“Slut Shaming” and Fat Shaming in Monogamous and Free-Sex Societies

A recent comment from one WarmWoman (#432) at Susan’s place got me thinking.

+1. Some of the posters here say that men don’t slut shame, but I think young Indian men can sense how conscious Indian women are about being labeled sluts. They know that if they want to make an Indian woman feel bad, they can use the slut-shaming card. Just like an American man can tell a girl that she’s fat. He knows it’s an easy weapon to hurt her.

First, as to whether men like sluts, it’s a questions of ladders – men aren’t going to say no to slutty women for Ladder 2, but they’ll almost never put her on Ladder 1.

I can’t speak to the marketplace incentives in Indian culture. But I will speak in general terms of old society vs new society in America.

It stands to reason that a “hard monogamy” system, one in which basically everybody is expected to partner up for life and long-term mate value is of primary importance, is going to view sluttitude as a major negative. In such a society, being slutty does two things – it hurts a woman’s chance at snagging commitment from a high-value man (high-value relative to her SMV and station in life), and it lowers the price of sex on the market, threatening the sexual carte and thus negatively affecting other women. So “slut shaming” serves as a simultaneous protection of the interest of the woman in question and women at large. (I really hate that term, by the way, if only because it’s so laced with sex-poz feminist connotations of patriarchal oppression). In any case, the shaming is the lesser of two discomforts, as it attempts to prevent the larger problem of a loose woman not attracting any man that she feels is qualified to be her husband.

Let’s consider another arrangement, a “free-sex” society in which commitment bonds are weak, people are free and encouraged to have multiple partners of short- or long-term duration as they see fit. This is something like today’s urban America with its hookups and young adult flings, and breaking of “commitment” via no-fault divorce. In such a society, sexual attractiveness is of primary import – the culture exalts sexual satisfaction, even in long-term relationships, so sexual chemistry, compatibility and pleasure are the first hurdles to clear before most people even begin thinking about serious long-term commitment. In such a society, there will be fat shaming aimed at women, and along with it there will beta shaming of unattractive men. And as in the hard-monogamy society, the “shaming” serves as the lesser of two evils; unattractive people will be told their behavior is hurting them in the marketplace. Those who make no effort to move up the ladder are in fact already shamed by being ignored and unfulfilled in the sexual marketplace.

The contrasting parallel actually line up really well.

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22 responses to ““Slut Shaming” and Fat Shaming in Monogamous and Free-Sex Societies

  1. Good post Badge. One point i’d like to add tho, i had this same convo with someone else on HUS. It devolved into the following remark.

    Fat women know why they’re not attractive. Women are told from early on what men see as beautiful. (slim, slender, healthy weight). And they have a plethora of options available to them to set a course correction. (caloric intake, exercise, doctors, prescriptions, even surgery). Fat women may have been sold a bill of goods about beauty being on the inside, yada yada, but they’ve known from day one that skinny gets you more play.

    Contrast that to beta men. Beta men did NOT know why they were unattractive. They were taught, and programmed to be ‘nice’, subservient, divesting. They were fed a lifetime of lies that are hard to break even after the ruse is exposed and the jig is up. There is no shortage of the NAWALT crowd telling burnt men to CONTINUE on the same path that led them off a cliff. Men do not have the plethora of options or voices telling them WHY they are not successful, in fact there is a concerted effort to continue to box them into betatude.. to ‘be themselves’ all the while those who proclaim ‘id never fall for a manwhore’ continue to flirt and bat eyelashes with said manwhore.

    Women are not told ‘you don’t have to lose weight dear, in fact eat some more fries and shakes, get BIGGER and you’ll land the right guy!’

    This in effect is the message burnt beta men get over and over from the protectors of the ‘herd’… just CONTINUE being NICE, you’ll find the one.

    Beta men are shamed in PRIVATE amongst women, and the rare idiot that states it publicly gives as great advice as that cow-whore Amanda Marcotte’s frothing drivel ‘Be more attractive’. Great advice. Feminism taught men how to embrace their feminine side and now they recoil in terror at the monster they created and want men to mystically learn how to be more attractive after 40 years of a social experiment gone psychotically awry.

