Clueless SoCons, Redux

The Manosphere has been a-fire lately concerning conservative opinionator Bill Bennett’s recent book about “manhood” and a follow-up article by a feminist conservative complaining that men today “won’t grow up” and marry her awesomely awesome younger spirit-sisters.

Fellow bloggers Dalrock and Ferdinand Bardamu have both covered this issue in great detail. I for my part covered almost all of this stuff in my two-part series on Kay Hymowitz and her silly, uninformed screeds against young men. I really have no interest in re-arguing those points, so I will encourage new readers to review those pieces.

And I will add a few new thoughts that apply to the whole gang of them.

1. In my posts I noted that Hymowitz et al conflated alpha males, who refuse to “settle down,” and omega males, who don’t have anything to offer modern women. In light of these new, um, contributions, I’d like to refine that angle with another reference to Dalrock – these women resent alpha males because they are successful and non-committal, and they resent beta/omega males because they are unattractive and clingy (in other words, too committal).

2. One of the major threads of criticism in the Manosphere holds that feminism and so-called “traditionalism” are a lot more alike than either want to admit because they both seek to obligate men to benefit women’s interests. I called this “obligation masculinity,” and it only works as an organizing principle of society if obligation femininity also exists.

Bennett and Nance continue the streak – in their argument, men are told to do certain stuff and act a certain way for the benefit of women, children, the economy, society, God – everyone but themselves. Truly they are supposed to put everyone else’s interests ahead of their own, because “that’s what a man does.” Interesting how in their world, no one else is expected to put a man’s interest ahead of their own. “Traditionalist conservative” family models might claim to do this, but as Dalrock has pointed out even conservative churches speak like Christ but act like Oprah, refusing to publicly criticize the perpetrators of frivolous divorce. If they’re working for everyone else’s benefit, it’s not at all wrong to ask, what’s in it for them? (Lest you think I’m a hardened cynic, I understand that many relationships of all stripes are successfully built on a bedrock of balanced, mutually-interested sacrifice.)

3. Bennett, Nance and others try to lecture and shame men to “man up,” as if the problem can be fixed from the inside. This is simply an adaptation of free-market conservatives’ longtime arguments about poverty – “if you don’t like being poor, work harder!” It’s silly advice to the poor, because systemic poverty is a complicated, multi-generational macro-issue. Bennett tells guys to “get a challenging job.” Where are said jobs? Can they get them in vending machines for a dollar and a quarter? Men are supposed to be “responsible” for a wife and kids. What does that mean for a generation of men who were never taught how to be evenly modestly attractive to women? It’s easy for a guy who spent most of his productive years in funded government positions and writes soft-philosophy books that WASPs buy to put on their fireplace mantles to tell young men to just get up and go to work. There’s no there there.

4. The theme of “guys play too many video games” is almost universal in this discussion, especially coming from women. What amazes me, although it doesn’t surprise me, is the complete lack of censure for the female equivalents (collecting clothes, eating out and traveling). Hymowitz in fact openly praised the shallow, consumptive lifestyles of her Manhattan mentees while slamming men for so much as drinking beer.

In any case, I think the knock on video games, poker and guy-only trips to the bar is simply another way of invalidating the “secret worlds” of men. It’s de rigeur for women to question fraternities, sports teams and other male-only activities as exhibitions of repressed homosexuality. It’s like guys wouldn’t spend any time together unless they secretly wanted to bang (of course, the same critics would say there’s nothing wrong with being gay and would balk at true homophobia even as they delight in impugning the integrity of men’s sexuality).

The mocking of the competitive, fantastic worlds boys love is another layer of the onion. Just recently, a commenter at Married Man Sex Life questioned why Athol Kay had to put so much science fiction into his posts, as if it served some nefarious purpose to alienate women. At the time of the Hymowitz posts, a reader wrote me saying that long ago she had snagged her then-young son a used Star Wars comforter. He was thrilled. Boys want and need heroic stories, games and role models that stoke their imagination for big things – something scifi and fantasy provide in spades. Striving for a goal and seeking self-determination is how boys learn to grow into men.

