Cattiness and the Un-Selected Man

“Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” – William Congreve

“Hell hath no fury like a woman’s for an unattractive man.” – Manosphere wisdom, captured by Badger

[pre-emptive hat tip to In Mala Fide and BbSezMore, whose posts turned me onto this issue.]

It seems a brouhaha has erupted across the Internets concerning one Alyssa Bereznak, an intern (until this week) at technology blog Gizmodo, and her date with Jon Finkel whom she met on OkCupid. Finkel revealed he had a thing for the card game Magic: The Gathering. Upon returning from the date, she googled Finkel and found that he didn’t just play Magic – he was a patriarch of the game, a former world champion with his own Wikipedia page.

Here’s where it gets weird. Sufficiently turned off by this revelation (keep in mind this woman works at a technology blog), she decided instead of saying uncle to go on a second date with the man, apparently with the aim of collecting further information she could use for the snarky Gizmodo post she vomited to the world Monday. She asked him pointed questions about his continued involvement in Magic, as if he were a recalcitrant heroin user. She tried to re-frame the situation as one in which he had failed to be sufficiently forthcoming about his, er, habit in his online dating profile, calling it a “must-disclose” trait akin to one’s status as a divorcee or single parent.

PARADIGM

There are two very juicy ironies to this story, apparently lost on Bereznak:

  1. She complains that OkCupid set her up with a nerdy guy…on a tech blog. So it appears that geekitude is good enough to pay her bills but not grace her dating life.
  2. It appears that he only mentioned MTG after she noted that her brother was a gamer (either a RPGer or a video game aficionado). I’m guessing his thought process was “oh OK, gaming has now been socially proofed, so I can talk about it without being thought of as weird.”

Their relative sexual and dating marketplace values are of no concern to me. I’ve only seen one inconclusive photo of Bereznak and know nothing of her personal history. I don’t have feelings either way about Finkel’s hobby. I’ve never played MTG and don’t find it interesting, but if he enjoys it and can make money off of it, and it doesn’t harm children or animals, then more power to him.

I don’t expect many women to see MTG as a DHV, but on the other hand I don’t see how it is any different than poker games which are a guys-night staple across America.

JUST ANOTHER SPOILED WOMAN

The ostensible context of the piece is that of the travails of online dating, but that’s just a pretext to slip it by the blog editors (more on them later). The real motivation of the piece is public humiliation and shaming of a man who dares take pride in a hobby judged uncool by a young woman who awesomeness is apparently supposed to be self-evident.

That’s the only explanation I can think of to explain the catty, gossipy, bitchy tone, and the clear expectation she had that the readership would nod in mindless sympathy with her, the brilliant high-class woman who tried to give this geeky guy a chance and doggone it he just couldn’t help but disqualify himself.

Bereznak is nothing special; by that I do not refer to her apperance or writing but to her attitude, which is sadly typical among a significant segment of young women. As I stated in the quote above, there really is no end to the calumny heaped on rejected men who don’t make their 437-point checklists. If you spend enough time at tables adjacent to gaggles of girls, you will hear this repeatedly, the rank dismissal of unworthy men that really belies a deep anxiety about their own worth. You can almost hear the thought balloons emanating from their heads – “Is this really the best I can do? What does that say about ME?”

I don’t understand why public trashing of unworthy men (or men who spurned them) is such an intense passion of young female blogresses; the orgasms of anger and seeking of support from the echo-chamber comments was/is the most pathetic element of whiny Ally McBeal-esque blogs like Lilly, DateMeDC and Diary of Why. My theory is that they were raised to think they would have it all, and commitment from worthy men is the final frontier they haven’t crossed, the one thing that no one can mandate they receive, that no Reviving Ophelia movement or special workplace initiative can give them. I’m loath to scapegoat feminism when Occam’s Razor gives us closer, simpler causes – our increasingly narcissistic, status-obssessed society, and Millenial helicopter parenting that sought to ensure nothing bad would ever happen to them.

In any case, the need to broadcast men’s unworthiness is a weird, vindictive part of the You Go Girl culture – the collective Princess Complex that demands men pedestalize them and grovel to their every whim. It’s not enough for a man to be politely rejected and sent on his way; you have to be humiliated, placed in the virtual stocks so that the world knows the insufferable wrong you’ve inflicted on her by not being good enough for her dreams.

Like the guy on the train, it only has to happen once before a guy replays the movie in his head every time he considers approaching a woman, and oftentimes decides not to even when he might be slated for success.

Bereznak’s dismissive judgment of men with geeky hobbies is no different than Kay Hymowitz, whose prototyped complaint against young men is that they enjoy video games and Star Wars films (I could get behind the latter if we were only talking about Jar Jar Binks).

WHAT OF GIZMODO?

I’m stumped on why Gizmodo let this story run.

The obvious first-order analysis says that it gets page views (800,000 and counting), so it’s good for business. But there is such a thing as bad publicity, if said publicity damages the credibility of the overall product.

The first question is why an intern’s stream-of-consciousness personal dating journal was fodder for publication in the first place. To pretend the story is about online dating is akin to saying the Gettysburg Address is about a cemetery in Pennsylvania. Maybe her editor is a cat lady herself and can’t say no to exposes of unworthy men, or they were looking for an edgier format. Maybe they’re all tired of the socially-awkward geeks they meet at trade shows and conferences and this is some kind of release of pent-up institutional rage.

The next question is why they wanted to alienate a core piece of the technology product market, that being geeky guys who like gadgets, by allowing their intern to publicly insult, for no good reason, an extremely well-regarded man in a massively popular geek hobby.

Whatever the reasons the piece ran, it was really stupid, and calls the wisdom of the entire organization into question. I’m not advocating a boycott or anything but I don’t plan on clicking any Gizmodo links in the forseeable future. There are too many quality content sites on the Internet for me to waste time at a site that thinks a puerile rejection diary is good web journalism.

