A Low-Touch Culture Leads To Widespread Game Deficiency

Yet another epic thread at Hooking Up Smart has unearthed a gem. The always-insightful Dominican-born Stephenie Rowling responded to a comment on the thread thusly:

I also think that the reason there is so much sport-fu**ing going on is that overall the culture is very touch-negative and sexual intimacy became one of the ways to be close with someone.

I think you are onto something with this comment, is one of the big differences here about how people have “personal spaces” of the size of a small apartments and there is not kisses or hugs liberally given to people you meet, like in my culture. I wouldn’t be surprised if “touch deprivation” has to do with all the hook up culture being so prevalent. I wonder if ancient cultures were big on touching each other too…

I had never thought of it this way but it’s an accurate analysis. I lol’d at “personal spaces the size of small apartments.”

America is by and large a culture where people are walled off from each other. One of the big eye-openers when I started working to up my game was how hesitant I was to touch a woman I was interested in, even when she was giving signs it was welcome – and how effective it was at escalating the interaction. And because men raise their value when they stand out from the crowd, men who can use touch effectively (“kino” as the PUAs call it) massively differentiate themselves from average Joes afraid to put their paws on anybody.

As to why men in particular are generally poor at the touch game, it’s easy to figure out. It would repeat much work of the manosphere to discuss how male sexuality is criminalized from a very young age, and what Stephenie calls the “feelings-ocracy” has made a man “creepy” and/or worth a sexual harassment allegation if he uses in a way judged inappropriate. This promotes an overall feeling of anxiety and discomfort interacting with women entirely, and especially with romantic escalation.

Every culture has limits on what touching is deemed invasive, but Latin and Mediterranean cultures are well-known for being more tactile. A kiss on each cheek is de rigeur in some Spanish-speaking countries. My Belgian friends taught me that it’s three kisses on alternating cheeks (I am guessing this comes from both French and Spanish imperial influence; too bad the tradition of high-quality beer didn’t transfer the other way).

"This is my dance space. This is your dance space. I don't go into yours, you don't go into mine. You gotta hold the frame."

One of the most effective ways I learned about using touch effectively was from a ballroom dancing class. There’s a subtle line between sexual and non-sexual touching that takes place in partner dancing – how to be sensual while maintaining a literal “frame.”

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43 Comments

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43 responses to “A Low-Touch Culture Leads To Widespread Game Deficiency

  1. detinennui32

    First of all, before anyone goes off the deep end, no one is talking here about men pawing or groping women. We’re talking here about light touch and gradual escalation — a brush of hands, a touch on a shoulder or forearm to guide a woman where you want her to go or to make a point in conversation.

    Part of the analysis necessarily includes the control of touch in intersexual relationships. Sexual harassment and criminal laws sought to wrest control of this from both men and women, and place it solely in women’s hands. In today’s skewed SMP, women are now the sole arbiters of what touch is “acceptable”, “creepy”, or “sexy”. Simultaneously feminists sought to absolve themselves of any responsibility to tell a man if they ilke or don’t like the touching. Betas received and internalized the message that touch is never acceptable unless she explicitly consents to it first.

    By contrast, alphas reject feminist frames, adopt their own frames, are willing to risk more and initially don’t care if the touch is rejected. If it is rejected and the set goes south, it’s off to a new set with someone else.

    Game seeks to put some of that control back in men’s hands and level the playing field.

  2. Well-put as always, deti.

    Subtle touching is one of the ways for a man to “present” to a woman – she may or may not be attracted, you don’t really know; so you approach her and say hello. Conversation is going well but you don’t know if she’s just being polite or is really interested in you. So you break out some low-level kino and see how she reacts. If cold, your set is probably done; if warm, keep it up. In either case, you calibrate to her comfort level and don’t go more than a step further than she’s responded to you (e.g. you don’t full-throat her if she touches your wrist asking about your watch).

  3. Let me add to my previous comment…in a touch-normal culture, men are doing the tactile initiation as a matter of course, so a good part of the escalation is already done – it’s simply her job to respond. In American culture today, men are culturally and mentally held back from the initiation, in part because the consequences of kino’ing someone who’s not interested are so high in pyrotechnic rejection, public shaming or even legal consequences.