I’m not going to elevate Sunday Night Baseball to the level of a religious ritual, but guys need guy time. Teamwork is a natural part of the male experience going back to the Time Before Writing. It fills a critical social role, even more so today where traditional “man zones” have been unilaterally opened up to women – first by fiat, then by the forces of cultural acclimation. By and large men of my generation have accepted women in the workplace, boardrooms, and even in locker rooms (as reporters or players) with aplomb. Is a pizza and beer night with no girls allowed really that much to ask in return?

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43 Comments

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43 responses to “Clueless SoCons, Redux

  1. I stand in awe of your memory, truly.

    I think guy time is very important for boys. There’s a lot of pressure these days to make coed playdates. Teachers pressure boys to include girls in their play. Of course, this is ridiculous. In elementary school, my daughter and her friends once invited a boy to be their “slave” in the “castle.” He had the good sense to decline and run off to play soccer.

    I think it’s also hard for men to carve out time for friendship with other males, particularly as they age. My women friends and I discuss this a lot. Few of the husbands have time that is just about being male. My husband has dinner with 5 other men once a month, and he really looks forward to that. They shout and debate and talk about everything that men are interested in when women aren’t around. It’s healthy.

    Finally, fantasy is important for all children. More precisely, role play is important for all children, and they get that through fantasy. Both sexes continue to enjoy that. I still enjoy it. I recently read the Hunger Game trilogy, a young adult series. I loved it.

    Women like their rom coms, and men like their superheroes. What’s wrong with that? It’s fun to return to an innocent, fantastical place from time to time.

  2. Looking Glass

    @ Susan:
    Because the operating principle for too many women is that “boys can’t have nice things”, whether we want to admit it or not. There’s nothing wrong with boys being superheroes, but the thought that boys aren’t girls is anathema to some women, who make sure everyone knows about it.

    Remember, men are “dangerous”, thus they shouldn’t be able to act like men. /snark

  3. OffTheCuff

    It’s hard to find guy-only time when you work full-time, and have to place that behind family time and wife time. (Our band happens to be guys, but most of the time is spent working or playing.)

    A few years ago, we were getting together with a married couple, our kids’ godparents. My friend Brian and I finally get on some decent topics, talking a bit about work which can be a bit technical. One of our wives kept making faces, rolling her eyes, and then finally broke and said something snarky like “Why do you have to talk about this stuff? Are you going to include US in the conversation?”

    (Like THEY’VE always refrained from female interest-only topics when we’re around. Right.)

    After a few times of this, I finally said “You two ladies get together all the time and talk about your stuff during the day. I get to talk to him for perhaps 1/2 hour every month or so, and sometimes we’re to going to talk about work.”

    Haven’t been bugged about it since. It’s not an unreasonable demand and we don’t ignore them the whole night.

  4. Butterfly Flower

    Bennett tells guys to “get a challenging job.” Where are said jobs? Can they get them in vending machines for a dollar and a quarter? Men are supposed to be “responsible” for a wife and kids.

    I’ve noticed women in the various modern conservative movements always emphasize the importance of traditional male responsibilities, but completely disregard the importance of female responsibilities.

    Men need to go out and find challenging jobs so they can afford to support a housewife. Women should….???

    Lately I’ve been trying to figure out just what my responsibilities [as a woman] are in a serious long term relationship:

    * Being faithful
    * Consider my boyfriend’s feelings
    * Not being a burden [ex. not making my boyfriend go out of his way for me]
    * Letting my boyfriend have his space to enjoy his own hobbies [I could tag along with my boyfriend to a sports bar but I feel like whenever I do that I ruin the experience for him 'cause he knows I'm not into sports so he'll keep asking if I'm okay and insist on leaving early. So now I let him go alone and have fun]

    …unfortunately, I bet a lot of women today consider these responsibilities optional.

  5. Mark Slater

    Hello, Badger. Long time admirer of the Hut, first time commenter.

    “It’s easy for a guy who spent most of his productive years in funded government positions and writes soft-philosophy books that WASPs buy to put on their fireplace mantles to tell young men to just get up and go to work. There’s no there there.”
    Very true. Mr. Bennett first came to prominence as Humanities chairman (he was chosen over a much better man, M.E. Bradford) in the Reagan administration. That was quite a number of years ago, all spent in the government sphere and, later, as a “conservative commentator”. Like most phony conservatives, Bennett observes MOST of the problem quite admirably, then kind of stalls.

