security)
    Excitement = tingles.
    Connection = tingles of a different sort, but still tingles, at least for a time.
    Security… only if the guy also gives her tingles.

    - Access to resources (provision)
    Given that women will irrationally throw away a sure thing (provider) for tingles, I rate this one rather low. Like physical fitness, it’s a plus, but the tingles will win in the end.

    - Mastery in a field of some import or appreciation to her
    This often translates into some form of social dominance in that field, so it is also likely a source of tingles.

    In short, it’s tingles all the way down.

  9. Charm

    I’ll bite, but I’ll speak specifically on what I’d like:

    1. A man smart enough to go into a field that can generate a stable income for his future family unit. Doesn’t have to be glamorous, but it’d be nice it he actually enjoyed it.
    2. Not very socially dominant. I like fairly introverted “silent type” men since I’m extroverted and a bit eccentric. I like men who have an inner strength, and confidence, without wanting to be the center of attention. A lot of women want to show off their men, but I’m not like that. If he’s golden to me, thats all that matters.
    3. Someone I can respect. A man who defines himself and doesn’t allow others to define him. (ex. strong character)
    4.Someone who also has a bit of a playful side and doesn’t take all of life completely seriously.
    5. Someone who loves me and allows me to be eccentric self without criticizing or trying to change it.

    I think I have a pretty solid list going.

    Now what do MOST women want?

    Shiiiiiiit. Way more than they have to offer, but I’ll take a stab at what I think most women want from what I’ve observed:

    A man who makes at least 80k a year and has a flashy job title like director, or partner, or lead doctor, or something else they brag about to their friends and family. A man who lavishes all this money on her specifically and could never imagine wanting to even look at another woman let alone sleep with another woman. A man who is surrounded by tons of hot women, but doesn’t acknowledge them because she is sitting there, waiting for him to come a talk to her. A man who is very dominant but also very loving and always wants to cuddle for hours and hours after sex. But ultimately, a man who is willing to be and do all of these things and is perfectly okay with his perfect little princess only bringing her mediocre looks and worn out vagina to the relationship, at which time he will hoist her up on a pedestal and carry her around.

    Also, allow me to add that this man has perfect washboard abs and larger than average cock and after a long day of shooting for his GQ spread he wants to rush home to his beautiful “plump” princess and have amazing sex with her, but of course, only if shes in the mood.

    I was going for a satirical response here, but I think I may have failed.

  10. I like Charm’s list, but with one addition. The larger-than -average penis, can it also be made out of chocolate? None of that hershey crap either, it should be 60% cacao single-origin madagascar…mmm…

    (clearly, inviting Jamie to think out loud was a mistake. Live and learn, Badger.)

  11. NMH

    Its simple really. What a woman wants is a man that is better than her to treat her like an equal. The more ways the man is better than the woman the more she will be attracted to her.

    Yes, woman are that superficial and unfair.

  12. Candide

    What does a woman want?

    “Me.”

    That’s all we need to internalise. File the rest under humour.

  13. NMH’s comment is great, because when I think and dig down into it, it really is a supremely pithy description of many core game tenets. Push-pull especially, but also the periodic shit test and the ability to “overgame” someone. This is because the “treat her like an equal” part of his statement undermines her belief that the man is indeed better than her – therefore balance needs to be maintained.

  14. Uncalledfor

    Charm

    I’ll bite, but I’ll speak specifically on what I’d like:

    1. A man smart enough to go into a field that can generate a stable income for his future family unit. Doesn’t have to be glamorous, but it’d be nice it he actually enjoyed it.
    2. Not very socially dominant. I like fairly introverted “silent type” men since I’m extroverted and a bit eccentric. I like men who have an inner strength, and confidence, without wanting to be the center of attention. A lot of women want to show off their men, but I’m not like that. If he’s golden to me, thats all that matters.
    3. Someone I can respect. A man who defines himself and doesn’t allow others to define him. (ex. strong character)
    4. Someone who also has a bit of a playful side and doesn’t take all of life completely seriously.
    5. Someone who loves me and allows me to be eccentric self without criticizing or trying to change it.

    I think I have a pretty solid list going.

    Point for point, I’ve known dozens of STEM nerds who match this entire list, and who were typically single at least through age 25. If this is actually your preferences, then I think you should be swimming in options if you pick the right venues to hang out in.

  15. Bb

    Uncalledfor is correct, Charm, you should have a lot of options in certain places. Back in my day, guys like that were all in the computer labs. ;)

    You do have a solid list. Matches what I got, and it’s been great.

  16. Am I the only one who, on hearing the question “What do women want?”, heaves a sigh and asks in turn “Who gives a shit?”

    The last 60 years have been all about what women want. Screw ‘em.

  17. NMH

    Hopefully The Badger will ask “what do men want”. And it won,t be rhetorical.

  18. the dude

    Man as an accessoire to show her friends

  19. Charm

    Lol, good thing I’d love a STEM guy.

  20. lakes

    Where DO older STEM guys hang out after work?

  21. Manosaurus

    Women want:

    1. Attention
    2. Disinterest
    3. Stability
    4. Excitement

    Yes, I know each pair seems mutually-exclusive; welcome to Pleasing Women 101.

  22. Abides

    I’ll bite, but I’ll speak specifically on what I’d like:
    [ ... ]
    5. Someone who loves me and allows me to be eccentric self without criticizing or trying to change it.

    I think I have a pretty solid list going.

    Our blogger has worded the question completely wrong. What girls «want» is more or less what “Charm” likes, that is a female-support-unit. Also known as a patsy.

    Point for point, I’ve known dozens of STEM nerds who match this entire list, and who were typically single at least through age 25.

    Sure, some girls eventually marry patsies from STEM fields, after screwing their way through many other men and continuing to do so after marriage, having given the patsy some blow jobs and gritted their teeth through a few fucks, and stopped at that out of boredom or disgust soon after marriage.