As long as we’re on the topic of good editing, I have long been bemusedly critical of young-woman-marketed blog The Frisky for some of the same reasons I’ve outlined just above. However, I have to give credit where credit is due – the finest, most complete response (other than here of course) I’ve seen comes from The Frisky’s Amelia McDonell-Parry. Among many good points, she pointedly touches on the fact that her dating commentary is always anonymized to protect those involved, as most are not bad people but just poor matches, whereas Bereznak insists on heavy personal details and the use of full names, seemingly to inflict the maximum amount of vengeful damage to Finkel.

THE MACRO EFFECT

The kind of petty cruelty perpetrated by Bereznak damages the relationship market in systemic ways. McDonnell-Parry notes in a heartwarming display of empathy:

“See, it finally clicked for me that dating can be just as soul-sucking and disheartening for men as it is for women. That encountering women like Alyssa could easily take the wind out of even the most confident man’s sails and make him distrustful that he won’t be judged so harshly by future dates. It made me think that perhaps some of the guys I’ve met through online dating, who frustrated me because they weren’t more clear about their intentions, were wary of taking the lead, and whose interest I questioned, might have had a few Alyssas in their recent dating past and damn if I don’t blame them for being guarded with me as a result.”

Think about it…as a man in the marketplace, you really have two choices (I’m going to guess that MGTOW is not a palatable alternative to most men):

DOOR #1: Trade innumerable emails (or get set up by friends), have the awkward “I didn’t expect her voice to sound like that” introductory phone call, take the initiative to set up a date doing something you hope she might enjoy, go on the actual date (hope she doesn’t flake), talk to her, try to figure out what she’s like and whether you’d be interested in a long-term partnership (and oh by the way pick up the bill with no expectation of her investment), and hope you don’t slip up and say something she’ll sneer at and have to start all over with somebody else. Then do the whole thing all over again two, three, four times until you no longer have to convince her every time you want to go on a date with her. She might hold off on sex saying “I don’t want to rush it because you’re so special,” when you suspect she had a one-night stand with an Axl Rose impersonator a month before she met you.

At best, you’ll suffer a long series of rejections – mostly silent ones, where your online messages go mostly unread and unreturned, your texts and phone calls fall on deaf ears and your invitations for follow-up dates go into the aether never to be accepted, never really knowing what straw broke her back.

At worst, you wind up the victim of a high-tech lynching by an over-privileged young woman with an Internet connection who wouldn’t know a quality man if he sniffed her packets up close. If it’s not a blog post, it’s twitter, facebook or a girls’ night out where they exchange exclamations of “You won’t believe the last date I went on…OMG, as if!!!” while they try to drop their hankies for the next alpha badboy they see making his way to the club bathroom.

DOOR #2: Pursue a pump-and-dump lifestyle. Go hard into PUA game praxis, building a toolbox of seductive skills in accordance with your God-given personality while you emotionally firewall yourself from the betatizing effects of romance. Pluses of this strategy:

Within five minutes, you’ll know if she has rejected you out of hand.

Within thirty minutes you’ll have a pretty good idea if she finds you attractive.

Within two or three meetings (Mystery posits a seven-hour acculturation period) she’ll sleep with you, if she’s going to sleep with you at all.

Rinse and repeat until you get laid, then assemble a sexual Ponzi scheme using your notches as preselection “pivots” to attract even more women.

Rejections are soft, because little has been invested when they occur and because your skills at attracting women make them, in a sense, fungible.

There are consequences. Disease risk, obviously, and eventually you’ll bang one or two crazy girls you’ll have to work around. You’ll even learn to be a little bit paranoid, as you’ll be taught to navigate the most base and disturbing motivations of human psychology.

But at least you won’t get played for a chump. And if you wind up in a blog post by someone like Bereznak, it will be titled “the sexy alluring heartthrob I couldn’t manage to keep” instead of “the creepy geek I dated – I mean, srsly?”

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79 Comments

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79 responses to “Cattiness and the Un-Selected Man

  1. Arch

    Excellent analysis.

    I think its safe to say she won’t have a problem with geeks trying to date her EVER AGAIN. The lack of foresight on her part is laughable.

    And just to help pile on: http://www.quickmeme.com/ALYSSA-BEREZNAK/

    I think its safe to say her bathroom mirror probably keeps her hamster in great shape.

  2. Jack Amok

    Bereznak has no scruples about trashing people in print. She did a hatchet job on her own father for Salon.com earlier in the year that would’ve made Lizzie Borden proud.

    She’s going to send some Veterinarian’s kids through college with all the cat bills she’ll be paying.

  3. too bad this was just a blip on Bb’s blog, i saw it there too. great post, but i couldn’t read all of it b/c what that….ok, i shan’t use the term, did thrashing that guy makes me wish i could get a super soaker filled with cervical cancer to play “douse the princess”. such overt superficialness is sickening, and sadly, all too common.

    not surprisingly, AOTS covered the story today as well. i’d link this on my blog, but i’m pretty sure anyone who comes to my page is already here. lol.

  4. Y

    First rule of being a man is doing your own thing and not giving a fuck what anyone thinks.

    And her article was something called link bait.

  5. Well at least there’s a slim chance that any man will end up marrying this woman. That’s a bright side to this story.

    For most men, I recommend the PUA lifestyle. Quality women are a minority in the US. Unless you are clearly far above average, you’re better off pursuing a pump and dump strategy. If you’re far above average, you still may be better off with a pump and dump strategy. It depends how much you value variety vs. long-term monogamy.

    “Is this really the best I can do? What does that say about ME?”

    Yes it is. It says you’re a 4 and not a 7.

  6. johnnymilfquest

    The man in this story was a card-game uber-geek, but that’s only half the story. He was also a HEDGE-FUND MANAGER.