    Butterfly Flower: “I’ve noticed women in the various modern conservative movements always emphasize the importance of traditional male responsibilities, but completely disregard the importance of female responsibilities.”
    This is at the heart of it. There is, of course, plenty of blame to go around.

  6. Hey, BF, I think you’re going to add a lot to that dude’s life by thinking like that. In turn, he’s going to add a lot to yours. Your comments made me think of a conversation I had with my mom years ago:

    My mom was tired and had to be up early the next day, but she was busy ironing clothes. I was getting ready to leave, and I admonished her to get some sleep.

    “I will, as soon as I’ve ironed your father’s clothes.”

    “They look fine, mom,” I said. “Just go to bed!”

    “I will NOT let YOUR FATHER go to WORK without sharply pressed clothes! He likes it and it makes him feel good,” she replied.

    My dad hasn’t touched an iron in 40 years. You know what he was doing while me and my mom were having that conversation, though? As soon as he saw her pull out the iron, he told me goodbye and went to put gas in her car to save her some time in the morning.

    My dad doesn’t worry about a lot of stuff. He’s always got clean laundry, neatly ironed or folded. If he wants to bring a lunch to work, it’s made and waiting in the fridge for him when he leaves. He only cooks when he wants to. To him, “cleaning the house” means bringing the vacuum up from the basement.

    My mom, on the other hand, probably can’t even draw a decent approximation of a lawnmower. She may or may not know that motor oil is necessary for the continued function of her car. She mentions that she would like the family room painted a certain color, and within a week I get a call to help my dad move some furniture and help him mask off the window. An offhand comment like,”My computer is acting weird today!” will get her laptop gone over with a fine-toothed comb by her badass computer-guy husband.

    I took that kind of devotion to roles for granted growing up, but I find it a thing of amazement and awe today. There is no bitterness or passive aggressiveness about it. They bust their asses for each other, and their lives are much better for it. It gives me the creepy crawlies when they look at each other and I see how in love they still are after four decades.

  7. Lavazza

    Mark Slater: Many years ago a commentator in a forum I was visiting coined the phrase “Feminism is about female rights and male responsibilities”. Apparently the same goes for SoCons.

  8. Lavazza

    Or obligations? I don’t what’s the best translation. Anyway, that is not something a woman can get in one on one negotiations/relations with men, so women need to use their votes to get the State to make this happen. And they have been very successful in doing so. Or maybe it’s been vote seeking politicians who have been coming up with this goodies as vote winners.

  9. Looking Glass

    http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/

    Just want to throw this link out there and let the Powers That Be rip the guy a new one. :)

  10. johnnymilfquest

    I think that we should re-appropriate the words “manning up” to mean something quite different.

    How about “man up” = “lie about your job”?

    Hey, I manned up. It worked for me ;-)

  11. “man up” => act like a higher value male

  12. Anonymous Reader

    Badger: value added posting. Thanks. Good job.

    All:
    “Man up” means several things. It means fulfill all demands, no matter how unreasonable, without complaint. It means be a robot, a vending machine, a walking ATM and on-demand sperm donor.

    Basically, when trad-cons say “Man up” they mean “Mule up” – be a good domestic animal, and maybe you’ll get some oats on Sunday.

    Eumaios: why it is that Bill Bennett can’t bring himself to write a book telling women what to do? Why is it that tradcons and socons never, ever demand that women act like higher value females? Can you explain these deep mysteries?

  13. SoCons yearn for traditional gender roles but have actually drunk the feminist kool-aide but in a rather weird way.

    The male SoCon leaders are like hen-pecked husbands, they just want the women to shut the hell up. So, they keep giving them what they want while hoping and praying to get some damned peace once in a while.

    As for the decree for men to shoulder their responsibilities and accept master’s whip, that’s just more validation bullshit just like new parents tell childless couples that “you really need to have a baby.”

  14. Anonymous Reader

    theprivateman
    The male SoCon leaders are like hen-pecked husbands, they just want the women to shut the hell up. So, they keep giving them what they want while hoping and praying to get some damned peace once in a while.

    Shazam! Male so-con/trad-con leaders are actually just betas? Betas who would rather shame other men than confront women about bad behavior? Betas who will White Knight in an instant, rewarding women’s bad behavior over and over again, thereby leading to more of the same bad behavior?

