The #1 Game Question for Guys

When a guy tells me he’s having trouble with his game, I want to know one thing.

How many new women have you talked to this week?

I don’t mean numbers you got, kiss-closes, or extended philosophical waxings. I don’t mean how many women are in your vicinity when you go to the farmer’s market or wine tasting. I just want to know how many women you’ve talked to. It could be at the local watering hole, in the grocery line, at the library, leaving a movie theater. What is your tolerance for approaching?

It’s a question that shows a man’s real stones. It takes some courage and initiative to decide to learn game, but it takes another kind of down-to-earth guts to actually put it into practice.

It’s important that the metric is this week. That reflects current, day-to-day performance. If I hear he was approaching like gangbusters two weeks ago but hasn’t really been on the horse lately because he’s working a lot or whatever, he’s allowing his growth plan to slip. Don’t procrastinate by trying to perfect your game first; you can’t develop your game without approaching. Halfway-decent game executed now with a slew of approaches will yield better results than holding back until you think you’ve got it all perfect. Experience shows that you never really think you are ready anyway, so get used to going into situations feeling a bit underprepared (odds are you actually aren’t).

In his book, Mystery advocates an aspiring PUA go out several times a week meeting several women each night, adding up to something like 2,000 (!) approaches in a year. I think that’s a bit much, but on the other hand if that’s what it takes to blunt approach anxiety and build a full conversational toolbox, so be it.

Don’t get me wrong. There’s more to life than chatting up girls. But if a guy really wants to improve his results (seeking an LTR or otherwise), he should put some real effort into it, and there’s no way to avoid the fact that you have to approach women. You are not simply going to emanate a halo that brings girls to your side. If you aren’t talking to new women, all the game in the world isn’t going to do jack shit. It’s like having a factory with no raw materials coming in the door.

So get started.

Suggested Reading: Kane’s The First Secret To Meeting Women

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154 Comments

Filed under beta guide, dating and field game

154 responses to “The #1 Game Question for Guys

  1. 108spirits

    So…. how many dates have you gone on this past few weeks, Badger? :p

    My mentor once said to me when I was learning Game: simply ask one different girl out every week. Sounds way easy right, compared to what Mystery was telling guys? Do that consistently for a year and you’ve asked out 50 girls (excluding a couple of weeks around Christmas and NY). That’s more than what 99.9999999% of guys do in a lifetime. More than enough practice to get you somewhere further in your Game.

  2. Y

    I try to speak to one new woman every day. In the book-store at the supermarket, on the bus, in a bar etc.

    I think that’s important.

    To be opportunistic.

  3. To paraphrase Roosh, a man who isn’t getting rejected isn’t pushing his limits.

    Men don’t approach because they’re afraid of rejection, but if you never get rejected, you’re not pushing yourself to improve.

  4. Kathy

    Mystery is a fool. Any guy who wears black nail polish is.. ahem, a damn turnoff amongst other things. :P

    Marky Mark is spot on here.

    http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/2011/07/mystery-exposed.html
    The conversation is indeed vapid on both sides, as Mark states.
    I would not even bother reading a book written by such a knob.
    No mystery there. ;)
    Of course if one is into guys with black nailpolish wearing poncy hats, then, go for it!
    I’ll say it again, like attracts like.

  5. Yeah, ugly types there. But this is a good post about approaching nevertheless; thanks Badger.

  6. Anonymous Reader

    This is a good posting. This question also applies to men in LTR’s, married or otherwise. If nothing else, it is a way to display higher value. But there’s more – a man who does a little honing of his Game by conversation with women will know, consciously and unconsciously, that he can attract women. That can eliminate the fear factor / oneitis that develops in many men during LTR’s – “she’s all I can get, so I must do whatever it takes to keep her from leaving”.

    Now, I’d say that a man in an LTR doesn’t need to do nearly as many approaches as a single man. But it takes little effort to chat up the barrista in a coffee joint, to banter gently with a bank teller, etc. and it does have the same beneficial effect on confidence.

  7. Can’t win the game if you don’t play. I approached three different sets last night at a coffee shop. Blown out completely three times, but fuck it. Felt good to approach.

  8. johnnymilfquest

    Well, I’m going to a meet-up group Tommorow night, so there will definitely be new women there that I can engage in conversation.

  9. It is often better to assert than not; I had to make the first moves with a sweet guy years ago, and it was great.

  10. Carl Sagan

    just the kick in the pants I need

    thanks

  11. Looking Glass

    If you have to spend a lot of time in or around medical establishments, Game the nurses. As I’ve had to see a specialist several times lately, it’s quite nice when the nurses track you down to say hi. :) ( That and service is sooooo much better. :) )

  12. I talk to pretty much everyone who is standing or sitting close to me. It’s in my nature.

    For the less socially adept, I recommend this blog/website:

    http://www.succeedsocially.com/

    It’s also on my blogroll.