    Unless a guy uses the awesome power of the internet to begin his quest to understand why he feels so strange because the wool has been pulled from his eyes, and his esophagus hurts from swallowing that massive red pill and discovers evo-psych and game, he will be fed continuing lies on why he is not succeeding in the SMP.

  2. Thanks Badger for an insightful read,

    @MuffManMike,
    That beta men were shamed in public is something that many people would not be aware of. You are right, at least a fat girl knows she is unattractive, although I must say, there are some who are told they are ‘fine as they are’, but it is now becoming clear to these women that whoever is saying this to them doesn’t actually like them…they are being sabotaged…

    To take the red pill is hard indeed, but so worth it.

  3. Can I say this is White-centric like a mother? Not that there isn’t a point where there is a such thing as too much weight, but the levels are set higher in different cultures in the US and especially in developing nations. It’s not false, but YMMV. Heck, there are Black women literally DYING for a bigger butt.

    Still the larger point stands. Just don’t get too fixated on weight. So long as the women look young, healthy, symmetrical and have the proper waist to hip ratio, beauty standards from there can vary WILDLY.

  4. Fat women may have been sold a bill of goods about beauty being on the inside, yada yada, but they’ve known from day one that skinny gets you more play.

    Is this true? Because I can’t tell you the number of women (married and single alike) who think I’m a little nuts for being so cautious about my weight. And most of them have a man, too.

  5. just visiting

    I disagree with fat shaming being the measure in a free sex society. If that were the case, the Victorians wouldn’t have been so fond of corsets. The measure would be virgin shaming. At the very least, considered unfit for dating unless you’re willing to come across sexually within a certain amount of dates. If sexual attractiveness is of prime importance, then it’s kind of hard to take the sexual out of the equation.

  6. Hm. This fat shaming thing is interesting, partly because I JUST saw one of my facebook friends post some picture shaming the fashion industry for… shaming fat girls. It’s out there, the “just be happy with yourself” message, and I do think chubbier girls read into it a little too much, then blame the dudes who aren’t attracted to them for making them feel insecure. It’s a really weird problem, likely a symptom of this culture’s emphasis on instant gratification (have sex whenever! eat foods that are bad for you!).

    I think you’re onto something, Badger. In an assortative mating culture, all kinds of people get married, yes, even the fat people. But in a “free sex” culture, when monogamy is not required and hypergamy is essentially unrestrained, the fat people will definitely lose out. And if obesity rates are skyrocketing (and believe me, they are), more and more people are losing out. Instant gratification is bad news across the board, IMO.

  7. SayWhaat

    Good thing I’m not fat…?

  8. MuffMan Mike,

    I assume your new handle is related to that protracted discussion we had at HUS about “dining out”? :-o

  9. Olive,

    “shaming the fashion industry for… shaming fat girls”

    The fashion industry shames fat girls, but it also shames thin girls and tells them to be even more thin. It’s a perverted industry. It’s like the female version of the NFL, where a guy running the 40-yard dash in three hundredths of a second fewer than the other guy can translate into higher draft position, better trade value and hundreds of thousands of dollars over a career.

    “It’s a really weird problem, likely a symptom of this culture’s emphasis on instant gratification (have sex whenever! eat foods that are bad for you!).”

    This brings up a really interesting point – a free-sex society is probably also going to be one that suborns bad eating habits, all as part of a “do what you feel” lifestyle. Whatever your gender, it’s obviously hard to be sexy if you can’t control what goes into your mouth (ah…see what I did there?)

    It is curious to ponder that some old-time agricultural societies, which were obsessed with fertility in both a harvest and birth sense and operated a matriarchal system that held orgies as fertility rituals, grew the dreaded grains that contribute to so much modern obesity. I believe I learned that ancient East Indian society was in fact this way, and its fusion with the rites of militant invaders created the highly pluralistic Hindu religion. I’m certainly open to somebody filling in the details here.

  10. “Can I say this is White-centric like a mother?”

    Can’t say I’ve ever heard that particular criticism before.

    Elspeth,

    “Is this true? Because I can’t tell you the number of women (married and single alike) who think I’m a little nuts for being so cautious about my weight. And most of them have a man, too.”