    No prizes for guessing which piece of information this girl had first. That’s why she went “Ewwwwww!” when she discovered her date’s geeky spare-time proclivities. She had lathered herself into a frenzy of expectation.

    From my own experience, I don’t get strong reactions from the majority of women who are NOT digging my chili.

    I only get that reaction from women who find some things about me attractive at first glance before one or more deal-breakers emerges.

  7. NMH

    Great post; you are a really smart guy.

  8. susanawalsh

    Great post, Badger!

    I don’t expect many women to see MTG as a DHV, but on the other hand I don’t see how it is any different than poker games which are a guys-night staple across America.

    Exactly. Bad boys who make their living playing poker are catnip to the ladies.

    I don’t understand why public trashing of unworthy men (or men who spurned them) is such an intense passion of young female blogresses.

    Amanda Marcotte has made this a feminist issue:

    Nice Guys® believe they are entitled to the women they want because they are “nice”

    http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/separating_out_the_elements_on_the_latest_internet_dating_sex_controversy

    I don’t know if that was Bereznak’s motive, but she played right into it.

    Finally, I’d like to think that Finkel will have reason to celebrate the story in the end. That his inbox will get crammed with messages from cute girls who would be a much better match. And that Alyssa Bereznak will now find it near impossible to get a date at all.

  9. susanawalsh

    P.S. Thanks for the link!

  10. Looking Glass

    TheFrisky piece is great, really. For that website, it’s insanely honest. But, seriously, go read the comments. Now, those are great (it’s a site for women, which makes it all the more hilarious).

    Good post. I think with Door #1, if you attenuate it a bit, mostly by dating inside stable circles (e.g. using Churches), you’ll do a lot better. But Door #2 is going to become the default, it’s sad to say, given the way things are going. I assume it’ll eventually switch back to being more stable, but that’s probably 20 years off, at least. Going to be hell in the mean time.

  11. susanawalsh

    OK, I just read BB’s excellent post and all her links, which led me to a photo of Jon Finkel:

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/find-your-inner/

    Is it just me or does he bear an uncanny resemblance to Roissy?

    He is far more attractive than she is, IMO. Just saying.

  12. Smooth T

    “He is far more attractive than she is, IMO. Just saying.”

    He seems to know it, too – his attitude on Reddit towards the article and his erstwhile date is decidedly nonplussed. – http://redd.it/jz3u7

  13. Brian

    You know, I haven’t known many “Nice Guys” that feel like being nice makes them entitled to women. My experience is that Nice Guys just feel a lot of resentment over seeing the women they find attractive ignore them to chase after Alphas, and then bitch about how they can’t find a man that won’t treat them like crap. Typically, those complaints are made directly to the same Nice Guys that would love to treat them well.

    I feel bad for those guys. But not bad enough to waste effort trying to straighten out the women I date. I have helped a few guys take the red pill.

    I’m a firm believer in the mantra that women get exactly the kind of men they deserve.

  14. Ellie

    She is a jerk and doesn’t deserve a good man. However, your two options with online dating are slightly flawed- I met my husband online and we have been happily married for 6 years (we dated for only 3 months before getting engaged and married 3 months after that—- emails allowed us both to peek below the surface into each other’s goals and dreams in a unique way… but we both were seeking marriage and that was evident by our profiles…. I met him in the first 7 days of posting my profile— he was online for 2 years before though…. it has been a beautiful life.

  15. Bob

    Things like this have screwed me up in the past. I’d be out with a girl, or talking to one at random, and she’d ask what I do with my time (or what I did yesterday, or why I’m not free Saturday until 4, etc.). I’d have to either clam up, saying “nothing,” or lie on the spot, because it was some nerdy hobby or another, and chicks seeing it always respond poorly, and I can’t really claim that my un-nerdy hobbies like boxing, wrestling, and rock climbing take up all seven days of my week. Because, as I’ve unfortunately discovered, even being 6’1″, being in great shape, and being on a good educational track (later career) just doesn’t cut it when you have a D&D game a few hours a week.

    Door #2 is the way to go, and I’m finally having some success that way. I’ll go back to Door #1 one of these days, when I can dictate my own terms.

  16. NMH

    “I met him in the first 7 days of posting my profile— he was online for 2 years before though”

    Very, very telling. If you try to meet and LTR prospect online, the good women get snapped up fast, while the men have to wait and wait…wait for their bit of luck.

    Same thing happened to my present gf. She was on Match one week and I was the first guy she met, and if I had not been lucky enough to met her first, she be in an LTR with the next guy. I had been on Match for three years and had not met anybody worth an LTR.

    This happened to me in my mid 40’s. Proof enough for me that even as you get older, a good woman is scare, while good men are relatively plentiful. It never gets better for men.

  17. detinennui32

    “See, it finally clicked for me that dating can be just as soul-sucking and disheartening for men as it is for women. That encountering women like Alyssa could easily take the wind out of even the most confident man’s sails and make him distrustful that he won’t be judged so harshly by future dates. It made me think that perhaps some of the guys I’ve met through online dating, who frustrated me because they weren’t more clear about their intentions, were wary of taking the lead, and whose interest I questioned, might have had a few Alyssas in their recent dating past and damn if I don’t blame them for being guarded with me as a result.”

    *Facepalm”
    Well, DUH!

  18. Amanda Marcotte is waste of perfectly good carbon atoms which would serve more use in a charcoal briquette.

  19. My Name Is Jim

    NMH, this Alyssa tosses off a profile while drunk (how much effort ya think she spent getting THAT right), and in two weeks meets a millionaire hedge fund manager and world champion poker/card player. Result? She’s not happy with online dating, it’s a Horror Story. Most of us men wish we had your problems, ladies.

  20. detinennui32

    This is the kind of thing that would make me write off all women, were I not married.