  13. Kathy

    Not criticizing the post Jen . Just making the point that it is unwise to use knobs like mystery as some sort of expert on game. The post may have been good but mystery is not someone that should be referenced.He has no credibility imo. That vid is cringeworthy stuff. And we know the types of women that this court jester will attract. Just look at how he is dressed. Shakes head. He could have written a truck load of books for all I care. Fact is whenever that Guy’s name is mentioned this faggy pic of him pops into my head……

  14. “I talk to pretty much everyone who is standing or sitting close to me. It’s in my nature.”

    bingo. if you have a vagina and a cute face, i’m chatting you up and flirting. cashiers, waitress’s, EVERY women. young…..old….doesn’t matter. if she’s cool, she’s cool. if she isn’t….whatev’s. my ex once told me, “would you mind not being such a cad in front of me.” i’m just sooo used to doing it, that i don’t even realize i’m doing it.

    very good post hermano. spot on.

  15. I talk to pretty much everyone who is standing or sitting close to me. It’s in my nature.

    When I was single, I was very selective in who I talked to. I didn’t want to waste effort on girl’s who weren’t interested so I only approached girls who had sent signals and were sufficiently attractive.

  16. Kathy

    “I talk to pretty much everyone who is standing or sitting close to me. It’s in my nature”
    Same for me privateman..
    I am genuinely interested in people.
    I always get positive responses too.
    Life’s too short to be taciturn and surly. ;)

  17. AnonymousDog

    Badger, what would you (or any commenters) suggest for a guy who, in the normal course of things, seldom does run into “new” women to approach?

  18. Anonymous Reader

    AnonymousDog, I’m sure not Badger but my suggestion would be to cultivate improving your “small talk” (not the object-oriented programming language, either). Chat them up about nothing in particular, with the intent of creating a favorable view of you. Practice maintaining some frame during the small-talk conversation — cocky/funny, jovial, calm/serene/above-the-strife, or some other that you wish to work on.

    This should have at least a couple of good effects: first, as Badger suggests, it helps overcome shyness and improves your ability to banter yet keep the conversation light. Second, it should in time enable you to display higher value – keeping your cool at the normal annoyances of life, or making light of them in a funny way, etc. That is useful because third, the women you know are sure to know women that you don’t know. A young married office mate might know an unmarried office mate, for example.

    That’s my suggestion; since you can’t practice approaches (cold or warm), practice witty banter. Try to keep it on the light side, always, since you do see the same people every day you don’t want to become someone they avoid. If a conversation is taking a wrong turn, you should always be able to go back to work, or find some other reason to gently break the conversation.

  19. “When I was single, I was very selective in who I talked to. I didn’t want to waste effort on girl’s who weren’t interested so I only approached girls who had sent signals and were sufficiently attractive.”

    Either approach can work IMHO. You can be a gregarious, affable extrovert, or a man of few words who makes his conversations count.

  20. “Badger, what would you (or any commenters) suggest for a guy who, in the normal course of things, seldom does run into “new” women to approach?”

    I would consider the following:

    1. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? If it depletes your batteries to talk to people, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to try to chat up everybody – instead focus on strong frame in a few key conversations, cf Kane’s comment above.

    2. Really mine what’s around:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/opportunity-is-everywhere/

    3. Consider changing the “normal course of things.” Is there a way you can run into new women with changes to your routine or schedule? I don’t advise re-arranging your life to meet chicks per se, but the regular trip to the library or walk in the park can do wonders for your target-rich environment.

  21. 1lettuce

    Approaching is tough, but so is life. I generally chat up people and keep an eye for IOIs, and act when I feel the moments right. Sometimes you fail, but other times you succeed

    Much better than playing ‘what-ifs’.

  22. i like Yohami’s frame of “game everyone”. if you do, you’ll get to a point where you’re not running game, you’re just being you. and that’s where you qualify/disqualify a woman (yeah guys, you can easily disqaulify a woman).

    women aren’t the entre of my life…..they’re the side dish.

  23. Lathe of Heaven

    Badger, I think your thoughtfulness is called for to address the deeper sources of approach anxiety, and see what can be done about it.

    Think: why is approach such a hard job? There’s a lot of agreement that the constantly doing the approach is hard/painful, but the question of why this should be the case is left largely unspoken. Men mention the obvious, that it’s an unpleasant shot to one’s ego, and maybe just generally an icky situation to be rejected; this may prompt a discussion about how women could/should be kinder & gentler about it, but to me that’s really a distraction that won’t help the main problem.

    So what’s the main problem, for the largest number of men? I think it’s not the risk that that the man will feel insulted or diminished, but that he’ll feel he’s hurt or injured the woman; and will likely do so again the next time he tries an approach. For decent, moral men — which I believe is most men — fear against doing harm is a much stronger motivator than fear against getting hurt.

    Think. With anyone you come in contact with, you have some understanding before that contact of what your relationship is to that person. The most basic dimension of that understanding is, Am I welcome here? What is my expectation of the other person’s feelings and reaction, given our pre-contact relationship? Is what I’m about to do likely to hurt this person or make them feel bad?

    What, then, is a man’s general expectation when approaching a woman he doesn’t know, in some public place? If he’s not overtly handsome, rich or charming then IME the answer is that, more than likely, he’s not welcome and his approach will cause her discomfort. The unfortunate truth is that most women do not want most of the approaches they receive, and would most often really rather the man hadn’t done that. Does anyone disagree with this statement, as a description of American reality?