    A good way to get comfortable with touch that I used earlier in life is to touch women’s back shoulders when navigating a crowded bar or party. Just a simple “excuse me” as you walk past a woman in your path and put a soft but firm hand on her shoulder to let her know to turn or move out of the way. You can do the same with dudes to get comfortable and it’s no-homo.

  4. whiteboykrispy

    Kino was one of the biggest things I had to really work on starting out. I’d have to force myself to because there was such resistance coming from the back of my mind, and even in the times I did it I always had this unjustified but nevertheless present feeling that what I was doing was “awkward”.

    I think this also may be part of why American girls tend to romanticize Mediterranean men a lot- they behave very sensually. They don’t have the inhibitions that American men are programmed to have.

  5. detinennui32

    As I sit here and think about this, it occurs to me a lot of men coming up after me (I’m in my early 40s and attended college in the late 80s) probably have no idea what kino is or how to use it.

    I remember in high school and college doing this. It was just natural. Sometimes it worked, most times it didn’t. Most of the time you used it to smoke out whether the girl is interested or not. In college I was a lot more aggressive with kino (but it wasn’t called that; you just did it).

    Kino is lIght — very light — touching. Hand, wrist, forearm, shoulder. With your fingertips. Using one hand. Anything more than that is probably going to be seen as overly aggressive or an attempt to overpower. As you get further into it, maybe arm around waist to direct her somewhere. Never longer than a few seconds in public. Do not use the hand to grasp, hold or grip.

    The intent and purpose is twofold: gauge attraction and increase comfort. It’s used to do the following:

    1. make or emphasize a point in conversation
    2. escalate
    3. keep her attention directed at you and not others
    4. guide her to another place in the venue

    Ass-patting or feeling her up are NOT kino.

  6. Good post. I think a point of game that isn’t talked about much any more – there’s more to seduction than just kino’s – it’s all about understanding the cultures space issues – and how to enter a woman’s space as an alpha. Basically to not come off as creepy.

  7. Richard Cook

    It certainly doesn’t help that the law considers any contact (in Illinois) to be battery.

  8. jlw

    I hate people touching me. Always have. I avoid doctors and dentists as best I can for just that reason. My mother said I was the only baby she’s ever known who screamed when picked up instead when put down. So, speaking selfishly just for me, I love personal space and frostiness in greeting. My English ancestry, perhaps.

    On another note, from just down the road from Badger:

    http://www.chicagonow.com/sex-money/2011/09/most-women-i-know-are-pro

    Omegas don’t have to worry about this.

  9. Fantastic post with a lot of truth.

    I work with a lot of women from other countries, Europe and S. America, and it took me back, at first, how touchy they were. They second day I had met them they would come up and hug me and kiss me on the cheek, to me they were still a stranger, but they were perfectly comfortable with this.

    I think the lack of social expansion plays in here too. In America everyone has “their group of friends” but thats it. Americans dont like to meet new people, let alone accept them enough to be platonicly intimate like a kiss on the cheek or a hug.

    This is one of those love/hate topics too. The coldness of Americans does suck, but since being red pilled, kino has been one of (if not the) most effective tool I’ve learned. I never really had any issues with touching someone before, though years ago I was a notorious hand hoverer.

  10. OffTheCuff

    I agree we are touch-deprived and it has to come out somewhere.

    Game can also be the antidote at figuring this stuff out. Touching lightly on the arm to make a point is very easy. But also…

    A few weeks ago my band’s former vocalist (Miss New Hampshire, high-maintenance type) was visiting for a rehearsal. One guy in the band was monopolizing her time a bit too much, and I wanted to say hello and talk briefly about some music. How to interrupt?

    So I walked right up, and tapped her shoulder. A poke in the arm would’ve worked too. Relieved for the interruption, she spun around to me, dropped him like a stone, and hugged me hello. Hey, great to see you!, etc.