  21. Dannyfrom504

    Guys, she’s a 5, at BEST. I’d rather wouldn’t bang her with badger’s mule with Privateman pushing. AOTS aired her story, she’s toast. most of the geek blogs have meme’d the he’ll out of her already.

    Hell hath no furylike a geek scorned over the interwebz, ON a geek site no less.

  22. My Name Is Jim

    I guess what I wanted to say with that post is … Leave out the part about his achievements. She posts an ad with apparently little work, and her worst problem is having to delete hundreds of replies from guys who are interested in her but she doesn’t want, for OMG, two whole weeks, before meeting a good MOTOS who wants to date her. If that happened to you (talking to the guys here), would you feel soul-sucked? I would feel LUCKY, I’d feel validated. Men here talk about having to work for years to get a decent relationship on these sites, they do the approaching, with response rates under ten percent and even most of those soon flake.

    The Frisky draws their experience as equivalent: “It finally clicked for me that dating can be just as soul-sucking and disheartening for men as it is for women.” As far as I can see, the kind of response Alyssa and these other women get, amounts to being a victim of their own (largely unearned) success, for a little while. That’s not the same thing, to call it equivalent is dismissive of what men have to do to get their attention. Yet after they go on a few first dates that don’t work out, the Alyssas are so disheartened they need an echo chamber of friends on blogs like Datemedc to give them more validation and convince them of how special and awesome they really are? I’m in Detinennui’s camp here, just damn glad I’m married.

  23. LS

    Unattractive women overdramatize the rejection not only because it’s how they think attractive women do it (they don’t), but because they’ve had so little experience ever having to reject someone.

  24. susanawalsh

    I’d rather wouldn’t bang her with badger’s mule with Privateman pushing.

    Best laugh of the day.

  25. jlw

    “I’m going to guess that MGTOW is not a palatable alternative to most men…”

    Are you sure? Maybe for the readeship of this blog, but what about the population at large? It may not be palatable, but it’s the only alternative for millions upon millions of men everywhere. And with the advent of high speed internet pr0n, the economy (for males especially), welfare, and gaming, I think it’s getting ever-so-slightly less unpalatable with each passing year.

  26. Anonymous Reader

    Brian
    You know, I haven’t known many “Nice Guys” that feel like being nice makes them entitled to women. My experience is that Nice Guys just feel a lot of resentment over seeing the women they find attractive ignore them to chase after Alphas, and then bitch about how they can’t find a man that won’t treat them like crap. Typically, those complaints are made directly to the same Nice Guys that would love to treat them well.

    Been there, done that, no T-shirt. Quit being “that guy” a really long time ago, before Mystery first published in fact, and it paid off well enough. I still see dumb bints whinging about “no nice guys” to the Nice Guys, so some things change slowly, if at all.

    Does clueless Marcotte like cats? I see them in her future…

  27. Anonymous Reader

    Three more quick points:

    First, I believe that this particular nuclear shootdown is indeed a result of the seriously entitled special snowflake princess syndrome that Grrl power / self esteem movement / reviving Ophelia /etc. has created (although apparently there are no such women anywhere near Susan Wash’s zip code, oddly enough).

    Second, I also believe that in general women, especially younger ones, are prone to loudly disqualify men to the members of their cliques because they want to fully and totally disqualify them right out of the gene pool – not consciously, nope, it’s an evo-bio thing. Preserve the herd’s availability to Alphas by disqualifying Betas as hard as possible.

    Third, in the days of the horrid, evil, patriarchy, older women actively worked to dissuade younger women from such nuclear disqualification, because the older women did not want scads of bitter betas around. Why? Because that was “wasting a good man”. If Penelope Princess didn’t find Clueless Clem to be suitable for her, well, he might just work out well with Gentle Gladys — but if he got smacked away so hard it made his head spin, then he was more likely to just spend his time and money at the pool hall and the whorehouse, and Gladys wound up a spinster. By keeping the hypergamous harpy tendency under control, most women got married to a man that was good enough for them, and most men who wanted to get married did to so a woman that was good enough for them. That gave rise to the civilization that women take for granted today…and blowing up the betas is no way to continue that civilization, by the way.

    To sum up: IMO there is a natural tendency among women to scorn betas so hard that they never try with another woman, in order to preserve their herd as a potential harem for alphas. This is an evo-bio result and need not be conscious. The feminist movement, in conjunction with the whole self esteem movement, girrl pwer and so forth, has enabled special snowlfake princesses to crank up their rejection power to 11, with the results Badger has outlined, and note that both Option 1 and Option 2 don’t do any favors to those women that are not special snowflake princesses, either.

    So if aging feminists like Hymowitz, Walsh, etc. want their hypothetical daughters to actually marry some guy for at least a few years in order to get a grandchild (after which time it’s OK to divorce him, naturally) then the older women better teach the younger ones that there’s more than one way to become single and middle aged. Nuclear rejection may be all good fun at the age of 25, but 10 years later the shoe will be on the other foot.

    Meanwhile, all men – all men – must learn Game, and run tight game no matter how long the LTR, too. Because we never know when a woman – any women – will flake out into special snowflake princess mode.

  28. Anonymous Reader

    Just went and scanned quickmeme for a while. Suddenly have an urge to watch my unexpurgated VHS copy of “Revenge of the Nerds”.

    “Hair pie! Hair pie!”

  29. Blues

    This story really depressed me, honestly its just downright disgusting… then i read how in the aftermath John got asked out by playmate Sara Underwood and i felt a little better.

    http://www.gamehead.com/article/110901/when-gaming-stands-tall

  30. “Best laugh of the day”

    Yeah, I just had to be part that wretched visual image. Thanks Danny.

    And on a lighter note, Johnny Milfquest is still a tosser.