    So, what do you and your brain trust recommend? for the non-rich, non-handsome man who has every reason to believe that his approach is something women generally don’t want? with perhaps some few happy exceptions. How should he cope with the feeling that most of the time (say with >50% expectation) he’s hurting the woman, at least a little bit, by coming out of the background and entering her space? (Note: advice like “get a better approach” may be practical but it is not an answer to this question.) One route is to become a misogynist, who doesn’t care about hurting women; another route is to greatly hang back and wait for situations where it’s clear an approach will be welcome. I don’t think either of those will lead to a good life, but I don’t have much else to suggest. Do you understand this question? What do you think?

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  26. I’d recommend trying SOMEWHERE new, perhaps, AnonDog.

  27. Lathe of Heaven

    Moderation?

  28. stidesheaven72baz

    @Lathe of Heaven
    I think it boils down to what your state is, last Friday for instance I was downtown, I was really tired after a poor night’s sleep, but I was dressed quite well, the sun was shining and there were plenty of attractive women around, so I hit up an espresso, and for the rest of the evening, I chatted to and bantered with several women I encountered in shops, coffee bars, etc that evening – I can honestly say not one of them seemed in any uncomfortable with it, each of them responding well to my sharing a few moments with them

  29. detinennui32

    Lathe:

    In my opinion you get a B for effort but a D for your reasoning and conclusion.

    I agree with you only that most approaches are unwanted. Of course they are. But that’s really not the issue. I disagree with your assessment that for men, approach is difficult because you might hurt, offend or insult a woman. No, the difficulty in my opinion begins and ends with the very real probability that in most instances you will be rejected or declined.

    I’m married now but in my single days I did plenty of dating, approaching and asking. The anxiety really is about rejection — you know rejection will probably happen but you have to sack up and do it anyway.

    Honestly, when approaching, I really didn’t care one bit about her discomfort, her feelings, or whether she wanted to be approached or talked to. Nor should I. I am not responsible for her feelings or comfort. She is. If she doesn’t want to be approached, she’ll say so. If she’s not interested, the IODs will be flying. She’s uncomfortable? At first, I don’t give a shit. If she’s uncomfortable, that will become apparent soon enough.

    I talk to women and men all the time in my work and travels. I admit that though I am married, I flirt. I like to flirt. Some women respond to it. Fine. Some do not. Others might get offended. Candidly, their hurt, offense or discomfort is THEIR problem, not mine.

    I’ve said here and elsewhere that men should be approaching women and just talking to them far more often than we do. We should make them reject us. Make them uncomfortable. Make them say no. Women wanted dating equality. This is it. Women, much as I love and want them, will have to share in a little discomfort in the hustle and bustle of the current combat dating scene. We should make our intentions and desires known. If she does not want them or it makes her uncomfortable or she doesn’t like it or she’s just not that into me, then it’s HER responsibility to say so.

    I am a married man. I want sex frequently. I mention I want it. I escalate through the day. It culminates in me starting to disrobe and then disrobing my wife. I am doing what I want, seeking what I want and moving to what I want. If Mrs. detinennui doesn’t want that, or is uncomfortable, or tired, or hungry, or mad, or just doesn’t want to get it on, then it’s HER responsibility to say so. It’s not mine.

  30. organicist

    In a way, being lucky is a bad thing. If you consistently bump into a girl that’s into you, on accident, over a long period of time, you will have zero skills when your luck runs out. And yes, this does happen, quite often in fact.

  31. SayWhaat

    If she does not want them or it makes her uncomfortable or she doesn’t like it or she’s just not that into me, then it’s HER responsibility to say so.

    And if she says so, and the guy doesn’t back off, what then? You gonna keep invading her personal space when she’s clearly already told you she’s not interested?

  32. detinennui32

    sayWhaat:

    You’re arguing for the sake of argument. It’s disingenuous.

    We’re talking about approaches, not standing over women invading their space. We’re talking about just talking to women.

    No one here, certainly not me, is advocating that women be accosted or assaulted.

    So if she declines an approach and says she’s not interested or starts throwing out IODs, then of course he is supposed to back off. If a man is supposed to learn what to do with IOIs, he will be far more practiced in what to do with rejections.

  33. Anonymous Reader

    Obvious piece of reality:
    If she does not want them or it makes her uncomfortable or she doesn’t like it or she’s just not that into me, then it’s HER responsibility to say so.

    SayWhaat
    And if she says so, and the guy doesn’t back off, what then? You gonna keep invading her personal space when she’s clearly already told you she’s not interested?

    Obviously such a man is not the True Alpha you clearly desire. Obviously, he should immediately be taken out and executed in a public manner, as an example to the rest of us. Or perhaps, if you are feeling merciful up there on that pedestal, you’d be content to have him blinded and castrated, in order that he’d never offend Woman ever again by daring to look at one without explicit permission and of course, he’d never have an opportunity to spread his clearly inferior genes.