    What our blogger should have asked is “what women want to be fucked by?”, which is a completely different question, and a far more interesting one, and it is the one what he has tried to answer.

    The answer to the latter question can be worded in many different ways, and it is never patsies from STEM.

    One of the wordings I like is that the typical girl wants to be fucked by men way out of her league with many options to fuck more attractive girls.

    Which is sort of what our blogger tentative answer is like, except for «Social dominance» and «Access to resources».

    When it comes to wanting to be fucked, a penniless and socially irrelevant minstrel will turn her on as long as he is out of her league and has many other options.

    Where «Social dominance» and «Access to resources» come into play is when she wants to be fucked and married by the same man, in which case she wants someone out of her league with a lot of options who nonetheless commits to her exclusively his substantial social and material resources.

    Since men like that don’t happen, many girls will marry patsies and continue to be fucked by men out of their league. Until they hit “the wall”.

  23. Charm

    @Abides

    Are you saying that every single man in the STEM field is patsy? Every one? Well, if that’s the case then, I’d rather not. I know quite a few STEM guys in college, and at this age, they definitely are patsies, but I’d hope that they grew a back bone, and a strong sense of self at some point in their lives.Also, I’ve met a few “normal” guys in the STEM majors in college.

    What I meant is that I’d be down for guys who were late bloomers and didn’t peak until their mid-late 20′s. People can choose to improve themselves at any time. Now a lot of women are turned off by late bloomers, but I myself am also one, so I’m very attracted to it. But I’d never want to date or marry someone that allows themselves to be walked all over. I said I wanted to respect someone. Did you miss the point about strong character? People with a strong sense of self tend to not put up with other peoples shit.

    Re social dominance

    I misunderstood the definition for social dominance,but I looked it up. In this case, I still think this falls into the first point that I made. A guy who is in STEM or medicine will have more job opportunities and stability than a person who went to law school or business school because those jobs are heavily dependent on the economy. Also, STEM fields aren’t as saturated as others so they typically end up making a good amount right out of college. I know a few guys who were offered 60k+ right after graduation. So, in the long run, they’ll have better access to resources even if their job titles aren’t fancy enough to brag about with other people. I had a friend who’s dad study geology and made 85k a year studying fucking ground water. He put all his kids through college, and owned his own house and let money to his wife when he died.

    Re accepting who I am

    What I meant by this is that I don’t want someone dating me who thinks I need to change a laundry list of things about myself in order to be with them. By eccentric I meant that I beat to my own drum and am/have always been devoid of approval seeking behavior. I’m not a person who cares what others think of me, so if being myself causes people to judge me then so be it. Now, I don’t mean I’m out doing anything crazy. For example, social constructs usually dictate what a person can or cannot do/say in a certain situation. I generally don’t bind myself to those rules. My humor is dark/inappropriate and definitely not “nice”, but surprisingly a lot of people like it. I’ll say what others were thinking but were too afraid to say out loud for fear of being judged. Im very animated and charismatic, so naturally people like me. Now, I’ve dated people in the past that have told me what not to say, like I’m a child thats causing trouble (actually quite the contrary. i have a high self awareness, and can read people like a book, so i know exactly how they’ll received me, which is usually positive) so they’ll try to “leash” me which never works out. If a person has to be leashed or controlled, you shouldn’t be dating them.

    Now, I’ve never been one to expect something of another person that I myself, do not bring to the table. Im due to graduate college in a few months and I don’t want to be married before 25-26 so I’ll have time to build up my marriage worthy resume.

    Lastly, I think a lot of guys should be weary of the women who fucked the wrong men in their early-mid 20s and now wants to settle down. Thats a smart strategy. They will bleed men like that dry so they need to get wise enough to sniff those women out. But I have never been a “slut”, and will never be one. I sat high school out, and I’ve had one bf in college, so I think I dont qualify as an alpha hunter.

  24. L

    What charm is saying is that she is older, and her preferences have changed, hence why she’s posting on a manosphere blog.

    That or she’s ugly.

  25. Charm

    Really? You’re wrong.

    I was born in May of 1989, so I am in fact only 22. I’ve only slept with 2 people at this age. Never hooked up because I never cared to. I got this way because I had a shitty childhood with parents who never took care of me so I learned to survive on my own. At a young age I realized what bad behavior, selfishness, and poor planning lead to in the long run hence I choose to do the exact opposite. I don’t remember how I stumbled across the ‘sphere blogs, but it drew me in because there is a wealthy of knowledge blogs like Badger, Susan, Dalrock and Athol provide to young women like myself. So instead of me reading one or two blog posts, I chose to read everything they’ve written and I appreciate the information they’ve provided. Why? Because I’d rather not lead the shitty life my parents and most of my family led. This is a crime?

    So because I’ve had to navigate my late teen years, college admissions, college life, and (fast approaching) post college life completely alone with no support system, I consider myself to be a late bloomer. I’ve been disadvantaged, due to circumstances that I cannot control because the environment I was raised in. Now, a lot of men especially in the manosphere were lied to, or not given the proper tools to navigate the dating world at the appropriate age, and had to learn it later on in life, so I understand what it feels like. This is why I would accept a man who learned game and gained confidence at a much later age than other men. I wouldn’t look down on him.

    Now all of these things made me into the person that I am today. I had to learn faster and earlier than other people my age. You assume that I must be a worn out, unattractive spinster just because I’m not a 22 year old irresponsible, immature, college “chick”? Its quite laughable to me. 60 years ago my behavior and demeanor would have been considered normal for a 22 year old, now it seems unbelievable. That, to me, is the greatest shame of all.

    So I’ll continue to read Badgerhut, and other ‘sphere blogs and comment when I see fit. If you don’t like it, feel free to ignore me in the future.

  26. Michel

    You’ve had one boyfriend and you’ve slept with two so far. Do the math. That’s too many 60 years ago.