  31. “an over-privileged young woman with an Internet connection who wouldn’t know a quality man if he sniffed her packets up close”

    Best phrase of the week.

  32. Blues

    “The man in this story was a card-game uber-geek, but that’s only half the story. He was also a HEDGE-FUND MANAGER.”

    I just read that some MTG tournaments have 40.000$ prizes, so not only this is a Hedge-Fund Manager but one that has a side entries of 40.000 bucks for his hobbies.

    “Finally, I’d like to think that Finkel will have reason to celebrate the story in the end. That his inbox will get crammed with messages from cute girls who would be a much better match.”

    Even Playboy playmates it seems. Yes, i just had to repeat it.

    You know, I haven’t known many “Nice Guys” that feel like being nice makes them entitled to women. My experience is that Nice Guys just feel a lot of resentment over seeing the women they find attractive ignore them to chase after Alphas, and then bitch about how they can’t find a man that won’t treat them like crap. Typically, those complaints are made directly to the same Nice Guys that would love to treat them well.

    Cosign this.

  33. sean

    This woman underscores how terribly rude young women are today. Let’s get real there have always been women who were looking for a certain type of man, but they had the manners to be discrete and tactful when meeting a man who wasn’t the catch they were after. Side note,I see my brother running into women who will have a relationship with him but won’t marry him b/c he is a teacher and doesn’t make enough money. As a woman, I am at a loss for this behavior. Why date, have sex with and develop a relationship with a man who you know from the get go is not the catch you want to marry? He gets plenty of very pretty girlfriends; he just can’t get a wife, even though he lets them know from the get go that is what he is after.
    Side note, I don’t see the big deal about these games. I had a boyfriend in college who played Dungeons and Dragons (yes I’m old). I just read a book while he played the game on the computer and then we went out after he was finished. I mean every man has to have a hobby or 2.

  34. Mike C

    For the guys…

    Anyone who has been around the Gameosphere for a long time knows the commenter Rollo Tomassi. IMO, he is an even better SMP analyst than Roissy and how guys should navigate it. I got passed along to me that he finally started his own blog recently:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/

  35. Pingback: What Price Game? | pechorin2

  36. Dannyfrom504

    Susan- you’re welcome. I hate posting from my phone. I can’t scroll up and edit.

    PM- you LOVE the fact that you were part of my lil’ yuk-yuk. And on a lighter note, “johnny, sod off laddy.”

  37. Dannyfrom504

    Blues-
    Did Sarah Underwood REALLY ask him out?

    That sonuvabitch. Now I hate him. Lol.

  38. Stephenie Rowling

    Great post and break down Badger, totally agree with this.
    In my culture we are thaugh that a man interested on you deserves a soft let down just based on the fact that he has good taste. Obviously this idea is not present here.
    Just hang in there hopefully some women will see this and realize that their bitchiness is not attractive, hopefully.

  39. whiteboykrispy

    The uglier the girl, the louder the denunciation.

    Good looking girls get so used to rejecting dudes it really is no big deal to them. Some can even be very humble about it. I was seeing a girl awhile back who used to get approached a lot and get tons of fb messages, and it was just like white noise to her, and while we kind of joked about it it wasn’t really a big deal to her.

    As for the uggos, it’s basically a way for them to try and increase their status (if only in their own minds). By shouting to the world they rejected a dude, they’re trying to catapult themselves into that elite group of girls who actually reject a lot of dudes regularly, aka the hot girls. “Look at me! I’m hot too!” haha. It’s like a little nerdy kid who only played football in 8th grade and never started acting real chummy and trying to trade football stories with the senior squad because he was a football player too.

    Nobody buys it, and in both situations the person ends up looking like a total goof to everyone else.

  40. johnnymilfquest

    @Mike C, Rollo Tomassi’s stuff is great. Thanks for the heads up. He’s going on my blogroll.

  41. susanawalsh

    @Anonymous Reader

    I believe that this particular nuclear shootdown is indeed a result of the seriously entitled special snowflake princess syndrome that Grrl power / self esteem movement / reviving Ophelia /etc. has created (although apparently there are no such women anywhere near Susan Wash’s zip code, oddly enough).

    and this:

    So if aging feminists like Hymowitz, Walsh, etc. want their hypothetical daughters to actually marry some guy for at least a few years in order to get a grandchild (after which time it’s OK to divorce him, naturally) then the older women better teach the younger ones that there’s more than one way to become single and middle aged.

    Are you Pro-Male Anti-Feminist Tech? You bear an amazing resemblance to him. You might want to pull your head out of the dark, warm, wet place you find so safe and comfortable to reduce your ignorance. Smells better out here too.

  42. Dannyfrom504

    I really don’t get her whole trip. Honestly, she’s a 5……at best. And if dude ended up landing a date with sarah underwood…….ZOMG. F*CKING jackpot.

  43. Anon

    Her whole trip is that she was more concerned about social proof through publicly rejecting this OMEGA MALE who had the audacity to have a hobby that didn’t revolve around how many pictures you can post onto Facebook while doing it.

    IE – Wine with the girls, shopping & traveling on daddies dime (because an intern on a tech blog sure as shit can’t afford trips to Europe and Jimmy Choos).

    Unfortunately for her social proof is a mans thing. Having a lot of orbiters makes a woman look like either a flake or a slag.

  44. Retrenched

    I wouldn’t lump Susan Walsh in with the Hymowitzes of the world.
    I don’t always agree with Susan, but I have to give her credit for at least listening to the male point of view, and for trying to understand where men are coming from. I don’t see Hymowitz or any of her ilk doing that at all.

  45. Brad

    I would lump in Susan Walsh with the Hymowitzes because of the way she wants to make guys like PMAFT the boogeyman.

  46. lol the meme on that girl is funny as hell.