  34. OTC

    Of course, guys have to figure out what really are IOD’s and what’s “try harder”, and barring ESP it’s difficult. The words “I have a boyfriend” may or may not be one, depending on tone, body language and the phase of the moon.

    If a guy seems too persistent, true, he could be a total shit. But, it’s also possible he’s figured out from experience that things that appear to be No on the surface really weren’t No, and is trying to get to a clearer No. That means in his past, someone said No in the exact way that you are saying No now, but he found out that didn’t really mean No. He was trained, by women, to interpret your No as “keep trying”.

    AR: SayWhaat is one of the good ones. I have no doubt she’s had her share of dbags up in her face. We should agree that men really do get nuclear rejections, or the women take offense at being even asked, likening an unwanted approach to assault. On the flip side, women REALLY DO get persistent guys that won’t get out when they are clear about it, as above.

  35. Lathe of Heaven

    @detinennui32:

    And I give you a B for self-centeredness with a D for empathy. Can we call it even?

    Sorry if it brings down your disapproval, but the fact is that I don’t like hurting people, even accidentally. Yes, a woman can wave off an approach with an IOD, as explicitly as necessary, and terminate the encounter; but by then the damage has, basically, already been done. The key here is women seeing most approaches as not just unwanted, but painful, even assaultive. Unlike you, apparently, I do feel bad for causing people pain and don’t believe that it’s entirely in the receiver’s court to ward it off. Do you step on people’s feet, if it’s convenient for you, until they tell you to stop? Do you put out your cigarettes in people’s forearms, if those happen to be closer than the ashtray, until they tell you not to?

    Honestly, when approaching, I really didn’t care one bit about her discomfort, her feelings, or whether she wanted to be approached or talked to.

    Are you aware that having this attitude is exactly part of the definition of being a psychopath?

  36. SayWhaat

    AR–

    Ah, OTC beat me to it.

    I don’t go for Alphas. Though I do have a penchant for Sigmas, lol.

    Lathe–

    The key here is women seeing most approaches as not just unwanted, but painful, even assaultive. Unlike you, apparently, I do feel bad for causing people pain and don’t believe that it’s entirely in the receiver’s court to ward it off.

    Pain begets pain. Approach a woman in a way that isn’t invasive, but friendly, and you’ll get better results (or at the very least, polite conversation).

  37. SayWhaat

    @ deti:

    Perhaps it’s disingenuous, but clearly clarification is needed for readers such as Lathe.

  38. “I don’t go for Alphas. Though I do have a penchant for Sigmas, lol.”

    I’m done asking for your number, don’t think you can bait me into it.

  39. I think Lathe has a very good point, that the fear of bothering someone can be a serious factor in approach anxiety. Many of us don’t want to impose on people. The answer to that is to read the signs that many women want to be approached and it won’t be a bother to them.

    Another weird thing about approaching: sometimes I have anxiety that she’ll actually want to talk to me, and then I’ll be roped into a small-talk conversation for God knows how many minutes. There are times when I kind of hope the approach bombs out so I can go back to whatever I was doing. True story.

  40. Lathe of Heaven

    SayWhaat: “Approach a woman in a way that isn’t invasive, but friendly, and you’ll get better results”

    There’s a fancy name for this kind of logical fallacy, though it escapes me for the moment; the essence is, insisting that something that doesn’t exist is actually real just because you can put a name to it.

    You’ve clearly never been a man, but perhaps if you get to know some and talk with them, you’ll learn that there is no such thing as an approach that is universally received as non-invasive. Besides that, if you go back and read for comprehension you will see I said above, that “get a better approach” is _not_ an answer to the original question. Further, while I appreciate the darling effort, I personally am not on the make and so not looking for advice on how to get better results; I’m trying to a address a very general philosophical point, of the kind I imagined Badger would be interested in (though I may be mistaken there).

    Sorry to have to spell this all out so explicitly, but some readers like SayWhaat apparently need the extra help.

  41. SayWhaat

    @ Lathe,

    Good luck getting laid, bro.

  42. SayWhaat

    I’m done asking for your number, don’t think you can bait me into it.

    I actually laughed out loud at my computer at this one. :P

  43. SayWhaat,

    I’m sending you a Kleenex to wipe the coffee off your screen.

  44. SayWhaat

    It was water, but thanks. :P

  45. Badger-
    “Another weird thing about approaching: sometimes I have anxiety that she’ll actually want to talk to me, and then I’ll be roped into a small-talk conversation for God knows how many minutes. There are times when I kind of hope the approach bombs out so I can go back to whatever I was doing. True story.”

    and this is precisely why talking with EVERYONE you come in contact with is key. in some instances the conversation not “flowing” is the clearest sign of incompatibility. no need to force it. the girl from my local that didn’t give me her number is a clear example.

    i didn’t initiate the conversation, but we ended up talking….and it clicked.

    if she’s receptive to your approach, then you need to keep an eye out for IOI’s. i’ve NEVER had a case where a women giving me IOI’s where i escalate lightly and she’s NOT receptive to them. get the number, tell her you’ll talk to her soon, and make any excuse to move on.