    Then it occurred to me… I smirked, and tapped at my cheek for a kiss. It worked, so I did it again. It’s almost too easy, when you know the unwritten rules.

  11. Stephenie Rowling

    Wait people pay attention to what I write!!??? My mind is blown!!! :p

    Thanks for the compliment, I’m blushing right now. :D

    I work with a lot of women from other countries, Europe and S. America, and it took me back, at first, how touchy they were. They second day I had met them they would come up and hug me and kiss me on the cheek, to me they were still a stranger, but they were perfectly comfortable with this.</i?

    I actually was about to hug my supervisor I was just seconds away and quickly changed to a hand shake to avoid confusions. I meet the guy for like two months now so my body is all like "I know this person, let's hug him!" I had the same issues meeting my hubby's friends I had to stop myself from kissing and hugging them at the first meeting, although I failed and now they all hug me and kiss me so I guess is okay with them now.

    Is very ironic, that I have to unlearn to touch people to avoid being considered weird at my work place or worst my boss might think I'm hitting on him,he has a rep, while you have to learn it. Culture clash at its finest.

  12. Stephenie Rowling

    Take two!
    I work with a lot of women from other countries, Europe and S. America, and it took me back, at first, how touchy they were. They second day I had met them they would come up and hug me and kiss me on the cheek, to me they were still a stranger, but they were perfectly comfortable with this?

    I actually was about to hug my supervisor I was just seconds away and quickly changed to a hand shake to avoid confusions. I meet the guy for like two months now so my body is all like “I know this person, let’s hug him!” I had the same issues meeting my hubby’s friends I had to stop myself from kissing and hugging them at the first meeting, although I failed and now they all hug me and kiss me so I guess is okay with them now.

    Is very ironic, that I have to unlearn to touch people to avoid being considered weird at my work place or worst my boss might think I’m hitting on him,he has a rep, while you have to learn it. Culture clash at its finest.

  13. I’m glad you ran with the point that was made about our culture being touch negative. I totally agree. In fact, I’m generally a very “mushy” person, but I tend not to be much of a hugger, and I really can’t bear it when friends kiss me on the lips. I think it’s been conditioned out of me.

    I am particularly intrigued by the idea that casual sex becomes a stand-in for regular intimate touching. Like it’s the only way we know we’re guaranteed to get touched.

  14. Hope

    I don’t really think casual sex is a stand-in for a low-touch culture. Many parts of East Asia are also very low-touch. You don’t touch other people, don’t hug people upon greeting, and kissing someone you just met would be unthinkable. Even among family members kissing is restricted to perhaps a young child kissing a grandparent. But they also control sex strictly.

    I can agree with the “game deficiency” part though. Asian men are not renowned for their sensual sexuality.

  15. Undersexed men and women are crazy for touch. Kino is gold.

  16. Pingback: Scientific Evidence for the Game Effectiveness of Kino | The Badger Hut

  17. Uncalledfor

    wbk: I’d have to force myself to because there was such resistance coming from the back of my mind, and even in the times I did it I always had this unjustified but nevertheless present feeling that what I was doing was “awkward”.

    …the inhibitions that American men are programmed to have.

    Curious: what kind of “programming” are you imagining here? Where do you think you learned these inhibitions, and from whom? Was it personal to your experience, or do you think widespread in the culture/society?

    Anyone else is also free to venture an answer.

  18. Stephenie Rowling

    Another anecdote about touch in USA.
    There is a part of mass where you get to give the peace, comes from a moment on the gospels were Jesus said: “Mi paz os dejo, mi paz os doy” it translate “may the peace be with you” well in my country you hug everyone in near vicinity as a sign of peace.
    When I was feeling a little homesick I went to the nearby catholic church to hear mass and I was hoping for free hugs. Well here people give you a handshake!!! Not even a good one, more like coldish hands, I was completely shocked by that.
    Personal space: not even Our Lord can trespass it.