    How are you a late bloomer when you’ve slept with two guys already? A male late bloomer who peaks near 30 is a man who was walked over when he was young whether he had a back bone or not; he was deemed invisible by society on the sexual market. He becomes a late bloomer when he learns game and improves himself according to you.

    Unlike him, you cannot erase the penalty of having slept with two guys in the past. The moment you decide to improve yourself, as you put it, does not neutralize your past. On the other hand, male late bloomers have no penalties to erase in the first place because they never got laid.

    Is it fair to expect a man who is a late bloomer, walked over by young women in his 20s and now with a strong sense of self, to put up with your notch count when he considers something long term?

    Do you see how bitterness manifests differently based on gender? The cause of the male late bloomer’s torment in his youth, sexual drought, is something that extends well beyond the age of 22 on average. You, as a female, have already surpassed it—twice—before it even began. Most of your male peers will continue their drought into their 20s.

    If you hope to pull off a Susan Walsh lite, that is, a marriage as the end goal of your time in the market, then I suggest you keep your notch count to yourself. A male late bloomer would not tolerate that. If he did, why would you want him anyway? He would have no backbone, as you said.

  27. She’s a late bloomer compared to other typical women, not omega males. Isn’t that’s a bit overwrought, Michel?

  28. NMH

    I guess my problem with reading Charm’s comment, or any other woman’s for the matter, regarding what they want in a man, is that in the past I would have read it and say what she wants is perfectly reasonable, as I and the average guy would be able to fulfill her requirements.

    Being now as old as I am I now recognize that although I consider myself an average guy, I now know she would think that although I might fulfill the list of requirements in name, she wouldn’t “feel it ” for me, as the rest of women I met and briefly dated felt in the past.

    The reason is I am missing that essential element that she needs but does not state: the gina tingle.

    So I think any list that a woman makes is kind of BS, and should be questioned. At the top of list she should say that there is a tingle. A man must past the “tingle test” as much as a woman should pass the “boner test”.

    And THEN she will have her list of requirements.And those may change, depending on the guy and how strong of a tingle he gives her. Even more scary: if a mam commits to woman, this list may change through the time course of the relationship, as the tingle may lessen with time.

    Women are as superficial as men, if not more so.

  29. I think it’s a little silly of Michel to get on Charm’s case for her whopping partner count. Scary partner count = 25, not 2.

    On the other hand, I get what NMH is saying about the list. Employed the right way, the “list” can be a weeding tool, used to make sure you don’t get with a guy who isn’t compatible. On the other hand, the list can become an excuse to filter out a lot of people. I’ve seen girls make lists, then make ridiculous plays for guys who didn’t meet some of the core criteria because “he’s hot!!”

    I think the better strategy is to look for reasons to get to know a man, not look for reasons to write him off. Sometimes a guy won’t check every single box on your list, but you might give him a chance anyway. Love is not about criteria and grades, it’s about a bond that can’t always be explained rationally.

  30. Stargate Girl

    With you Olive. A whopping partner count of 2 does not a past make. Getting into mid teens to upper, then you’ve got a past.
    I don’t think I had a list of what I wanted, but I definitely knew what I didn’t want. I didn’t want a guy with long hair, I didn’t want a lot of facial hair. I didn’t want someone who scared me with their physical presence(tingles or not!) and I didn’t want a slacker.
    Found my husband(OTC) at college. He was a musician/composer/arranger as well as working towards a 2nd degree in comp sci. He literally had me at hello.
    Like Bb said. check out the computer labs, that’s where the good ones are :D

  31. SG,
    No worries, I’ve already found my computer lab guy. Actually he’s a math major, but close enough. ;-)

  32. To be honest, I didn’t spend much time in the lab. Too busy running keg parties!

  33. Michel

    OffTheCuff,

    Charm discusses the issue of being a late bloomer to life in general. She then asserts that she is not a slut like some other women. Only her second argument was gender specific.

    Olive,

    You felt compelled to defend Charm because you are a woman yourself and it is a female tendency to side with another woman on the internet despite not knowing anything about her. Furthermore, my attacking of Charm’s notch count felt like a personal jab at your own past by female association. You’re the one that gave a blowjob to a frat boy, yes? Come on, you know you’re above this rationalization. You started your blog for this very reason.

    And here is the crux of my argument. Your defense of Charm about having slept with two guys as not a big deal comes from a female perspective. What I present is a male perspective, specifically that of a male late bloomer who learns game and wants something long term—a marriage.

    Two partners may not sound enough to constitute a sexual past, but from a male point of view, it is a sexual past. The male late bloomer is investing everything he’s gained and will continue to gain in his life with a woman. He cannot risk any mistake in this marital climate. That includes the increase in divorce rate with the increase in the number of past sexual partners.

    This is what I was getting at, OffTheCuff. Charm’s effort to neutralize her past, however admirable it may be, is still against the need of her male counterpart. Either she finds a man who has a similar sexual history and can look past hers or she keeps the number to herself from the late bloomer.

  34. I am with OTC and think this criticism of Charm’s partner count is a little overwrought. In the environs she is in, a big American college, she’s an outlier, which isn’t bad because she’s looking for a guy who is a bit of an outlier himself.

    Where I think Charm might run into trouble is that she’s fishing for a niche product – the guy who is quiet with a strong inner frame. That’s just an unusual combination at the college age; introverted types tend to be marginalized for their lack of overt social dominance until they reach an age where their labor or intellectual skills can get them social value. She’ll have to go a bit older…in my estimation, the STEM guys don’t grow the backbone she’s looking for until they are out of college for a few years. I certainly didn’t.

  35. Some elaboration on this post:

    The idea is to sketch out the utility function of female mating – the way in which the female subconscious mind weighs various factors to decide who she wants to have sex with and bond to for long-term purposes.