  46. Bb

    “Another weird thing about approaching: sometimes I have anxiety that she’ll actually want to talk to me, and then I’ll be roped into a small-talk conversation for God knows how many minutes. There are times when I kind of hope the approach bombs out so I can go back to whatever I was doing. True story.”

    That’s the introvert talking, yes? I know that type of guy well. ;) Perhaps a good solution to that is the charming/funny comment in passing, so you don’t get stuck in a convo.

  47. detinennui32

    I don’t think that intentionally stepping on people’s feet or putting out cigarettes on others’ forearms is in any way comparable to trying to strike up a conversation with someone. Lathe, do you realize how silly that sounds?

    If a woman is so deathly sensitive that she is plunged into paroxysms of discomfort merely from a man attempting to talk with her, I submit that I am not the one with the problem. If one is going to live in today’s society, then one will have to accept some discomfort.

  48. detinennui32

    I went back and read the replies above again. I can accept that some women might be offended by an approach. OK. But offensive things happen every day in modern society. It’s part of life.

    What I cannot accept is that a man trying to strike up a conversation with a woman is tantamount to a criminal offense. It is not. This is the kind of thinking that leads to speech codes on university campuses and “hate crime” legislation.

    If I had taken the approach Lathe advocates, I’d never have gone on a date in my life.

  49. detinennui32

    Excess concern for a woman’s feelings or sensitivities absolves the woman of any responsibiliity for an encounter. It also leads a man to hesitation when he should act boldly, leads him to be taciturn when he should speak, leads him to be timid when he should stand firm.

    All that says BETA to a woman, and where does that lead? More frustration, more loneliness, more bitterness. Aren’t we trying to avoid that?

  50. 108spirits

    “Another weird thing about approaching: sometimes I have anxiety that she’ll actually want to talk to me, and then I’ll be roped into a small-talk conversation for God knows how many minutes. There are times when I kind of hope the approach bombs out so I can go back to whatever I was doing. True story.”

    Always happens when you realise the chick you just opened is neither as attractive or cool as you thought. “Good from afar but far from good”.

  51. 108spirits

    I’ve done a bazillion cold approaches but only managed to really piss off a princess once. I recommend you guys should do it more often. Irritate a princess today, or maybe three. Do it for the Brotherhood.

  52. Lathe of Heaven

    If I had taken the approach Lathe advocates, I’d never have gone on a date in my life.

    Hey, don’t give me too much credit. I’m not advocating anything — re-read for the phrase “I don’t have much else to suggest.”

    What I cannot accept is that a man trying to strike up a conversation with a woman is tantamount to a criminal offense.

    Apparently you’re not a feminist, then.

  53. detinennui32

    Thanks, Lathe. Maybe I am missing something. Perhaps we should agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    I believe if a man cannot tell that a woman has her protection shields up, something is wrong with him. If a woman cannot walk through her life and the world without accepting that she will receive, and have to deal with, unwanted approaches and somewhat uncomfortable interactions with men on occasion, then something is wrong with her.

    NOte that I’m not talking here about trying to pick up women at work. That’s an entirely different story and beyond the scope of Lathe’s suggestions.

    Be that as it may, I believe men should take responsibility for their dating lives, and women should do the same with theirs. I say again: the man approaches, he must accept the likelihood of rejection. The woman receives an approach that she does not want or like; she must accept the responsibility of politiely declining and showing disinterest. I can accept that women receive many approaches from men they have no interest in. That’s fine.

    This is the new dating scene. This is the world the feminists wanted. We men have had pounded into our heads for the last 30 years that women are strong and independent. So why does that strength and independence suddenly melt away when some clumsy beta says hi to a woman? The way Lathe seems to describe it, the woman receiving an unwanted approach dissolves into convulsions of discomfort and pique, and ends up in the fetal position in a corner, rocking to and fro, and sucking her thumb. Why can’t she just say “no thanks”? Why must the beta overly concern himself with whether he’ll be accused of sexual harassment? Why can’t she just accept her attractiveness to men she won’t find attractive, and simply deal with it accordingly when it comes up? Why does the beta have to take responsibility for his feelings and fears, and hers too?

    I guess I don’t see what is so difficult about this.

  54. Anonymous Reader

    Lathe, you really should re-examine how you think about women. By regarding them as fragile, breakable figures like some little china dolls in a display case, you are putting them up onto a pedestal above you. Your frame is therefore going to be one of cringing inferiority, and to be blunt that just sets you up for rejection. Plus with that frame, you are putting yourself into a kind of supplicant posture, so that even if you do make a connection with a woman it will be from a very inferior position. In time, she’ll become contemptuous.

    I second Det, we men have had the “strong, independent women” theme beaten into our heads (in my case, literally a couple of times) over the last N years (for N > 35). It is long past time to hold them to that claim. Go look at Povich’s show, not just the bizarre guests but the audience – do you see any woman there that is going to have the vapors if a man attempts to chat her up ? I do not think so.

    I would urge you to do more approaches and to talk more to women around you, in order to get rid of this “women are dainty, delicate, fragile creatures that I might demolish with a single sneeze” frame you seem to be possessed by.

  55. Anonymous Reader

    OTC
    AR: SayWhaat is one of the good ones.