  19. When I first arrived in Sicily and began approaching the local girls, the first thing they so after inteoductions is kiss both cheeks. It took me some time to get used to it. But dating there was sooooo easy. Say hello, converse, get number, make date. if it went well, sex followed within 1 week. Seriously. To them sex is so natural and the girls automatically assume if you’re talking to her, it’s because you want to have sex with her.

    I datesd michelle for 3 weeks before we finally slept together. And it happened soooo naturally.

    Sonia, 2 weeks. We were both REALLY into each other.

    We need to get our shot together out here

  20. When I first arrived in Sicily and began approaching the local girls, the first thing they so after inteoductions is kiss both cheeks. It took me some time to get used to it. But dating there was sooooo easy. Say hello, converse, get number, make date. if it went well, sex followed within 1 week. Seriously. To them sex is so natural and the girls automatically assume if you’re talking to her, it’s because you want to have sex with her.

    I datesd michelle for 3 weeks before we finally slept together. And it happened soooo naturally.

    Sonia, 2 weeks. We were both REALLY into each other.

    We need to get our shot together out here

  21. 108spirits

    I’m pretty open with physical contacts since I’m very into dancing and have a habit to French it up with the hugs & cheek kissing. “Kino” was never a problem when I learned about it.

    What I had to do was toning down kino, even eliminating it in some case until I’ve already got the girl. The reason is that kino as taught by the PUAs is for the guys who are normally not regarded as sensual / sexual beings. Kino helps them communicate their sexuality and therefore changes women’s initial impression of them. However, if you’re already appearing as a sexual guy, doing this might very well be counterproductive, like you just want to get some. There are better and more subtler ways to communicate sexually. Save the kino escalation (other than the very basic touches) for when you have the situation & logistics to close the deal.

    I can agree with the “game deficiency” part though. Asian men are not renowned for their sensual sexuality.

    Because they’re raised by and have to put up with Asian women.

  22. Butterfly Flower

    I’m Italian; our casual physical contact is usually linked to etiquette.

    Like, if I run into a friend first I’ll greet them with a hug, then say hello. It would be considered rude to not immediately hug first.

    When I was feeling a little homesick I went to the nearby catholic church to hear mass and I was hoping for free hugs. Well here people give you a handshake!!! Not even a good one, more like coldish hands, I was completely shocked by that.
    Personal space: not even Our Lord can trespass it.

    Here in NYC that’s the main differences between a Latin-American parish and an Irish-American parish. & it’s fun to witness a churchgoer experience the situation in reverse “…why is everyone hugging?”

  23. Vjatcheslav

    Being a Belgian, I have to comment on this: “My Belgian friends taught me that it’s three kisses on alternating cheeks.” In the Dutch-speaking part kisses are generally restricted to family. My experiences in the Walloon part are that between people one simply knows reasonably, it’s one kiss, and three kisses for family. But keep in mind that even within Belgium there are quite some differences, especially as to the number of kisses.

  24. Looking Glass

    I do have to recommend jlw’s link for a funny read:
    http://www.chicagonow.com/sex-money/2011/09/most-women-i-know-are-prostitutes/

    She both gets the way things work, hates it and is also seemingly suggesting to keep doing it. I think her hamster had a coronary in the middle of that post.

  25. Jennifer

    Hello Badger! My fascination with human mating behavior and of male psychology in particular led me to your blog, and I have to say I’m very impressed with and interested in the flowing exchange of ideas here, and I’ve learned a lot! I wanted to comment on this post and share some of my personal experiences, which may provide some insight.