    This observation by theprivateman has a lot of implications to think about: for one thing, it explains why so many so-cons/trad-cons get so very irate about MGTOW – it’s the beta envy at work.

  15. Anonymous Reader

    Oh, and speaking of bad behavior by women – Ms Walsh, I’m looking right at you. Do your words mean anything, or not? Why don’t you “woman up” and reply in the other thread some time?

  16. Matt

    Jill Filipovic at Feministe says a lot of shit I disagree with, but I loved her response to Hymowitz when it came out.

    There’s something truly off-putting to girls about video games that does not extend to all guy time. My girlfriend’s reaction to video games–even when she’s trying earnestly to be okay with them–is much more negative than, say, her reaction when I tell her I’m having a night out with a bunch of guys and no girls.

    My only theory as to why is that whereas many other “men’s activities” display some modicum of alphatude–playing sports shows off athletic prowess, guys’ night out shows off leader-of-men-ness–video games show off zero alpha behaviors.

    I insist on playing video games occasionally anyway, because for me, it’s pure escape and, thus, restorative. Men just can’t buckle to women’s need to think of their men as all alpha, all the time. (This is why it irks me when I see sites like “my husband is annoying” showing pictures of me asleep for Chrissake.)

  17. Matt

    Er, that’s supposed to read “pictures of MEN asleep.”

  18. We’ve been posting short video interviews on our site for the last year and a half and haven’t really heard any discussion of the Game or alphas, omegas, etc. Maybe we need to find someone with that perspective and add them to our site? I have a feeling you guys will hate the responses of the men we talk to, but go check it out and let me know what you think:

    http://www.themansguidetolove.com/

  19. “Man up” means several things. It means fulfill all demands, no matter how unreasonable, without complaint. It means be a robot, a vending machine, a walking ATM and on-demand sperm donor.

    This.

    According to all the so/trad-cons I’ve interacted with, men are supposed to act this way.

    …sometimes it feels like so/trad-cons encourage women to disregard love and just settle for a man willing to follow the above script. Romantic love will fade – so you might as well settle for a walking ATM and on-demand sperm donor!

  20. Anonymous Reader: “Eumaios: why it is that Bill Bennett can’t bring himself to write a book telling women what to do? Why is it that tradcons and socons never, ever demand that women act like higher value females? Can you explain these deep mysteries?”

    AR, I was attempting a subversive quip, meaning that men should take the call to “man up” as a prescription for learning Game. Clarity of subversion fail. My bad.

    Regarding tradcon gynolatry:

    * you might enjoy the advice in Letters to Philip, a collection of letters from some preacher to his son about how to be a righteous husband. My father gave me a copy a long while back, and I stumbled across it during the worst times of my marriage. It was so full of well-intended advice and declarations that were completely incongruent with my actual experience of a woman that I ended up highlighting all the bizarrely false statements I could find. It actually served to open my eyes (somewhat) to my situation.
    * The Church Impotent mostly flubs the argument, but educes a variety of interesting primary sources that have led me independently to concur in the conclusion that Christendom became feminized about 800 years ago. Time to pull out S.K.’s “Attack on Christendom” and see what pops.
    * Tradcon men were raised to cater to their mothers.
    * “Higher value female” means, as a baseline, a physically beautiful female. Homely women are instantly ruled out. The surest way to lose a female follower is to intimate that she is unattractive, let alone to say it bald faced.
    * Females who meet the high value baseline are, as I think you are suggesting, never exhorted to build little green houses on their property, let alone robust red hotels. I propose that this is because tradcons impute an intrinsic virtue to all females. Describe the behavior of a feral female to a tradcon and you are likely to hear back that “Women just don’t act that way”.

  21. Anonymous Reader: “Man up” means several things. It means fulfill all demands, no matter how unreasonable, without complaint. It means be a robot, a vending machine, a walking ATM and on-demand sperm donor.

    Obnoxious Fem agrees stridently with AR, then does the obvious fem thing: “sometimes it feels like so/trad-cons encourage women to disregard love and just settle for a man willing to follow the above script. Romantic love will fade – so you might as well settle for a walking ATM and on-demand sperm donor”

    Fucking hell, female. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WOMEN HAVE FINDING TRUE LOVE. Criminitly.