    It’s been demonstrated that the function varies among women – some women wants lots of a certain trait, others are satisfied with a mixture of all traits above certain thresholds.

    Jack Amok,

    “So is, for that matter, what is and isn’t “socially acceptable.” For the most part, groups of women will find the fields of endeavor with the hottest, most desirable men to the the most socially acceptable.”

    That is interesting, but also the reverse of what I’m talking about. Women certainly will become interested in the activities of a hot man. But they also find mastery of certain things attractive a priori, like I’ve found women from farm communities find a guy who can hunt attractive.

    ATWYSBlog/Moxie,

    “Here’s the funny thing. I think a woman will disregard all of these criteria as long as the man is easy to dominate or manage. So many women think they’re looking for a relationship but are, in actuality, looking for someone who will pay them consistent attention.”

    Maybe. I have seen women who are desperate for a relationship date the poodles you are talking about, but women without that deep need I have seen respond negatively to a guy she can boss around.

    wavevector,

    “I’ve got a 3-item list for what women want:

    1) A man they look up to.
    2) To feel desired by that man.
    3) To feel safe.”

    That is a brilliant and pithy list. We talk about how expressing desire for a woman can be beta, but if a woman finds a guy attractive, she WANTS to know he wants her, and it bruises her ego if he doesn’t express that to her.

    Anonymous,

    You are correct but you are missing the point. The point is to examine on where the tingles come from.

  36. “Now what do MOST women want?…Way more than they have to offer”

    Ain’t that the truth. It’s interesting how the game community is one of the only niches of dating advice, male or female, that tells its adherents that to get a better quality mate, it’s not just about your tactical actions, you have to BE a better quality mate (in other words, it acknowledges ). Sure there’s PUA with routines and such, but the best game advice is the stuff that helps you _become_ a higher value man; and a lot of the tactical advice is helping you express that value rather than just fake it.

    “A man who is surrounded by tons of hot women, but doesn’t acknowledge them because she is sitting there, waiting for him to come a talk to her.”

    Many a truth is spoken in jest. A few women in the vicinity of the manosphere have said almost exactly this, they want a guy all the girls want to only have eyes for her. It’s just a silly fantasy expectation, guys like that (really hot guys with tons of social proof, and oneitis) are very rare.

  37. Pingback: i don’t get it | BbSezMore

  38. Charm

    Well, the comments here have gotten out of hand, if I do say so myself.

    Allow me to clear some things up:

    First off, having slept with 2 people in a 5 year span is not, nor will it ever be considered “alot” of men. Sorry guys. Try again.

    Now, both of those were in a LTR. One was a guy I slept with the summer before I went to college. I’d known him for 8 months, dated for 3 before I had sex with him. He tried to use me to bum money off of, and tried to put me down to build himself up, so I cut his ass loose. Second one was a guy I worked with for a 1 year, only knew him as an acquaintance, but through mutual friends got to know him better and really liked him. By the time we dated and ultimately had sex I’d known him almost 2 years. Last over a year, but didn’t work out because he had low self esteem, which led to him being very supplicating and ultimately a huge turn off. Though, I will admit he has a good heart, but his weak sense of self did nothing for me.

    So now, here I am. Those two relationships combined with the shitty relationships I’ve had with member of my own family have led to my current list for a mate. No, I don’t need to make the same mistakes over and over again until I’m 29 and I’ve “learned my lesson”. I think I’ve done a pretty good job at accessing what I want and do not want in a mate–so far.

    @Michael

    Don’t try and shame me. I don’t pity guys who are being ignored and going through a drought currently. Why? Because my pity would do nothing for them. I’m simply acknowledging that the shit sucks, it hurts, but it doesn’t kill you. Any man who carried that bitterness can continue to carry it by his damn self. There are options for guys who were hopeless with women from the time of puberty through college. I believe its called game, and they have every opportunity to learn it an improve themselves. Now once these guys do get it figured out, they face not having the same experience that other guys their age have. I only stating that I will not be in the business of looking down on them for being behind their peers.

    Re hiding my partner count

    I highly doubt I’ll ever make it to 4. Regardless, I’m not going to hide it from anyone. Why would I? I’m not embarrassed of anything. And Im not hiding or excluding any other sexual acts in that number which includes kissing. I’ve only ever kissed those 2 people as well. I’d tell any guy who asked about it. I’m not religious so I never pledged to be a virgin or anything. I wouldn’t be dating any devout Christians, Catholics, Muslim etc anyway, so choosing this path is my own.

    Re Team Vagina

    Thanks, but I don’t need anyone to go to bat for me. My self esteem will lowered based off of what a few people on an internet blog say about me.

    Re being a late bloomer

    A lot of this is also based off of what other people my age a currently doing. Maybe I should have stated that before. Because I wasn’t having sex/engaging in sexual activities from age 15-now like most of my female peers, I guess I’d also be considered a “late bloomer”. When I was a teenager, most of the girls in my highschool had already had sex. I didn’t care to have sex until I was ready which was at 18. By 18 I knew quite a few people with babies, sometime multiple children. Now when you add in the fact that I’ve been responsible for my own well being since my mid teens, I’ve literally had no time to focus on being/becoming a woman. I have no one to look to as an example, no one to look to for advice. So, I’ve basically had to figure it out on my own. Not to say I’m uncomfortable in my sexuality, but I’m allowing it to grow on its own and not allowing others behaviors to influence mine. The only reason I had time to meet someone in college is because I worked with him.

    I’ve seemed to give off the impression that I’m unattractive in some way? I’m not. But currently girls that are visible and thus desired and the ones that wear revealing clothing and high heels that also give bj in bathrooms and pass out on the street. I’m not doing that to get male attention. I’ve had friends who envied the “hook up culture” and wished they had the guts to join, but I’m okay with being ignored. My self worth doesn’t lie in the hands of a bunch of immature college students.