    I’ll start by saying that I have always been very successful with men. After being in two very long-term relationships, and after leaving my previous one two years ago, I was determined to stay single for a bit. I met and dated a lot of men, and this post about touching made me realize something: In my one year of being single there were three men who I was overwhelmingly attracted to and all three of them touched me within the first hour (or less) of meeting me. I don’t recall any of the other men doing so, but I suppose memory is selective sometimes! One of them, a gorgeous man and true alpha male, asked if I would go outside to talk to him, and held my hand as we walked and talked. After talking for a bit, he put his hands on my waist, and kept them there for quite some time. Another man, one who I didn’t find especially physically attractive at first, was nonetheless uber-confident and therefore quickly became very attractive to me. When he asked me out, he ever so gently put his hand and arm around my waist. Something about that touch changed him from a maybe to a definitely. The third man, who is now my boyfriend of one year, maintained a very close physical proximity to me for the first few hours after we met (sitting very close, legs touching, etc) and by the end of the night he had his arms around my shoulders. With the exception of the first man, who I was immediately attracted to, the other men were sort of ‘under my radar’ at first. Ultimately it was probably their confidence in being unafraid to gently touch me and demonstrate their true level of attraction to me that made me begin to see them as attractive. They set themselves apart from other men who showed hesitation, or insecurity. I don’t know if all women would respond as I did, but as an extremely feminine woman I am attracted to extremely masculine men. Being unafraid to gently and respectfully (respectful can’t be emphasized enough!) touch a woman demonstrates true, confident masculinity, in my opinion.

  26. Reality Check

    Jennifer,

    Very interesting commentary and perspective on your part there. Much appreciated.

    If I may ask, though, could you further elaborate upon by what you mean (or have in mind) when you spoke of being an ‘extremely’ feminine woman being attracted to ‘extremely’ masculine men? (I mean this sincerely and respectfully since you piqued my interest/curiosity on how a lady such as yourself would define extreme levels of femininity and masculinity.) Many thanks.

  27. Badger, I think you’re on to something with this thesis. For the most part, the only adults I’ve met who are receptive to touch are people I know from church. Everyone else seems very threatened by hugs, and I’ve met a number of people who have proclaimed how much they hate being touched by anyone.

  28. Excellent post, Jennifer, attesting to how touch done right isn’t creepy and can create attraction.. I was confused for a bit, so I take it you’re not the Jennifer from Haley’s.

    My experience is totally the opposite of Haley’s, both as a kid, as an adult. But being a man, we have extra social restrictions who we can hug and how.

  29. Uncalledfor

    Jennifer: Being unafraid to gently and respectfully (respectful can’t be emphasized enough!) touch a woman demonstrates true, confident masculinity, in my opinion.

    Hmm. How do you analyze the case, when it turns out that the woman didn’t want to be touched at all, no matter how gently or respectfully? (in which case, of course, “touching” will be re-named as “groping” or “pawing”.) Is it still “truly masculine” to go ahead and touch a woman uninvited, even if you’re not she wants it or would be pleased by it? or is it essential to masculinity to be able to tell what/when a woman wants?

    When you say “being unafraid”, for those men who are afraid, what exactly do you think they are afraid of? What are you picturing?

  30. Verite

    Off The Cuff,

    Thank you. Yes I am a different Jennifer, that was actually my first time commenting on any blog, ever :-) I’ve tried to change my name to distinguish myself, I can see how it could be confusing just being ‘Jennifer’!

    [Welcome to the community.]

  31. Verite

    Uncalled For,
    Of course it’s never acceptable to touch a woman when it’s clear she does not want to be touched. Masculinity in any of it’s definitions is useless unless accompanied by consideration and respect for the woman he is interacting with. Detinennui32 made some excellent points about when and how to use appropriate touch. As far as a man being able to judge when touch is appropriate I think two things are essential: accurate self assessment and social skill. That is, how far above (or below) you in MPV is the woman you are approaching/ speaking to? If you are a good-looking alpha you can assume many, if not most, women will be pleased by your attention and will respond favorably. If you are a male 6, for example, confidence may get you far with a woman who is maybe a point or two higher, but it’s important to know just how far you can go. And it is crucial to be able to judge a woman’s interest in you and therefore receptivity to your touch i.e. social skill (reading body language, facial expression, tone of voice, etc). So yes, I would define true masculinity as having enough experience with women to be able tell if she probably will or will not be receptive to you. Which leads to the next point. Being afraid of something usually stems from not having any, or enough, experience with it. In this case, it would be a fear of not knowing how a woman will react to you touching her. An inexperienced man would be afraid of being rejected, yelled at, ridiculed (sometimes women can be so nasty!). Inexperience would come from insecurity, being afraid to talk to women…the opposite of confident masculinity. An essential quality of masculinity is courage in going after what you want.