    Yeah, maybe. But dropping in to a discussion between men on how to overcome approach anxiety with a comment that’s one step away from “All Men Are Sexual Harassers And That’s All They Are” does not seem to me to be the sort of thing a “good one” would do.

    I have no doubt she’s had her share of dbags up in her face.

    No doubt, and when & if Badger puts up a thread on “The #1 Annoyance Women Face From Men” then her posting will be appropriate. But this thread is not about what annoys any particular Special Snowflake Princess, is it?

    We should agree that men really do get nuclear rejections, or the women take offense at being even asked, likening an unwanted approach to assault.

    In fact, I would argue that Say Whaat just did exactly that: likened a cold approach to a kind of assault. That’s totally out of place in this thread.

    On the flip side, women REALLY DO get persistent guys that won’t get out when they are clear about it, as above.

    I’m sure they do, and I’m sure that Feministing would be glad to host a discussion of that terrible, horrible, clearly-in-need-of-a-massive-Federal-law-right-now social problem, too. Look, there’s no shortage of places for SayWhaat to posture about how evil men are just for daring to approach Woman in anything but the most submissive of postures…but this ain’t one of them.

    PS: If you think I’ve never seen SayWhaat’s postings before, guess again. She even posts on other sites…

  56. OTC

    AR: Maybe SW’s post is a bit of a tangent to the topic and oddly placed, but I don’t see her likening any undesired approach to assault — instead questioning at what point where should a guy GTFO. Deti has cleared it up more precisely than I have.

    (As for whether she’s welcome here, I’ll leave that to our host. Badger, have you asked her number yet? Remember, she’s *never* turned down a date.)

  57. Bb

    “When I was single, I was very selective in who I talked to. I didn’t want to waste effort on girl’s who weren’t interested so I only approached girls who had sent signals and were sufficiently attractive.”

    Makes a lot of sense, except for those who women who get shy and can’t give IOIs. The women need to step it up of course, but it’s possible they are interested and can’t signal.

  58. SayWhaat

    If you think I’ve never seen SayWhaat’s postings before, guess again. She even posts on other sites…

    Yeahhh if that were true you wouldn’t have made that comment about my seeking a True Alpha. Instead you just lazily slung around manosphere rhetoric.

    I don’t see her likening any undesired approach to assault — instead questioning at what point where should a guy GTFO.

    Exactly. Deti explained it quite well, but all guys should know when to GTFO, and it’s not something that’s restricted to just douchebags, either. If you’re hanging around with a friend who doesn’t know when to back off, it’s not just him being ignorant of IODs –he’s cockblocking other guys (and probably you, too).

    Let me illustrate with a personal anecdote. One time me and a girlfriend (A) showed up at this one bar to meet up with another girlfriend (B) and the guy she had been seeing at the time. Well, that guy brought along one of his friends (who I shall name Supreme Cockblocker) and while B and her boy were making out in the corner, Supreme Cockblocker made conversation with us. It was all fine and dandy and polite until A and I started getting quite bored (he was not the most interesting conversationalist). So we excused ourselves to get drinks and went all the way to the other side of the bar.

    While we’re there, we notice two guys checking us out. Not bad. We’re sending IOIs. After some time they are literally about to get up and start coming towards us when–

    “HEY I saw you guys standing over here, what’s up?”

    Supreme Cockblocker cuts right in front of them and starts talking to us. They wait patiently for a few minutes but Supreme Cockblocker won’t budge. Finally, they lose interest and turn around.

    WTF.

    Homegirl and I are annoyed. Not cool, man.

    Some time later, I was mustering up the nerve to talk to this guy playing pool. I was just about to move in and ask if I could play the next round when–

    “Hey, what are you up to?”

    Supreme Cockblocker is standing behind me and starts asking irrelevant questions. I look around for my girlfriend — she’s staring at me with the apologetic-and-yet-not-sorry look of someone who just escaped a math class. Bitch. Shoot, this guy is still asking me questions. I answer tersely because my window of opportunity is closing as this round winds down. I can’t get away. I look over my shoulder. They’ve started a new game.

    Supreme Cockblocker strikes again.

    GUYS! Approach all you want. If a chick digs it, great. If she doesn’t, no loss. BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT. BE. THIS. GUY.

    (Side: Somehow, I finally managed to talk to Pool Guy….who turned out to be Italian and was only in the country for the next couple of days. Another fail for SayWhaat. ;___; )

  59. SayWhaat

    Badger, have you asked her number yet? Remember, she’s *never* turned down a date.

    Weeelllll he does have my email address.

  60. Lathe of Heaven

    Ah well; I did say I wanted to hear from the Badger-tariate and it seems that I have gotten what I asked for. Here are my final thoughts for this thread.

    First, I’m disappointed with the apparently unstoppable desire to personalize what I wanted to pose as a general philosophical question. Despite my having mentioned explicitly — what, now three times? — that I am not looking for, and do not need, personal operating advice, it seems that no one can resist presuming my motivations and situation, and telling me what I need to be doing, devolving all the way to personal attacks on my manhood, etc. No bother, but it’s been by turns fascinating and yet horrifying to watch. Changing the subject from facts about the world to the drawbacks of particular posters’ personalities is a pattern I have come to expect on feminist blogs, but I was not prepared to see the same pathology in the Badger’s own den.