    Why is this mentality so unbelievable? I’ll actually answer my own question. I think it’s being called bullshit, because at my age, one would assume that if I wasn’t following the other girls behavior, and partying and having loads of sex, that the alternative (being an outlier) should be crushing myself worth, and if its not then I must be an ogre? Hm, I can understand how you’re getting this idea. The reason it doesn’t bother me is because 1.) I work 30 hours a week to pay for school, and wouldn’t have time to go out anyway 2.) I’ve been through far worse things in my 22 years on the planet so this is actually the easiest thing I’ve done to be quite honest. 3.) I spend so much time meeting my basic living needs that partying/meeting “hot” guys is the last fucking thing on my list of things to do.

    Being able to have the freedom party weekly and have your expenses taken care or supplemented by your parents is a luxury. A luxury I do not possess.

    @Badger

    Yes, I do realize that these guys won’t “get there” until a bit later on. I was merely stating that I will wait for them. From what I’ve observed the overall maturity level of the “cool” college kids is really low. Lower than mine anyway. The STEM guys that I’ve met so far have seemed to be completely devoid of knowledge of the opposite sex (since they were probably never taught) and they tend to run in packs. But I have faith that they will get there, like you did. It also seems they are more focused on school (which I respect) and hanging out with friends of mutual interests rather than chasing tail (or attempting to). So no, I don’t plan on dating any of them NOW. I graduate in 4 months. I was simply observing their potential as men.

    Now, I didn’t mean to imply that my list was set in stone. No, I’m not stupid enough to do that. Just like I’m not stupid enough to only date guys that are taller than me when I’m around 5’11” tall. I know it would get me no where. I just wanted to answer the question to the best of my ability. I like to always leave room for my perspective to be changed. I’m sure the next few years will sculpt it more, but just based on the life experiences I will gain.

    I know I’ll meet the guy with the strong(er) inner game (I want to say character, but game will work) a bit later on. I actually suspect I’ll end up marrying someone several years older than me. I’m not afraid of the so-called “drought” that comes along with the wait. The affection of a quality man can’t be replaced by any man. I think a lot of people are deathly afraid of the drought, but I see it as another obstacle to be overcome.In the mean time I will not be hooking up with other men (I can’t do it, and I don’t need to try to figure that much out). I’ll actually be focusing on paying off my student loans so I don’t bring them into a relationship. Sorry guys, I’m gonna take the high road and focus on becoming the person I *gasp* want to attract instead.

    Ultimately though, I plan on being one of those women that stole one the “good” men that those older gals have a hard time finding when they retire from the carousel at the age of 32. :)

  39. Abides

    Let me insist: there is a big different between what girls say they want, and what girls want to be fucked by.

    Most comments here by girls are about the first question, and most comments by men are about the second question. Out of clear experience.

  40. Charm

    Abides,

    I agree. You’re right. But one mistake you’re making is by grouping all women together. Even if 90% of women wanted something, you can’t just completely ignore the others simply because the majority makes the rule. I don’t fit into the mold of what most girls are/do. I have yet to find a female that I can relate to. Until recently you couldn’t tell me that hypergamy among women existed except for online until a couple of the girls I work with mentioned staying with man and/or dating a man so that he can “take care of [her]“. They were so nonchalant about it. It blew my mind. Neither had much to offer but their looks and one was fat and unattractive.

    On to my point:

    I think women want to be fucked by confident men. A man that is comfortable in his sexuality and doesn’t apologize for being attracted to the opposite sex. I think a lot of beta’s spend too much time supplicating, which is a fucking huge turn off. But for me, so is the arrogance of alpha men. Well modern alpha men. I’d like to strike a balance. Which is why I like game because it (some of it) advocates being both beta and alpha. I also think it comes down to compartmentalizing. Its like how the woman who is a boss at work can’t turn it off when at home with her man. A man who is beta at work or in the outside world, needs to learn to turn up the alpha when dealing with women.

    Now since women literally have to choose between one or the other in most cases they pick Alpha. I cannot do that. I understand the appeal (I’m talking positive traits), but without the comfort traits or beta traits, sexual attraction will never be sparked for me. I think other women don’t processes it like that so they pumped and dumped.

    I also think its because alpha men create sexual tension. I notice that my sex drive responded to my ex bf’s sex drive, but he didn’t maintain it. If he sits around waiting for me to go into overdrive its gonna be awhile, but if he kicks his up a notch mine will naturally follow.

    I think of alpha like a muscle that needs to be maintained and flexed at the right time. Being beta and comforting a woman is great, but she doesn’t want to be pounded by one. Alpha assholes can typically create the sexual energy needed to drop panties. I think all men have the shit within them (to a degree), but its been bred out from a very early age.

    Plus girls can now indiscriminately fuck natural alphas so they can’t possibly lower themselves to the level of their natural beta mates.

  41. Michel

    Badger,

    I consider it unfortunate when a few partners is considered acceptable and even praiseworthy. It’s a matter of generational difference. Still, you wouldn’t want anything long term with these commentators, would you?

  42. deti

    I’ll chime in and hope for the best.

    It’s a bit much in this SMP to criticize a partner count of 2 for a 22 year old woman. Yes, 60 years ago that would be too many. But that was then, and this is now, and we have to live with the facts we have now and in the society we have now.

    Charm and women like her simply need to know the difference between what they say they want (beta/comfort traits), and the qualities of a man they want to have sex with (alpha/attraction traits). A lot of women say they want both. It’s actually more accurate to say that both sets of qualities are what make a LTR or marriage work. But it’s the alpha traits, the confidence/dominance traits, that tingle women.

    I still believe women say the beta traits are “attractive” because (1) that’s what society conditions men and women to say (and that conditioning is so shot through society and culture that most people can’t even see it themselves); (2) women don’t want to admit they are attracted to alpha assholes because of the strong anti-slut defense/reflex; and (3) most women don’t really understand what attracts them to a particular man.