  32. Verite

    Reality Check,

    Sure I would be happy to elaborate, although I have so much to say on the subject I’ll try to keep it concise! I define extreme femininity, in part, as being characterized by: nurturing, compassion, warmth, class, grace, and an understanding of the power of physical appearance. Long hair, soft skin, a full yet firm and healthy body. Essentially it is a focus on beauty, softness, and feelings. I suppose it relates to creating a home and all that is best in life…good food, affection, family, and a strong foundation of loyalty and support. It is a quiet strength, more passive in nature.

    Extreme masculinity is essentially opposite. It is active, assertive, courageous in the face of uncertainty or fear. It experiments to test boundaries, and goes after what it wants. It is self-assured and independent, although a truly masculine man will have other men who respect him and will help him in his cause, whatever it may be. An extremely masculine man has a body as strong as his mind. Broad shoulders, large chest and arms. He is focused on action, getting things done, and usually quite competitive with other men. And he is also extremely sexual. Honestly, I could probably write a book about this lol, but these are my very basic definitions.
    Essentially they are opposities, and in being so provide a ‘balancing out’ to what the other needs.

  33. Uncalledfor

    Verite — I appreciate your reply, but frankly I’m not really left any wiser. It may just be that I’m slow, but I find what you’ve put down here to be both tangled and circular.

    Of course it’s never acceptable to touch a woman when it’s clear she does not want to be touched.

    I don’t really disagree here; but we’re talking about exactly the situations where these things are not “clear” to everyone.

    As far as a man being able to judge when touch is appropriate I think two things are essential: accurate self assessment and social skill.

    So social skill, and particularly reading people’s feelings well, is an essential part of masculinity? That’s kind of a new one on me, but I’ll go with it for a while….

    If you are a male 6, for example, confidence may get you far with a woman who is maybe a point or two higher, but it’s important to know just how far you can go.

    Again, the secret key to life is being able to read others correctly. So, those who can’t do so need not apply? and should instead just sit in a corner and not bother anyone? How sad, even if accurate.

    So yes, I would define true masculinity as having enough experience with women to be able tell if she probably will or will not be receptive to you.

    Here we start to circle the whirlpool, though. Masculinity requires past successful experience, right? so it’s not something that any man can just “do” or bring about if he doesn’t have that experience? It’s sort of like saying that you can’t get a first job unless you already have three references from previous jobs (hello, recent college grads!).

    An inexperienced man would be afraid of being rejected, …. Inexperience would come from insecurity, being afraid to talk to women…the opposite of confident masculinity.

    Having illustrated the blessed upward spiral, where confidence leads to success which in turn leads to more confidence, we now see the cursed downward spiral in which insecurity leads to inexperience (ie lack of success) which leads to more insecurity. It sounds as though, at some early age — 14? maybe? — a boy is either on the up escalator or the down, then joy or woe betide him, respectively ever after.

    What I really find rankling in all this, though, is that you really seem to be equating “masculinity” with what is effectively just plain “good luck” — lucky enough to be on the upward spiral instead of the downward one, for whatever reason.

    An essential quality of masculinity is courage in going after what you want.

    And here we’re in a hopeless tangle again. From what you’ve said above, any man should only “go after what he wants” with a woman if he has some reasonable belief that the “go after” action will be welcomed by her — that’s just basic “consideration and respect,” as you said. But if that’s true, then it doesn’t really require courage on his part, does it?

    So in the end I have to differ with you. As a matter of personal definition, I think the core of masculinity is character, particularly having the strength of character to do what’s right when called upon to help and protect other people. This maps perfectly onto the old images of the lone sheriff or the stoic soldier, and has absolutely nothing to do with social skills or reading body language correctly. What you describe seem to me more like drugstore cowboys, all front and might as well be hollow inside; but, whatever turns you on, you know? Anyway, that’s one man’s opinion.