  47. Blues

    @Dannyfrom504: As for asking him in person i dunno, but she did make the statement on G4TV, here’s a video, jump to 3:00 mark. If i were him i’d sure give it a shot.

    http://www.g4tv.com/videos/55030/the-daily-feed-with-sara-underwood-83111/

  48. Blues-
    DAMN RIGHT you would. sarah +100 over olivia munn.

  49. Pingback: Further Thoughts on the Bereznak-Finkel Kerfuffle | The Badger Hut

  50. jack

    What an ugly c–t.

  51. 1lettuce

    Wow, I’m gone a bit, and we’ve got the Shit storm of 2011 going on here!

    An entitled young woman complaining about a geeky guy on a date is no shocker. Even if there wasn’t a connection, there are polite ways to put a person down. It seems that having social mores is a thing of the past.

    And honestly, so what if he plays magic? He’s also a hedge fund manager! Weren’t her gold-digging spider senses activating? :)

  52. anon1

    I propose that women have to issue an “Amanda Warning” – just like the Miranda Warning. It is issued prior to a date to let a man know that if he falls short of whatever 463 point checklist she has, that everything he does and says will be used against him on the internet.

    Let’s make this an Urban Dictionary term.

  53. anon1, do you mean to say an “Alyssa Warning,” or did Amanda Marcotte reference this as well?

    Clarify and then I will UD the hell out of it.

  54. Whew! Great commentary here. I’ll try to respond to all the salient points in a few comments…

    Jack Amok,

    “Bereznak has no scruples about trashing people in print. She did a hatchet job on her own father for Salon.com earlier in the year that would’ve made Lizzie Borden proud.”

    +1 on the Lizzie Borden reference. She’s clearly a very vindictive person, and if she trashed her father she probably has a huge misandry complex or at least some serious daddy issues.

    Danny,

    “i’d link this on my blog, but i’m pretty sure anyone who comes to my page is already here. lol.”

    You flatter me.

    Y,

    “First rule of being a man is doing your own thing and not giving a fuck what anyone thinks.”

    Yep. Finkel did as much in his follow-up interviews, playing down his investment in the situation by saying he felt his privacy was violated but that he found the whole thing bemusing.

    Kane,

    “For most men, I recommend the PUA lifestyle. Quality women are a minority in the US. Unless you are clearly far above average, you’re better off pursuing a pump and dump strategy. If you’re far above average, you still may be better off with a pump and dump strategy. It depends how much you value variety vs. long-term monogamy.”

    This is the stark truth, and quite honestly it’s pretty scary. As somebody said at Haley’s Halo recently, ordinary women still want extraordinary men, and the sense of entitlement among the college-educated clucksterhood (whose hypergamous matches are in the long tail) is massive. It also means that guys who want relationships are at a big disadvantage whatever their SMV, because they just aren’t that many truly LTR-worthy girls out there.

    johnny milfquest:

    “From my own experience, I don’t get strong reactions from the majority of women who are NOT digging my chili.

    I only get that reaction from women who find some things about me attractive at first glance before one or more deal-breakers emerges.”

    Makes sense, guys who don’t interest women are generally invisible to them, and unless they make sexual advances (which are by definition unwanted) they don’t even merit denigration.

    NMH,

    “Great post; you are a really smart guy.”

    But I’ve hacked my own WordPress database, so I’m #NotRightForAlyssa>

    Susan Walsh,

    I haven’t read the Marcotte piece, but the reason “Nice Guys® believe they are entitled to the women they want because they are “nice””

    …IS BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT WOMEN TOLD US THEY WANTED!

    They told us to watch rom-coms and Cary Grant films (and not the one where he punches Katharine Hepburn) and to “treat her nice” and “be ourselves.”

    As has been said by others, 50% of beta bitterness is realizing that women actively lied to you for your entire life about how to get women to love you. If I had to summarize the truth in one phrase, it would be develop status and don’t make her the center of your life.

    “And that Alyssa Bereznak will now find it near impossible to get a date at all.”

    Someone around the Internet theorized that Berzerknak’s bitchiness is really a screening mechanism, a subconscious manifestation of her conviction she can’t catch a top man and thus will get the next most optimal thing – a beta male she can boss around. Most lesser-alpha and greater-beta types are not going to stand for her act, it’s just tiring to be around such a bitchy person. So she probably will get a date, and maybe a mate – but he’ll be a deferential wimpy type. Her friends will shrug with jealousy when they see him doing the dishes, but will go home with no desire to pluck him away from her. In other words, she’ll get what she deserves.

    I can’t tell you how to operate your blog, but Bereznak is probably typical of your audience – college-educated women of above average intelligence who were fed the Reviving Ophelia shtick, and as a result are clueless about how men work, romantically self-absorbed and prone to playing the victim. That’s the niche you’ve carved out in the blogosphere, and I don’t envy your calling, but somebody has to straighten these girls out before they become the next Liz Jones.

  55. Ellie,

    “She is a jerk and doesn’t deserve a good man. However, your two options with online dating are slightly flawed- I met my husband online and we have been happily married for 6 years -snip- I met him in the first 7 days of posting my profile— he was online for 2 years before though…. it has been a beautiful life.”

    I’m glad you found success, but your example really proves my point. Your man was online for two years before he landed you – how many rejections do you think he endured? All the unresponded messages, women responding just for kicks, girls who never replied to his reply to her reply, girls who gave him a number and said “call me” and then never picked up the phone or return his voicemail (this last one has happened to me three times in the last month), or flaked on the date, or just went on the date to get a free meal? Dozens upon dozens of these, probably hundreds.

    Danny,

    “I’d rather wouldn’t bang her with badger’s mule with Privateman pushing.”

    For both the imagery and the botched grammar, this post wins the thread. Have you been drinking again?

    “Hell hath no furylike a geek scorned over the interwebz, ON a geek site no less.”