    Alpha = attractive. Beta = desirable. But desirable does not necessarily equal attractive, and many times is not attractive in the alpha sense we regularly discuss here.

  43. deti

    MIchel: Speaking just for myself: I would not call a partner count of 2 for a 22 year old woman praiseworthy or acceptable, necessarily. A lot of it depends on where they came from. IF they’re both LTRs, that’s a bit different from both being ONSs. I’m going to worry a bit, though, if she wants to get married and she continues having LTRs of 6 months or more with sex, and racks up a double digit partner count. Because that would then make me wonder about her judgment.

    Two doesn’t necessarily make me question her judgment. Ten would. Twenty definitely would.

  44. Stargate Girl

    If a partner count of 2 is considered unacceptable, the men who find it so are going to end up very lonely, bitter, and alone. Times change, we either adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs.

  45. What I present is a male perspective, specifically that of a male late bloomer who learns game and wants something long term—a marriage.

    I am a late bloomer (first GF at 20) and have been married a long time, and have enough game to make SGG deliriosuly happen and other things i cant even admit to here. I am that perspective. Clearly, you are not understanding even the very basics of Game…

  46. Michel

    Deti,

    I don’t wish what you went through on any man. If Gen. Y and Millennial guys aim for marriage as the end goal, they’d better eliminate as much threat to their chance as possible.

    OffTheCuff,

    I don’t consider that late. It may seem late compared to guys who got laid in their teens, but I don’t consider that late. I’d put you slightly off of the high school sweetheart demographic and near the college sweetheart demographic. To me, late is past mid 20s, something much more common now with the young ones out of college.

  47. Charm

    @deti

    I know what you mean man. The majority sets the rule, and your observations are absolutely correct. I think it takes a lot of women a long time to really access what they want in a mate and by the time they actually get there its waaaay too late and no one wants to buy the cow. I don’t think its wrong to say that you like alpha traits in a man, as long as he isn’t asshole. Its like how a man has the right to say he prefers a slim(mer) woman as opposed to a fat(ter) one.

    Supplicating beta behavior is honestly equivalent to a woman not desiring a man sexually. Its a man having to choose between an unattractive woman who wants to fuck him or attractive one that is repulsed by the sight of him. Women get the p and d alpha or the pussy drying supplicating beta. And beta doesn’t=bad in my book.It equals comforting–when I need it. Any woman that doesn’t want to be comforted deserves whatever she gets. A woman who wants a man to neglect her and only pay attention to her sexually is probably a woman most men wouldn’t want to wife up anyway.

    @Michel

    Why are you so obsessed with this number thing? You don’t think that a virgin will marry you, grow bored, be influenced by her friends, and decide to leave you? People tend to adopt the ideals on the place in which they live (though, Im assuming you’re in a western country.). You can’t even hide her in an Christian or “traditional” environment because these women engage in this bad behavior just as much as secular,, no? Like most of you guys have said over and over again: women have rationalization hamsters, and they tend to follow the herd. Currently “the herd” is all grrrrrlll power, not goooood wife, so good luck. Unless you plan on insulating this virgin girl from all negativity, she had better have character of steel and be able to fend off any negative influences.

  48. deti

    Michel:

    Fully agree about eliminating as much risk as possible. There is always risk in marriage. Two is not slutty. 12 is definitely getting there. 22 is definitely slut territory.

    Charm:

    Michel has a point. Couple of things:
    1. There’s at least one study showing a direct relationship between a woman’s partner count and divorce. The study is particular to women. The same results don’t hold for men, or at least it hasn’t been studied. In other words, the more men a woman slept with before getting married, the higher her chances of divorce. The thought is that a woman with a high body count has a sharply reduced ability to pair bond.

    (This is why I think you’re wrong about a virgin marrying, getting bored and leaving her husband. I suppose this could happen, but it’s less likely than the slut who can’t or won’t pair bond. A virgin who marries is easily able to pair bond with her husband because she has no other sexual frame of reference.)

    2. Divorce is much, much financially riskier for men than for women. Women make out well in divorces. A divorced woman can commandeer more than half of her husband’s salary, depending on how many children they have. .

    Michel’s reference to me has to do with my discovery about my wife, 15 years in, of her partner count. Charm, at the very least, if you’re asked about your partner count, don’t lie about it. The truth always comes out. Always.

    Keep your weight down, your hair long and your makeup on.

  49. “You felt compelled to defend Charm because you are a woman yourself and it is a female tendency to side with another woman on the internet despite not knowing anything about her.”

    Nah, I defend who I feel like defending. Boys and girls.

    “Furthermore, my attacking of Charm’s notch count felt like a personal jab at your own past by female association. You’re the one that gave a blowjob to a frat boy, yes? Come on, you know you’re above this rationalization. You started your blog for this very reason.”

    Oh man I have lurkers! In any case, nah, not really. I was more thinking about who’s actually a slut, and who probably racked up a notch count of two by being in serious relationships. Frat boy was not on my mind. Nor was my whopping partner count of 1. :-P To be honest, I was thinking of my friend who banged Tucker Max. If you want to slut-shame, shame the sluts.

  50. Michel

    Deti,

    Keep it up. Always a delight to read your comments.

    Olive,

    Thank Riv for that detail. Take a look at what you wrote and how you wrote it. Ferd’s book couldn’t come out soon enough.

  51. ASF

    If a man is not looking to marry, then partner count is not that important (within reason). Guys like Charm claims to want exist, but they are hard to find, because they can blend in with other guys in any venue. You would only discover them by chance encounters and through extended conversation with them (i.e. not necessarily where you met them, because if they are clued in, and not knowing if you are a typical girl or not, they will not reveal their nerdier/intellectual side to you because that is an attraction killer). Of course blogs such as this also attract them, but a blog is not really a suitable medium unless you’re in the same city as the blogger.