  34. I think Verite and Uncalled for both have very good points. Being “the Man” is attractive, but the fact is that for all but a few men, masculine confidence has to be learned and trained and doesn’t come naturally – like dancing or athletics for most people. Our modern culture is an additional barrier that discourages it.

    So it’s hollow to assert that guys will be more attractive if they do these “masculine” things because so many men lack the guidance and patience of someone who can help them develop – especially if that someone is a woman, she’ll be very averse to watching him grow if she thinks she can get the brass ring instead of doing time in the minors as her quarry develops.

    Now, some women have very high sexual market value, and so they CAN and do get fully-developed masculine men right out of the box. That’s their birthright, almost literally.

    Most women won’t have that luxury, just as most men don’t have the tools intrinsically.

  35. Retrenched

    Uncalledfor does a good job of explaining the “nice guy” dilemma pretty well.

    “Nice guys”, like all guys, like girls and would like to get phone numbers, dates, kisses, sex and all that good stuff. However, nice guys have been taught since puberty, perhaps even earlier, that they must never ever ever ever ever “harass’ a girl or “creep” her out, that this is a horrible horrible thing that men should never ever ever do.

    So what happens? Well, Mr. Nice Guy hangs around girls and manages to befriend a few of them. He may even get a date or two here or there. BUT. Getting dates is just the first step. He will still have to escalate at just the right time, in just the right way.

    And with every attempt at escalation, every bit of flirting, touch, kiss attempt, etc., comes the risk of rejection. And not just rejection, but potential charges of “creepiness”, “harassment” or even “assault” for a clumsy or mistimed approach or advance. Unless a guy happens to be clairvoyant, he can never be 100% sure his advance will be well received. Even experienced guys get rejected sometimes, after all. And young, inexperienced guys will be especially clueless about things like this.

    So rather than risk this, the “nice guy” doesn’t make a move, even when it seems like the girl might actually like him. In the end, both “nice guys” and the girls who like them end up frustrated.

    The ironic thing about this is that feminists who want to rigidly enforce the “nice guy” rules ridicule and demonize the men who actually follow them, while rewarding many of the men who break them with lots of free sex.

  36. detinennui32

    Uncalledfor and Retrenched explain the problem well. My solution was simply to practice. Practice makes perfect. But first, a nice guy will need to do the following, in my opinion:
    1. Firm up his inner game. Get confidence in his job, his hobby, his pastime.
    2. Get a good circle of male friends.
    3. Read here and at other sites to gain a good understanding of female psychology and game.
    4. Realize and internalize that if you want to meet girls and get numbers, dates, kisses and sex, you’re going to face rejection, and lots of it. Just accept that now as part of the price of admission.
    5. Learn the IOIs. I cannot emphaisize thie enough. if you don’t start seeing IOIs in 5 minutes of conversation, she’s not interested. If she seems meh or bored or distracted or hostile, she’s not interested. Bail out and move on.

    That’s for starters for the men.

    For women:

    1. ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY AND OWNERSHIP FOR YOUR ACTIONS, WANTS, NEEDS AND DESIRES. Dammit, if you like a nice guy, help him out a little. This is not Victorian England. This is the United States in the 21st century. If you can vote, own property and manage multimillion dollar accounts, you can accept responsibility for what goes on six inches below your damn navels. You probably earn more than that nice guy you like. If you like him, give him some unmistakable IOIs. Give him your number. Don’t flake. Don’t listen to your friends.
    2. It is your responsibility to speak up if you don’t like something. Dammit, don’t just sit there with your protection shields up and shriek “creepy” or “Sexual harassment” when something you don’t like happens. If you don’t like kino, just say so. That nice guy will move on. Of course, most other guys won’t approach you either with that attitude, but if that’s what you want……
    3. You women need to ditch the lies feminism is telling you. Please get it in your heads that nearly every nice guy is NOT creepy. Nearly every nice guy wants sex too; they just don’t go about it in exactly the way you want. Nearly every touch is NOT sexual harassment; it’s just kino. (Jesus, if you don’t like it, just say so. It’s not a federal case. It’s not assault. You were not bruised or injured. It will not kill you.) Nearly every escalation attempt is NOT a potential rape or a pump & dump. (Jesus, he’s just trying to move things along. If you don’t want it, ferchrissakes, just SAY SO. He ‘s not trying to injure or kill you, and it has no real broader political or sociosexual meaning. HE LIKES YOU AND HE’S TRYING TO SHOW YOU THAT.