    Face it: none of you knows fact one about me or my life, and so the detailed presumptions indicate that you’re all extremely, compulsively eager to invent a projection that you can criticize and argue against; and the outlines of that projection the you insist on seeing are extremely telling. Not that this need be a bad thing, of course; maybe there are silent readers out there, young men whose life and attitudes actually _do_ fit this projection, and for whom the advice/commentary here is relevant. So on their behalf let me step into the projection for a moment and see if I can wrap this up constructively.

    Speaking as the projection in the first person, my original statement has two parts:

    1. I believe that most approaches are unwelcome, and many unwelcome approaches are painful to women.

    2. Purely as a personally selfish, internal matter, I don’t like feeling that I’ve caused people pain.

    Objections/critiques (to put it most politely) of this posture can be seen as refuting/denying/ridiculing either 1. or 2. or both. The shorthand for each might be (anti-1) “You shouldn’t believe that women are actually being significantly/meaningfully hurt”, and (anti-2) “You shouldn’t care whether or not you’re hurting people.”

    Det32, I notice that you harp on the word “responsibility” quite a lot, which strikes me as rather legalistic; are you a lawyer IRL? It’s very telling, again, because it’s not a concept I ever brought up. I’m not talking about being responsible for people or oneself, I’m talking about the much simpler idea of causing pain, and feeling bad about causing pain. Responsibility really has nothing to do with whether one feels pain or not.

    Note in passing, that feelings which depart widely from 2. are, in fact, part of the diagnosis of being a sociopath (a more exact term than psychopath, which I had loosely used earlier); from the DSM-4 as requoted in Wikipedia the criterion is “lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another”, which is a pretty good description of some of the “advice” offered above.

    The only saving hinge, really, is around the truth or falsehood of point 1. above: are women really being significantly/meaningfully hurt by some large fraction of otherwise innocent and well-meaning approaches that they don’t want? Describing this idea as some kind of “pedestalization” is just silly (to be most polite); it’s a factual statement, and it’s either true or it’s not. The consensus here in the Den seems to be, obviously not! kind of an all-purpose “she’s a big girl, don’t worry about hurting her she’ll get over it”. I’ve gone on too long here already, and so can’t delve into the evidence for the positive; let’s just say that as a factual matter I’m not so convinced, and identify that here is where will will agree to disagree.

    Toodles.

  61. 108spirits

    With all that strength and independence, they still can’t open their mouth and tell the cockblocker to go away, then go talk to the guys they’re interested in.

    No no no, men need to be sent to re-education camp instead. Or perhaps a new Federal law on approaching women should be created. It’s all men’s fault.

  62. 108spirits

    Lathe, you got some bucketload of issues, man. You seriously think this much about approaching a chick? Your philosopher’s egghead is getting in your own way.

  63. SayWhaat

    they still can’t open their mouth and tell the cockblocker to go away, then go talk to the guys they’re interested in.

    Ah, but you guys don’t like pyrotechnic rejections now, do you? If I politely excuse myself and be on my way and the guy still doesn’t get the hint, that is not my fault for not opening my mouth. I did my part as politely as I could. Unless you’re suggesting next time I just kick him in the ass?

    And I did go talk to the guy I was interested in. He just couldn’t speak English well enough to talk back. *sigh*

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  65. Retrenched

    “With all that strength and independence, they still can’t open their mouth and tell the cockblocker to go away, then go talk to the guys they’re interested in.”

    Or better yet, they could start carrying large signs reading “NO! YOU DON”T HAVE PERMISSION TO TALK TO ME! STAY AWAY OR I’LL CALL THE POLICE!!!” that they can display any time an unattractive guy gets within 20 feet of them. That should do it.

  66. I sympathize with SayWhaat’s basic point; people without a congruent social groove are tough to deal with. Those claiming she is advocating re-education, prior restraint or force of arms are engaging in absurdity (there are women like Amanda Marcotte who want men re-educated and only allowed to talk to women under the explicit permission of the XX camp, but she’s batshit crazy).

    108spirits has a point, though, too – no one is trapped in a conversation without the ability to say “dude, I gotta go.” There’s really no reason in the 21st century a woman can’t just stop talking and leave a conversation. The key is to be firm, and unemotional. Remember that if he keeps talking to you, he’s looking for some kind of a response, and your agitation will fill that need for him (in the same way that women seek emotional responses from men in the guise of fitness tests, sometimes not caring if his response is positive or negative as long as there’s a response).

    To reference SayWhaat’s original comment:

    “And if she says so, and the guy doesn’t back off, what then? You gonna keep invading her personal space when she’s clearly already told you she’s not interested?”

    The problem with this analysis is that the anecdote you just told contains no such “telling.” Odds are that a man you meet in public doesn’t really understand IOIs and IODs, and let’s be honest here, bandwidth limitations mean that not everyone can read The Badger Hut, so lots of guys don’t have anywhere to go to learn this stuff. So things like excusing yourself to get a drink or checking out other guys are not going to communicate lack of interest to him.