  52. Michel,
    I still haven’t forgiven Riv for that. He caught me unawares, and I’ve learned my lesson.

  53. Charm

    @deti

    I know the facts and figures regarding partner count and odds of divorce. It makes sense, so sure the odds of you getting a divorce with a virgin are much lower, but nothing is without risk. I think its up to a man to decide whether or not the woman he is marrying is worth the risk he is taking. Once you’re in you’re in. Now I don’t advocate a woman who has been around at all, but 2 people shouldn’t be a deal breaker. I think ideally men and women should seek out partners that want marriage, not ones that are burned out and looking to “settle” down. If you’re a male virgin, I can see wanting a female virgin. But if you’ve banged a dozen women, you’d have little room to demand a womans number be lower. I know men can compartmentalize, but I simply don’t respect a hypocrite. As a woman, a man being in the double digits is a turn off. Now if they were all in LTR’s (highly unlikely) I could maybe understand, but if more than a couple were ONS or fwb or casual, he can keep it movin’. I know a lot of women want me who have been around, but just thought of casual sex turns me off. I was reading one of the old posts on HUS and Ted (I believe) mentioned how he’d never been with a woman he didn’t like/respect/plan to date long-term. He didn’t allow himself to be a slave to his desires, which I admired.

    @ASF

    I will search high and low, to find what I’m looking for. I know it will be hard. It takes a lot to discourage me. And that discouragement lasts for a few minutes and then I right back at it.

  54. I know the facts and figures regarding partner count and odds of divorce. It makes sense, so sure the odds of you getting a divorce with a virgin are much lower, but nothing is without risk

    Speaking as an engaged Christian waiting until marriage: a virgin wife isn’t a safe bet, because there’s no guarantee she’ll be a kind, decent loving wife. Modern Christianity is a breeding ground for Princess-entitlement complexes “Good Christian virgins deserve to marry providers…” When I first fell in love with my fiance, I felt like my Christian upbringing put me at a disadvantage, because everything I had been taught about relationships [you're a virgin, so men should pedestalize you!] was harmful. I needed the strongest dose of the red-pill, that’s for sure! Also, the odds of divorce aren’t always relevant, because many terrible marriages stay intact, purely out of religious obligation. In my old church [Catholic], I encountered many dysfunctional, miserable married couples who only stayed together because they considered divorce a sin [by dysfunction, I mean substance abuse, repeated infidelity, and I kid you not - cuckolding].

    If you’re a male virgin, I can see wanting a female virgin. But if you’ve banged a dozen women, you’d have little room to demand a womans number be lower

    Well, virgin bachelors who desire a virgin wife tend to be more common in Christian circles, so I doubt this will be an issue on your college campus; unless you go to BYU or ORU.

    I know men can compartmentalize, but I simply don’t respect a hypocrite

    When it comes to partner count, I find women are more likely to be hypocritical. In Christian circles [Note to self: make more non-Christian friends. I need to venture outside of "Christian circles"] there’s “Born Again” virgins, as well as the perpetually amusing “married middle aged former-carousel riders who conveniently found Jesus” – they actually condemn young women for participating in the same salacious indiscretions they themselves did, like, twenty years ago.

    This is why I think you’re wrong about a virgin marrying, getting bored and leaving her husband. I suppose this could happen, but it’s less likely than the slut who can’t or won’t pair bond. A virgin who marries is easily able to pair bond with her husband because she has no other sexual frame of reference

    I’m not sure if this is related to pair bonding, but I get confused when [medium to high partner count] women talk about “settling down” with their husbands. They never talk about falling head-over-heels in love and getting married; they always make it seem like their marriages were a calculated business decision. When it comes to my relationship with my fiance, I’m in love with a capital L. I write love songs, I send him overtly-sweet text messages, he consumes my thoughts and dreams. I try not to obsess, but I just love him so much! *gushes* Anyway, I cannot fathom why so many women would view their marriage as being merely a business decision. Perhaps the emotions I’m experiencing [absolute bliss], they never felt for their husband?

  55. deti

    Charm:

    I understand your point about partner counts for men and women. Most women I’ve found don’t really share your view. It’s my experience that most women don’t really care what a man’s partner count is, unless he’s a complete cad who is in or approaching triple digits. I suspect the reason for this is preselection: No woman wants a man that no other woman wants. If he’s had sex before, that means some other woman found him worthy; and thus his current woman can rest assured she’s not getting uberbeta with a low SMV. Her hypergamous nature can’t abide the thought that she’s getting a low- or no-value SMV man.

    Butterfly:

    Heh. I was wondering when someone would bring up the “born again virgin”/”reformed slut” meme that’s making its way around the evangelical Protestant churchian circles. In my view there are “reformed sluts” and then there are true reformed sluts. In general, the “reformed sluts” talk the talk but don’t walk the walk, so to speak. The true reformed sluts can actually repair their lives somewhat but most have completely ruined their SMVs and MMVs. The true purpose of the “reformed slut” movement in churches right now is to marry these women off to whatever chumps and herbs will wife them up. Most evangoProtestant churches are overwhelmingly female. Pastors and members pass off “reformed sluts” as nice church girls, and shame male churchgoers into dating and marrying them. Most male attendees of churches like this are devout and want a Christian wife, and are being expressly told that if they want to marry, they MUST marry from the church or risk being unequally yoked. What these men are NOT being told is that these “reformed sluts” have been sex toys for hot guys through their 20s, have petri dish pelvises, and couldn’t pair bond with a teddy bear.

  56. Gorbachev

    This list is pretty good.

    Note that the Dark Triad play no huge role here. Sexual attraction is distinct from this relationship-wanting.

  57. Michel: Average male age for losing the V is 16.9 – see http://www.iub.edu/~kinsey/resources/FAQ.html#Age . Anything past that I consider “late”. Hitting 22 or so puts you in the outlier territory.