    3. If you’re interested, throw out an IOI. If you’re not, say so. Don’t give us BS like LJBF or I have a boyfriend.

  37. Anacaona

    Hi Badger
    I’m Stephenie Rowling I’m going to change to this handle to avoid confusion with the new Steph at HUS.

  38. Verite

    Uncalled For,

    You’re response was eye-opening indeed, and Badger’s use of the word ‘hollow’ was, unfortunately for me, appropriate and spot-on. My intention in my comments was genuine, as I meant to explain a concept, which was: “I am a desirable woman (which I self assess based on experience), this is who and what I am attracted to, so do these things…”. I see now this was insensitive, over-simplified, and not particularly helpful. I do not know what it is like to be a ‘nice guy’ and to have to navigate the current SMP, which apparently has told boys one thing while they are growing up and learning to be men, then when these boys become men they find much of what they have learned (about women in particular) is incorrect. The truth is that as much as I can deeply empathize with this difficult and complex situation, I can’t possibly begin to instruct a man on how to adopt the traits that will make him more attractive and successful with quality women. I can only comment on what it is that a feminine woman does and doesn’t find attractive, and why.

    One point that I was trying to make, and one that I stand firm on, is that yes, social skills are important. They are important regardless of gender or where one falls on the masculine-feminine scale (the most devastatingly attractive man I have ever met is a master of communicating and reading others, male and female), and being able to communicate well with and ‘read’ others actually does contribute strongly to a happy life, which is based on happy relationships. Would you agree? So no, one does not have to sit in a corner and not bother anyone. The most important point of all is that these skills can be learned. I have also read Yohami’s blog, and I agree completely with his concept (as I perceive it) that one can become ‘alpha (i.e. displaying attractive masculine traits that women respond favorably and sexually to)’ by unlearning the false information that you were unfortunately taught as a boy and reclaiming your inherent masculinity. It’s not about faking it like PUA’s, but practicing it until you understand it and it becomes who you are, your default way of being. As far as learning when it is and isn’t appropriate to touch women, Detinennui32 is gold. I completely agree with everything in his comment about practice. Which is what I was attempting, albeit unsuccessfully, to say…how does one ever get better at, or understand, anything if one doesn’t practice it? That includes women.

    The truth is I love men, respect them, and empathize with them. And I have met so many that are clueless with women. I don’t think we’re that complicated. We want strength, protection, and a smoldering sexuality. Sadly, most women don’t realize this about themselves and have been brainwashed to say “I just want a nice guy”, when we all know how that usually turns out.

    And for the record I also believe that true masculinity is strong character at it’s core. When I was single, I was selecting for character above anything else in a LTR. That’s why I chose the man that I’m with. A loving, honest, thoughtful, yet extremely masculine man with the strongest character of any man I have ever met.

  39. Great post and comment thread here Badger. I’m late to the party but this seems spot on to me. After spending some time overseas, I came back feeling that we Americans are largely paranoid and xenophobic, even anti-social by comparison. My German friends routinely hug their friends and they have a custom of “give the girls a kiss”, which goes for their platonic girl friends. They hold hands more, kiss in public more. We have a lot to learn from them as a culture. Also, I routinely see Asian women walking hand in hand, even here. I applaud them for keeping their own social norms amidst our conflicting ones.

  40. Dirt Man,

    Thanks for commenting. Our culture is very anti-social compared to the Mediterranean coast, but compared to Germany? We have a lot of work to do.

  41. I’ve been going to social events lately where it’s almost impossible to even talk to someone of the opposite sex, everyone is so on guard.

  42. Pingback: Happy Birthday to the Badger Hut, Part 2: Best Posts | The Badger Hut

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