  22. Fucking hell, female. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WOMEN HAVE FINDING TRUE LOVE. Criminitly.

    I have a boyfriend I’m head-over-heels in love with; finding true love for me wasn’t that hard [he was a guyfriend; he was afraid to ask me out 'cause I'm younger than him - but I'm legal so that no longer an issue] Nor do I believe there is a shortage good men.

    I’m concerned about the good men getting married to women that don’t even love them. So/Trad-cons imply a man’s ability to be a provider is more important than any chemistry a woman may have with him. I think marrying a man only because he makes sense on paper is a heartless thing to do. I can’t believe women have actually told me to do such a thing!

  23. Bennett’s fixation of video gaming is in fact quite deliciously ironic given his own gaming history, which is far more problematic than a guy who plays Halo with his buddies on Teamspeak a few nights a week.

  24. Ceer

    As a social conservative, I have to say that it’s vital for a man to be very selective who he marries because of the prevalence of divorce theft. Any man who makes a foolish decision necessarily feeds the divorce machine, and has his children taken away so he can’t raise them properly. The net impact on society is detrimental, especially at the opportunity cost of possibly having a decent marriage.

    Part of the social con. problem with reigning in women is cultural. Feminism has seeped into the women’s consciousness so much, that they tend not to tolerate any sort of negativity. I have heard shocking things from women about not being told what is a clear sin and what is not. Granted, I can’t be sure whether they were taught and conveniently forgot thanks to the hamster’s special gift, or whether they simply weren’t taught.

  25. Tschafer

    Bill Bennett seems to have no problem with video games as long as we’re talking about video poker. It would seem that playing an occasional game of “Call of Duty” is childish and immature, while dropping $500,000 on video poker is the acme of responsibility…

    No wonder no one listens to social conservatives anymore.

  26. I have heard shocking things from women about not being told what is a clear sin and what is not. Granted, I can’t be sure whether they were taught and conveniently forgot thanks to the hamster’s special gift, or whether they simply weren’t taught.

    “It’s a sin!” isn’t an effective deterrent. Statistically Christians are just as likely to have pre-marital sex as non-Christians.

    Lately it seems like people only practice Christianity when it’s convenient. “All that stuff I did in college didn’t count because I wasn’t really Christian back then…” “I asked God for forgiveness so my sins don’t count…”

    My boyfriend and I feel like we’re the only couple waiting until marriage. I don’t know why we have to struggle with chastity when it isn’t even considered important anymore. The hypocrisy is discouraging…

  27. Desiderius

    “I don’t know why we have to struggle with chastity when it isn’t even considered important anymore.”

    Don’t have to do anything, but it does have this benefit:

    Sex becomes something that you do with [insert husband's name here], not an abstract activity with a lot less meaning attached. It’s like your husband has a unique superpower that other men don’t have.

  28. P Ray

    “Statistically Christians are just as likely to have pre-marital sex as non-Christians.”
    At university, many of the people hopping in and out of beds were Christian. And held this over others “You are not allowed to judge” “Only God can judge me”

    To address the topic,
    Women say that men won’t commit. It’s because they reject the men that do want to commit.
    Any average woman gets more offers from average men, than any average man gets from the average woman.

    But of course, if the man has specific character standards as to what type of woman he wants to date (that matches his own, e.g. virgin)
    He is told that he is being judgemental and that no woman will want to be with a slug like him.
    That’s the reason why more men are disengaging. Reasonable requests from those who would make fine husbands, are ignored. Whereas women jump to the beat of the man who has everything made …
    then say “all men are bastards” when they don’t manage to wrangle a commitment from a man with the world at his feet.

  29. At university, many of the people hopping in and out of beds were Christian. And held this over others “You are not allowed to judge” “Only God can judge me”

    My favorite sanctimonious Christian statement is “we aren’t perfect, just forgiven.” It’s like faith in Jesus has been reduced to a “get-out-of-jail-free” card for misbehavior.

    But of course, if the man has specific character standards as to what type of woman he wants to date (that matches his own, e.g. virgin)
    He is told that he is being judgemental and that no woman will want to be with a slug like him.