  58. NMH

    As for pair bonding and partner counts: I think in general that is true but I have some anecdotal information that it may not always be true. My current gf, I suspect, is somewhere in the 10-15 range, but she seems to be able to dump me despite me giving her great reasons to do so. Im certainly no alpha but my guess is that the reasons that she doesnt dump me that her hypergamy is well satisfied with me (she has a low status job).

    But I do think that the more partners that a woman has, the harder it is for a woman to pair bond, but it is possible with a man that has much higher status than she does.

    It really is in a mans interest to marry a young virgin.

  59. Stargate Girl

    “It really is in a mans interest to marry a young virgin.”

    Good luck with that! :D I rather think marrying a virgin is more the exception than rule now a days. What I think is more important is people actually sticking to their vows. Too many people seem to be of the “Oh well, if we tire of each other, we’ll just divorce”. For better or worse doesn’t seem to mean much anymore :( There are certainly deal breakers : i.e. chronic infidelity, abuse-physical/emotional/sexual, but in general, I took that vow to mean no matter what, you find a way to slog on through.

  60. Michel

    OffTheCuff,

    You’re citing Kinsey? That made me chuckle. I simply gave you my opinion on the current crop of young men. No need to bring shame into this by implying that I lost my virginity later than you. You’re an alpha with a voracious past and now a devoutly married man. I got the message.

  61. Stargate Girl

    OTC had a voracious past? Hmmm…. Should I know about this? ;)

  62. Michel: Shaming, what? Hitting 22 puts *one* in the outlier territory, not you personally. That’s statistical, not shaming – I didn’t say people who get there are bad people. If there’s a real trend where the average mail age is getting *higher*, I’d be interesting in see it.

    As for voracious past — you do know that I married my that first and only girlfriend, by 25?

    However, it is true I’m an alpha with a voracious present.

  63. Stargate Girl

    Oh! So I’m that voracious past. EXCELLENT! :D

  64. *male age; interested. Yugh.

  65. Gorbachev,

    Welcome, thanks for writing!

    “Note that the Dark Triad play no huge role here. Sexual attraction is distinct from this relationship-wanting.”

    True – I hadn’t noticed at the time but this list was written without dark triad in mind. DT maps onto these points for a lot of women (for a pointedly smaller number of women those traits are actively unattractive.)

    BF,

    That’s great to hear you are still feeling it. I think as you get older you’ll realize via older friends that a lot of women do get to a point where it all of a sudden becomes really important for them to be married, and they snap up the first guy who can be cast as a husband no matter how she feels about him (so long as he’s not repulsive and looks good in a couples photo). I’m hearing a good number of stories from friends about female acquaintances who just married the guy they happened to be dating when they got the itch, the music stopped and they sat down on his lap.

    “In Christian circles [Note to self: make more non-Christian friends. I need to venture outside of "Christian circles"] there’s “Born Again” virgins, as well as the perpetually amusing “married middle aged former-carousel riders who conveniently found Jesus” – they actually condemn young women for participating in the same salacious indiscretions they themselves did, like, twenty years ago.”

    See ‘em myself. It’s funny, sad and scary at the same time…people are really good at talking themselves into believing things, especially when their own self-image is on the line.

    NMH,

    “But I do think that the more partners that a woman has, the harder it is for a woman to pair bond, but it is possible with a man that has much higher status than she does.”

    There’s a lot of chicken and egg here – to eschew caution enough to sleep with lots of guys, you have to have some unconventional psychology going on there to begin with. Maybe having poor pair-bonding hardware is the trait, and being promiscuous is an expression of that trait – in other words some women just bond poorly no matter how few partners they’ve had.

    Michel,

    I honestly don’t understand what your point is anymore.

  66. lakes,

    “Where DO older STEM guys hang out after work?”

    For the real geeks: board games, cosplay, LAN gaming parties, art-film houses, card sharking, geeky concerts (like Metric or Big Country or Rush).

    For less flamboyant STEM guys: quiet pursuits, stopping for a beer (one beer) after work then going home to read or hang on the Internet.

  67. Lakes

    *Sighs.* No wonder I don’t meet less flamboyant STEM guys. I’m not a STEM person myself, don’t stop for even one beer, and quite enjoy quiet pursuits. It would be nice to share them, though.

  68. Lakes,

    Serious advice: hop on meetup.com and join all the geeky groups – board gamers, intelligent singles (a bit presumptuous), history groups, hikers. Search for smart, nerd, and geek. Try some paleo diet groups too if you are down, those people tend to be intelligently-inclined and disciplined to pull off that sort of lifestyle ;)

  69. Lakes

    Thanks, Badger. I really appreciate your advice, and will go check out the website. I live in a relatively small town so will have to see if there are groups around here.

  70. Candide

    Take up swing dancing if it’s in your area. It’s full of STEM nerds.

  71. Lakes

    I’ll check that out. It sounds fun. Thanks for the suggestion, Candide.

  72. Women often change what they want, these varies from time to time depending on the situation.

  73. Pingback: Treating Her Like A Guy | The Badger Hut

  74. Pingback: “Women Don’t Need A Provider”: A Bogus Meme | The Badger Hut

  75. Pingback: Dating Hits- The Game How To Pick Up Women

  76. Pingback: Dating Hits- The Game How To Pick Up Women

  77. Tom H

    Take up ballroom dancing if you’re shy about trying kino. You get lots of experience touching members of the opposite sex with ballroom dancing. Holding hands, hands on her back/your arm, stepping on feet (lol), holding ladies close in the cuddle/basket position, etc. When you’re holding hands and do a move well in a dance lesson, it’s easy to get excited about it and squeeze your partner’s hand. Just don’t do anything sleazy in ballroom or nobody will dance with you. Being a good or even just halfway decent ballroom dancer will up your SMV with a lot of people.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s