    Finkel hasn’t been pushing this at all. It’s known that Gawker nerdbaits, but they’ve probably even gone too far on this one.

    Bob,

    “I’d be out with a girl, or talking to one at random, and she’d ask what I do with my time (or what I did yesterday, or why I’m not free Saturday until 4, etc.). I’d have to either clam up, saying “nothing,” or lie on the spot, because it was some nerdy hobby or another, and chicks seeing it always respond poorly.”

    The same thing happens in the college scene, where guys majoring in science and engineering learn to avoid or lie about their education because if they admit CS or physics as a major, even if their game is tight to that point, the girls will simply drop the enthusiasm and drift away.
    Women are always complaining that guys are shallow because they want women who look good. I don’t think they have any place to talk.

    “Door #2 is the way to go, and I’m finally having some success that way. I’ll go back to Door #1 one of these days, when I can dictate my own terms.”

    I like the way you put that – no man should play the commitment game unless he has the ability to walk (i.e. get someone else). If you don’t, you’re simply entering a suicide pact. I wish I didn’t have to be so cynical, but preselection is so strong you have to find ways to leverage it against the unrestrained hypergamy and female restlessness of today.

    Detinennui,

    You re-quote the Frisky paragraph, which just goes to show that for all the talk of women being the empathetic sex, young women as a whole have very little empathy or even understanding for men’s lives. Some of that can be blamed straight on youth, but it’s clear they’ve escehwed teaching it in favor of you go girl.

    “This is the kind of thing that would make me write off all women, were I not married.”

    You are not the only one. I would love to know (not that it’s possible) how many MGTOWs and misogynists Bereznak’s behavior has created.

    My Name Is Jim’s comment is epic.

  56. detinennui32

    @ Badger: “I would love to know (not that it’s possible) how many MGTOWs and misogynists Bereznak’s behavior has created.”

    And it’s a crying shame that there is even such a thing as MGTOW. I’ve read many of these men’s writings. Many of them have concluded they have no other realistic or efficient options.

  57. jlw,

    The fact is that most men desire sex and some kind of personal contact with the women – the number of guys who could pyschologically pull off casual sex or a harem without having any kind of personal relationship with any of them is pretty small. The number of guys who want neither sex nor personal contact with women is VERY small, and many of them got that way being victims of the system. I have no beef with the MGTOW life choice, but it’s just not a rewarding life for most men.

    Pechorin, thanks, but I have to give Danny the nod.

    Sean,

    “This woman underscores how terribly rude young women are today.”

    Yeah. They are drunk with the power of being at their sexual peak, and social media has only enhanced their ability to spew nonsense into the collective ether.

    “Side note, I don’t see the big deal about these games”

    There’s been this weird trend in the past generation that has normalized relationships as totally dedicated to the woman. The man has to spend all of his time either working, at home with her, taking care of kids or housework. If he wants to do anything by himself he’s insensitive and neglectful. A lot of guys put up with it to get sex, but I’m done with that – no Norwegian pie is worth being reduced to somebody’s on-call personal assistant. One of the less-tolerable aspects of my last LTR is that whenever I was with her, she demanded I be paying attention to her, or doing what she wanted to do (watching her shows, etc). It got to the point I begged off hanging out with her because it was the only way I could do the things I wanted to do. If she could have read a book while I practiced my guitar in the next room, it wouldn’t have been a problem, but she couldn’t abide that.

    Mike C, thanks for the Rollo Tomassi link, he’ll be going on my blogroll.

    whiteboykrispy speaks the truth:

    “The uglier the girl, the louder the denunciation.”

    Yep. It’s a way for her to advertise that somebody was interested in her.

    LOL – Sara Underwood said she’d go on a date with Finkel, but the funniest part was her calling Bereznak a “desperate bachelorette.”

  58. Retrenched

    @ Badger

    “I haven’t read the Marcotte piece, but the reason “Nice Guys® believe they are entitled to the women they want because they are “nice””

    …IS BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT WOMEN TOLD US THEY WANTED!”

    Yeah. A guy follows the instructions every woman he’s ever known has given him since puberty… only to get LJBFed at best, or to have ridicule and invective thrown at him (as in the Marcotte example mentioned above). Meanwhile, he sees other guys break all the “nice guy” rules he was taught and get rewarded greatly by the same women who told him to “be nice, be yourself”.

    “As has been said by others, 50% of beta bitterness is realizing that women actively lied to you for your entire life about how to get women to love you.”

    The red pill is a very bitter pill to swallow. It makes a lot of guys sick to their stomachs for a while. But once they do there’s no going back.

  59. Summary of the awesome that happened this week:

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  61. “I haven’t read the Marcotte piece, but the reason “Nice Guys® believe they are entitled to the women they want because they are “nice”” …IS BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT WOMEN TOLD US THEY WANTED!”

    Be careful of agreeing with Marcotte here, because she’s gonna twist your words and use it to stab you in the face.

    I never, ever, in my most awful supplicating beta-teenager days, ever felt *entitled* to a particular woman, in the sense that I expected them to. I never even felt *entitled* to women in general, in the sense that my dream woman would fall into my lap, and I wouldn’t have to lift a finger. (The ones that did fall into my lap were nice but not “hot” by any degree.) I damn well knew that i had to approach, I just wasn’t sure how. The strongest words I could ever use here would be “idealistically hopeful”. Entitled does not come anywhere near that.

    I *do*, however, feel entitled to having accurate information in order to fair chance. That’s the big disconnect in men’s lives. Equality of opportunity, not outcome.

  62. Ugh. Lemme finish that massacred sentence:

    “I never, ever, in my most awful supplicating beta-teenager days, ever felt *entitled* to a particular woman, in the sense that I expected that I had a right to date, or even had a chance, woman I wanted, even against her own wishes. That’s ridiculous. I had a scarcity mindset — “I’d be SO lucky to date you!” and that’s the opposite of entitlement!”