    My boyfriend [a virgin] had this problem; he only recently admitted it. He turned down a few “reformed” sluts and developed a reputation for being stuck-up and having high standards. How dare he disregard repentant non-virgins. The sad thing is, my boyfriend actually felt like there was something wrong with desiring to be my first! He was all “I know it sounds weird…” [don't worry, I kissed away his insecurity ;) ]

    Women like Kay Hymowitz can make all these unrealistic demands from men; but men don’t even have the right to judge a woman’s past – especially not virgins like my boyfriend. Why does this so-con stuff always seem to boil down to “entitlement without responsibilities”?

    then say “all men are bastards” when they don’t manage to wrangle a commitment from a man with the world at his feet.

    Um, do you really wanna date the type of woman who only cares about status? You sound like a nice guy; you deserve better.

  30. Looking Glass

    @ Butterfly Flower:

    On the chastity bit, the simple truth is that putting physical pleasure ahead of all other considerations comes at a severe cost in the rest of life, it’s just hard to notice. Some will think it didn’t have a cost, but it does.

    However, the one thing I note these days: don’t beat yourselves senseless. The problem a lot of Christian non-sluts run into is delaying Marriage, after engagement, for years. As fallen humans, we don’t do well with torturing ourselves for years. For guys especially, that’s pretty much the truth. You should really have the “wedding” 6 to 9 months after the engagement. Don’t hold it off much longer than that. You’re just running your temptations through the roof. (It’s one of those things that builds up over time, too) You also don’t have to sign the papers for a marriage until later, if there’s some odd issue involved. And you don’t have to live together all of the time those first years. Being gone for chunks of time (completely school, etc) used to be pretty common. People just have a “it’ll happen at X time” mentality now, which is kind of stupid.

  31. Lavazza

    “At university, many of the people hopping in and out of beds were Christian. And held this over others “You are not allowed to judge” “Only God can judge me”

    My favorite sanctimonious Christian statement is “we aren’t perfect, just forgiven.” It’s like faith in Jesus has been reduced to a “get-out-of-jail-free” card for misbehavior.”

    They hear the “you cant judge me” part, but not the “eventually God will judge me” part.

    Most or many religions ascribe powerful transforming propensities to successful religious practice, like washing away not only recent sins, but all sins in this life or even a thousand lives, or placing one in a position of total unworldyness, beyond wordly morality.

    Since the transformation is described as almost inimaginable it is safe to assume that some lukewarm practice does not cut it.

  32. dragnet

    I didn’t realize you were the guy who came up with “obligation masculinity”. An excellent phrase.

    [Thanks for commenting, good to see you here. I do like the term.]

  33. Anonymous Reader

    Eumaios, thanks for the references, I haven’t the time to read them right now but will look for them later. As a student of history I’m always interested in anything that can illuminate “how did we get here?”. I have been invited to various churches over the years, a fair variety including many Protestant and Catholic services, and the cluelessness I find many times is just amazing. I’m no Bible expert, but I heard of Potiphar’s wife and Jezebel when I was a teenager, from an older relative. There’s a huge divergence between what those stories teach about women, and what churches today teach about women. It’s no accident that some PUA’s are cruising churches nowadays.

    So long as the social conservatives/traditional conservatives/what have you conservatives cannot bring themselves to criticize the bad behavior of women on its own – not in terms of “Oh, look what those poor women did that some bad man drove them to” – more and more people are going to just dismiss them as irrelevant to the issue. Frankly, the first time I skimmed Bennett’s article I found myself visualizing some crazy old guy on a grate yelling at people passing by – who carefully never make eye contact with him.

  34. “It’s like faith in Jesus has been reduced to a “get-out-of-jail-free” card for misbehavior.”

    We would be far better off taking his Kingdom talk seriously and wondering whether the King will actually find us useful to have around.

  35. deti

    Anon Reader:

    I always like seeing your comments. I know I’m going to pick up something new or a new perspective on something established.

    One of the most fascinating things I’ve gained new views on since coming to the Manosphere is women in church. I’ve said it here and at Haley’s: A woman’s church attendance or profession of belief in God or Judeo-Christian tenets does not mean she is much different socially or sexually than an “unchurched” woman. Most “churched” women rub shoulders too much with the world, and are just as hypergamous and materialistic as unchurched women. I’ve met young women just as fickle, bitchy and hypergamous in church as outside church — and some were even more so. . And there’s no criticism of women. This is one of the reasons I’ve sworn off PromiseKeepers. It consisted solely of hypercriticism of men.