    By your description, those women are nuts. Making an effort to watch your weight is itself a huge sign to your man that you care about yourself and about keeping him interested in you.

  11. Mike,

    Your point is spot-on, though. Guys aren’t told that being beta is an unattractive thing. I’m not so willing to chalk this up to Machiavellian lies by the sex cartel, though. I think it’s more that female attraction triggers are just not well understood by people in general, and they also change over time many times, as the predominant marker of male value changes with environment (girl likes hunky jock in high school, corduroyed beatnik in college, and steady-saving beta for marriage). Whereas a man’s preference usually only has one flip of the switch, from not looking for a wife to looking for one. So people have no lens through which to interpret or measure male attractiveness, let alone to instruct men on what to improve.

    And there’s the fact that women tend to misattribute the actions of attractive men as attractive in their own right, when if they were done by an unattractive man they’d be creepy.

    I still maintain that the single biggest determiner of a man’s sexual success is not going to be what “league” he is playing in, but how attractive he is; if he’s hot, he’ll feast, if not he’ll starve. And it’s a very sharp cliff. While his body and wardrobe can be changed, the predominant aspect of this attraction value is his game, his intersocial apparatus.

  12. just visiting,

    “At the very least, considered unfit for dating unless you’re willing to come across sexually within a certain amount of dates. If sexual attractiveness is of prime importance, then it’s kind of hard to take the sexual out of the equation.”

    A woman who is attractive doesn’t have to actually put out to get the benefits of being attractive. Go to any big city in America and hot young women live a charmed life; men fall over themselves to give them attention, buy them dinners, drinks, clothes, gifts, vacations, bumping them to the front of the line and bringing them in for bottle service (that shit is expensive btw). All in the hope the girls will put out before the night is over.

    It’s just like a male player with money doesn’t have to actually spend his money on women to get hot girls; he just has to have money and let them sniff it and occasionally get a small slice of it, enough to imagine she “might have been mistress!” to all of his fortunes and lay claim to his lifestyle.

    And attractive women can leverage their looks in other ways, such as laying it on classy at the office to augment their career skills, or using them to curry favor with other women who can bring them various social and personal benefits.

    To clarify, I’m not making value judgments on “slut shaming,” fat shaming, virgin shaming or whatever. I’m just pointing out that societies exhibit moralized incentives to carry out the mating strategies that it holds as optimal, and one of those incentives is negative social value for those who don’t fit the ideal.

    My point was inspired by the comment that Indian society, which is known in certain sectors for being very heavy on the idea of marriage as the approved lifestyle choice, internalized the stigma of sluttitude into its young women. This got me thinking about what moral incentives would be exhibited by societies vis a vis their preferred mating strategies.

    In consumerized America, where it’s all about fun here and now, attractive people are going to be adulated, because they can, if they so choose, live out the overstimulated dream that society has pushed at us. America makes a lot of noise about the sanctity of the family, but when the chips are down a lot of them have decided that some other value (like their itinerant haaaappiness) is more important.

    Going along with “slut shaming” (rooted in concern about women not marrying or not being able to marry), anybody who has known Jewish Americans understands the immense force of bachelor shaming, in the form of the ubiquitous trope of the matron pestering her son about finding a nice girl and getting married. Societies and subcultures who feel it important that their sons and daughters marry find ways to make it uncomfortable not to, and to discourage them from becoming unmarketable as mates, and work hard to find them mates in semi-arranged marriage schemes.

  13. purplesneakers

    Speaking as a recovering fat girl…

    You’re underestimating the power of the female herd ;)

    Of course girls know that skinnier girls are more attractive. But very few women (except for bitchy enemies.. or your mother, in my case) will tell you that, no, you actually don’t look good, and will instead compliment your ‘hot dress’ or something. And as many people say, lots of girls project onto men and assume that they can make up for it with their personality, smarts, education, whatever. And while clearly all the hot women presented in the media are thin, that’s actually not what we’re taught/told by our peers, teachers, or families is what attracts men. There is a lot of ‘the media brainwashes girls into having eating disorders’ thinking out there. (Well, I think my family is an exception, being much more old school. My parents were always trying to force me to lose weight because otherwise I would never find a husband).