  63. Ceer

    You see… to a woman’s head hamster, a man’s polite interest…when he asks politely for a date, this is entitlement.

    To a man, when a woman treats a man in a rude, unprofessional, and uncivilized manner, and then shouts this publicly, while tacitly accusing him of misconduct…this is entitlement.

    These are two different concepts.

  64. angela

    Geeze. Men are so dramatic. Man up and just get over it if she’s a snatch when you approach her. It’s just as hard for girls. If you are a 6, with an awesome job, education and personality, you don’t even get a second look, because no one says “hey, look at the brains on that one.” If you aren’t at least an 8, you have no chance of even being considered talked to. Unless you just happen to run in the same circles of friends and by chance the guy ‘grows’ to like who you are. I consider myself (and have been told) a 7 and I’ve been told by someone I fell in love with “Ya, you aren’t anything special looks-wise, but you are growing on me” ..Gee, thanks??

    So give me a break about your ‘whoa is me, girls don’t consider the geeks” speech. You all are just as fucking mean and picky, it’s just in the looks department, not the profession/interests department that we are all so turned off by.

    The public humiliation is unnesecssary, but i’ve overheard douche bags in bars say (about me) “wow, how dare she think she could even APPROACH me” – meaning, they were way too good looking for me.

    ["A man rejected me, so I will stereotype men!" You really showed us.]

  65. Hope

    My coworker married a former Magic the Gathering world champion who also has his own Wikipedia page (which he did not write). She told me about it not unproudly. Which is partly why we’re pretty good friends now.

    My husband and I briefly played WoW with the guy, too.

  66. SayWhaat

    ["A man rejected me, so I will stereotype men!" You really showed us.]

    Angela is only trying to say that that the role of rejector doesn’t solely belong to the female sex. What she’s said is no different from the other things I’ve heard men say about women here and elsewhere in the manosphere.

    Both sexes get rejected. The manosphere would do well to acknowledge that it happens to average (and above-average) women, and just as cruelly.

  67. Garm

    “I just read that some MTG tournaments have 40.000$ prizes, so not only this is a Hedge-Fund Manager but one that has a side entries of 40.000 bucks for his hobbies.”

    Finkels Magic-winnings are over a million, and his poker winnings many times that. I doubt she knew.

  68. artvandelay

    Men, screen your chicks if they have a blog or many twitter followers.

  69. Uncalledfor

    SayWhaat: Both sexes get rejected. The manosphere would do well to acknowledge that it happens to average (and above-average) women, and just as cruelly.

    Are you also saying that, in addition to “just as cruelly”, rejection happens to women just as often as to men? If so then, sorry, I can’t concur. Rejection happens to more men, more often, than to women; the two are not comparable, and you would do well to acknowledge that yourself, I think.

  70. Anonymous Reader

    MsSusan Walsh
    Are you Pro-Male Anti-Feminist Tech? You bear an amazing resemblance to him. You might want to pull your head out of the dark, warm, wet place you find so safe and comfortable to reduce your ignorance. Smells better out here too.

    Well, it’s time to deal with this particular bolus. So what’s your problem? Let’s break this down and see.

    You don’t like me calling you out for your comments about entitled women? Either you are denying that entitled women exist at all, a huge irony on this particular thread, or you don’t like the fact that I disagree with your claim to be able to spot entitled women on sight (“I don’t see any entitled women in my nice neighborhood”). I find that latter claim to be arrogant, and stupid. The man I know whose wife drove them into Chapter 7 bankruptcy with her spending habits knew very well how to wear the mask. To see him, his spendaholic wife and their child in public would have been to see a man chatting with his wife, and laughing with his child. How do I know this? Because I saw them in public during the time in question. But in private, he was carrying a lot of anger, remorse over having married her in the first place, and possibly some degree of depression. How do I know this? Because he was my friend and I spent time with him away from his wife, where he could talk. So you would look at them, and say how happy they were. But I knew that his wife felt entitled to spend as money as it took to make her haaa-py, even if that exceeded his paycheck over and over again.

    You have made a claim. I say that claim is false. I furthermore say that your claim flies in the faces of men’s experience, and denies that experience.

    Now, in brief, I’ll break it down into two parts:
    Ms Susan Walsh, are you now denying that entitled women exist, or not? Just state your position right here, so everyone can see it, in plain English.

    Ms Susan Walsh, you have previously claimed that you can determine if a woman is entitled merely by looking at her. (Of course, that assumes the existence of entitled women…are you sure you wish to admit that? That is a testable hypothesis. We can test it with an image of Jan Bereznak, who for these purposes is clearly an entitled woman. Please view an image of this young woman, and tell us all exactly how you determine whether she is an entitled woman or not. Is it her hair? Her eyes? Her scarf? Her smile? I’m sure that you can explain to us all exactly how you determine, merely by looking, if a woman is entitled or not.

    As for the rest of your nonsense, it is merely evidence to me that you are too childish and arrogant to actually discuss a serious topic like an adult. The only reason I’ve bothered to reply to you on this thread is because Badger seems to have some regard for you. Based on what you’ve said to me, I cannot see any reason for his regard.

    Now, then, Ms Susan Walsh, can you actually respond to the points above with something more than insults from a mid-school locker room? Can you climb down from your pedestal and engage this mere male human with logic and reason?

    Or are you just too entitled to be bothered to defend your own claims?

  71. jesse

    If it hasn’t been mentioned, the most ironic aspect of this story is that hedge fund manager John Finkel will probably now get inundated with date offers from women, some of them very alpha females (regardless of their motivations—-there are some very cute nerdy females.)

    This vindictive jezebel just created a much more valuable male commodity by posting her petty rant.

    [Roosh called Bereznak the most effective pivot in history.]

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