  36. @Deti: These days there isn’t much of a difference between the behavior of Christians and non-Christians; so don’t expect church girls to be any more chaste than their secular counterparts. I went to a Catholic school; you’ll be surprised what sexual indiscretions my classmates told me “don’t count”.

    Concerning b!tchiness; there’s this common misconception among modern Christians that church attendance excuses poor behavior [the previously mentioned "belief in Jesus is a get-out-of-jail-free card" clause]. Christian women are amusing because they’re often self-righteous enough to actually justify their b!tchiness and entitlement complexes. “I’m treating you badly because you’re a sinner that doesn’t go to Church…” “I’m a virgin so I can demand things from men!” “God doesn’t want women to work, why can’t I find a good Christian man to provide for me? Why are all Christian men lazy losers that won’t provide for me?”

    Deti, I hope you can still have some faith. You sound like a decent guy; I’m sure you’ll meet someone soon. Just don’t fall for the nonsense of “God wants Christian men to marry entitlement princesses”. You deserve better.

  37. BF, deti is married with children.

    Lately it seems like people only practice Christianity when it’s convenient. “All that stuff I did in college didn’t count because I wasn’t really Christian back then…” “I asked God for forgiveness so my sins don’t count…”

    That’s not lately, it’s been like that for many years now and is the prime reason why I deconverted. The first quote denies repentance of sin (“I had fun back then and don’t regret it!”) which is required. The second is simply abusing grace under the auspices of being fallible. These people are not Christians and are hypocrites. I’d rather be a non-hypocrite atheist than a hypocrite Christian, and strangely, kicking God to the curb doesn’t make me sin more. My values were baked into my brain ages ago, and belief in fairy tales makes no difference to how I behave.

    My boyfriend and I feel like we’re the only couple waiting until marriage. I don’t know why we have to struggle with chastity when it isn’t even considered important anymore. The hypocrisy is discouraging…

    Monogamy is important, but waiting until marriage isn’t. If you both want to get married or are engaged, you are in the clear. Athol Kay has argued this quite better than I could.

    Why does this so-con stuff always seem to boil down to “entitlement without responsibilities”?

    As argued above, it’s because so-cons are feminists, and that’s the unstated but real goal of feminism.

  38. P Ray

    Talking about the idea of “women told to date men they have no feelings for”
    I think women marry men they have no feelings for. Which is why they usually have a checklist.
    They don’t seem to have a checklist for men they have random sex with.

    From my observations of feminism, it seems to have had only 2 objectives
    1. Unlimited sexual license for females, which then translates into “women will tell men who they have a right to be attracted to …”
    2. So that the women of step 1 always have a fallback position of sex-starved men to get married to “if you are interested in women of legal age, you sicken us!”

    Women are the one making it harder for the younger set of women to date.
    Because they are the ones spinning boogeyman stories to excuse their own bad behaviour (“Men are abusive jackasses” – ignoring the fact that she CHOSE to be in a relationship with an abusive jackass, as that gave her the gina tingles)

  39. P Ray

    “Um, do you really wanna date the type of woman who only cares about status? You sound like a nice guy; you deserve better.”

    Again, it’s the “man’s fault for not choosing well”.
    Bad women don’t come with labels … and the good women “stand up for men in their heads” (thanks, Chels!@dalrock)

  40. Twenty

    By and large men of my generation have accepted women in the workplace, boardrooms, and even in locker rooms (as reporters or players) with aplomb.

    For the record: I haven’t. I think the presence of women in these places is, to a first approximation, a terrible idea. (Some exception may be made for the workplace outside of management and engineering.) This is naturally an unpopular opinion, but it’s also the truth, and needs to be stated.

  41. grizzledwolf

    “Truly they are supposed to put everyone else’s interests ahead of their own, because “that’s what a man does.” Interesting how in their world, no one else is expected to put a man’s interest ahead of their own.”

    Really? I believe its the wife who is supposed to put her husband’s interests ahead of her own. Admittedly, the churches who seriously preach this tend to be ostracized and mocked by wider society, but they are still there.

    If any, the Christian message is that everybody, not just men, should be able to put the common good above the personal one.

  42. Pingback: Happy Birthday to the Badger Hut, Part 2: Best Posts | The Badger Hut

  43. Pingback: The Reason Why Men Reject Women | The Society of Phineas

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