    Also, even chubby-to-moderately overweight young women get hit on, so in some cases that serves as additional rationalization for not losing weight. I guess some younger girls are happy to just have a man, regardless of anything else. I think this is another difference compared to young beta men, who probably have a complete sexual desert. However, I will say that before I started thinking about the sexual marketplace, I heard lots of “chicks dig jerks” and “man up!” type of stuff aimed at men, as advice on how to get better with women. The former from men, the latter from both men and women. While I don’t doubt that there are larger social influences that have eroded masculinity over the past few decades, in my personal experience, the advice I’ve heard men being given has actually not been too far from game principles (e.g. at my job one summer, a 20something guy told a teenage boy who was having trouble with his gf, who was basically eating him alive based on how he told it- “women want you to be a man and to be the dominant one in the relationship.” Another girl–probably indicative of most women, so this is definitely true, that women don’t even know their own attraction triggers–disagreed, but the guy askd me and I was honest and said I think it’s true).

    Anyway, in my experience, most young women (up to the end of college) don’t get fat without some kind of underlying emotional problem. After that it’s slowing down of metabolism, lack of watching what they eat or exercising, thinking they can live the same lifestyle, etc.

  14. purplesneakers

    Also, personally, I always knew that I would become more attractive if I lost weight (“you’d be so pretty if you lost weight”). Why didn’t I? Because I didn’t want it to be true.

  15. purplesneakers, thanks for visiting.

    “Because I didn’t want it to be true.”

    That is really fascinating. Same reason why so many men refuse to learn some game – they don’t want to see that it might actually work, it so deeply threatens their worldview.

  16. @Badger

    “I assume your new handle is related to that protracted discussion we had at HUS about “dining out”? :-o”

    Yes, yes it is lol :P

    “Whatever your gender, it’s obviously hard to be sexy if you can’t control what goes into your mouth (ah…see what I did there?)”

    +1 pure awesomeness.

    @purplesneaks/badge

    “purplesneakers, thanks for visiting.

    “Because I didn’t want it to be true.”

    That is really fascinating. Same reason why so many men refuse to learn some game – they don’t want to see that it might actually work, it so deeply threatens their worldview.”

    so very true. still in awe that i didn’t realize this possibility even tho i lived it myself. you want the world to be better than it really is, to accept you for who you are on the inside.

  17. purplesneakers

    “That is really fascinating. Same reason why so many men refuse to learn some game – they don’t want to see that it might actually work, it so deeply threatens their worldview.”

    Yeah, I was thinking about the parallel after I posted that. A lot of men are in denial when they take the red pill, as are many women about what would help them out in the dating market.

    It seems like the winners in the SMP are the realists, and the losers are the idealists.

  18. Indian Woman

    Ah, Indian Lallus? Seriously? Who cares what they call us? They want us to live with their moms their whole lives like they do!

    We call them “bhaiyas” and mama’s boys and they crawl home under ma’s sari pallo with their tail between their un-muscular legs.

  19. INDIAN GYAL

    “Some of the posters here say that men don’t slut shame, but I think young Indian men can sense how conscious Indian women are about being labeled sluts. They know that if they want to make an Indian woman feel bad, they can use the slut-shaming card. ”

    Bwahahahahahahahahah!!!!!

    Indian Lallus? Seriously?! Who cares what they think?

    All we have to do is call them “bhaiya” and they run to hide behind their mother’s sari pallou with their tails between their un-muscular, flabby, rice and daal legs.

  20. P Ray

    The most effective example of slut shaming I saw occured in a hall of residence at university, when one of the cleaners asked someone on our floor then whether a particular girl was bringing back guys as her bed seemed messier and there were different sets of imprints of mud-caked boots leading to her room.
    She threw a fit and was arguing for the length of the block for hours.
    She was Indian if it helped. Funny indeed, she was very concerned about her reputation among other girls. It seems shaming works best against those who have a lot to hide.

  21. SayWhaat

    It seems shaming works best against those who have a lot to hide.

    Not really. Shaming works against anyone who doesn’t want to seem like they have something to hide. People who really don’t have anything to hide actually act more nervous during interrogations, because they’re eager to prove their innocence. In contrast, those who do have something to be guilty about act more nonchalant.

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