    “Ah, but you guys don’t like pyrotechnic rejections now, do you?”

    This is something of a dodge. What makes a rejection pyrotechnic is heavy emotional release (like cruelly laughing in his face, pointing at his face while talking, getting angry, or throwing a drink on him). In any case the nature of a pyrotechnic rejection is one of sadism and seeing the recipient as subhuman for daring to speak to you. This is not the case when you are simply ejecting from a one-sided conversation with someone who isn’t interesting.

    This isn’t referring to SayWhaat in particular, but in popular culture we hear a lot about how women are the more socially sensitive sex and all the rest of it, and then we hear countless stories like this where women play the same subtle strategy and are shocked that it’s not being picked up: “I did this and that and he just didn’t get it!” As far as I can see, women have as much work to do as men when it comes to communicating better to the opposite sex. (To her credit I assume SW is here because she wants to learn about men.)

    BTW I’d like to toot my own horn in that I believe I was the first to drop the term “pyrotechnic rejection” in the Manosphere.

  67. Bb

    @Retrenched and @108Spirits, what is the better way to handle Cockblocker? What’s the polite, but firm and clear way to say thanks, not interested, now I’m moving on?

  68. Lathe,

    I appreciate your commentary but truth be told I don’t spend much time considering the source of approach anxiety. I simply regard it as irrational and something I have to learn to push through.

    Sometimes I have a bit of concern that I’m bothering someone, but I never consider it “pain.” Anyway as I said before my thought process is like this:
    -Most women want to be approached by attractive guys (esp if they indicate they’ve spent time on their clothes, hair or makeup; they don’t wear that stuff out in public for themselves)
    -You have no idea if a woman thinks you’re an attractive guy until you approach
    -Ergo, approach and find out; the sooner you do, the sooner you can either get to know her or move on with your day

    I think people have misunderstood one of my comments. It’s not that I wish for an approach to end because I’ve found my target boring or unattractive; I sometimes hope an approach fails before I have done the approach, for the sole reason that I don’t really feel like talking, and so if she blows out my opener I can pat myself on the back for approaching and go back to my day instead of stuck in conversation.

    When I feel that way I usually eschew the approach entirely, because any woman I approach deserves my top game until she proves otherwise, and if I’m Mr Introverted that day she won’t get my top game.

  69. “@Retrenched and @108Spirits, what is the better way to handle Cockblocker? What’s the polite, but firm and clear way to say thanks, not interested, now I’m moving on?”

    First, say something to him, don’t just excuse yourself. Second, stop talking to him and go start talking to another man. I know that involves an approach, but it shouldn’t be that hard when the alternative is the guy you don’t want to talk to anymore. The best part about talking to another man is if the first guy tries to invade the conversation, he’ll get AMOG’d by the second guy and you won’t have to blow him off yourself.

    Third, old-school bros had this concept of “falling on the grenade” – someone would game the ugly chick/cockblocker so the other guys could get it on with the hot girls. Consider someone in the group falling on the grenade by talking to Mr. Clueless for a bit.

  70. Bb

    “Say something to him.”

    Thanks Badger, but can you given an example of what the something is, because it sounds like it’s not specific or clear, he may not get what’s happening. Is it “I’m leaving now, it’s been nice talking to you, but now I want to go meet other people?” or “Great meeting you, I’m going to mingle with other people now”?

  71. and if you game the cockblocking girl, your buddy owes. BIG TIME.

    you’re NEVER to be ridiculed for sleeping with her. and until your bro has blown the pick up……you MUST keep gaming.

    aaaaaah…..man code.

  72. Bb-

    are you speaking from a “woman being approached by a man perspective”? if so, just politely let him know you aren’t intersted or, excuse yourself from the conversation. if he persists, you stand firm and reiterate your frame. at that point….it’s perfectly acceptly to simply walk away. alot of times, guys just aren’t able to pick up the IOD. so you may need just walk.

  73. Bb

    Danny, I’m asking about SayWhaat’s situation with Clueless Cockblocker. Scroll up a bit.

  74. Bb,

    I said it above:

    “Dude, I gotta go.”

    What the F are we all doing up at this hour anyway.

  75. Bb-
    that guy was an asshole. tell him to fuck off. he knew what he doing….and he was being a dick. if i were one of the guys getting IOI’s from saaywhat and her pal, i’d have introduced myself to the guy, then started talking to the girls and phased him out. i mean, let’s be honest, the girls would have been ignoring him anyhow. that or interrupt his talkng with the girls. and trust me, i’m VERY SURE saaywhat and her gf would have made eye contact begging, “a little help here please.” and i’d have stepped in to assist.

  76. “and if you game the cockblocking girl, your buddy owes. BIG TIME.

    you’re NEVER to be ridiculed for sleeping with her. and until your bro has blown the pick up……you MUST keep gaming.

    aaaaaah…..man code.”

    I solve these issues by riding dolo. Going out with a big posse is so 2000. And gaming a girl in a big group is just asking for trouble; the game is orders of magnitude more difficult unless and until you can isolate, and half the reason she’s in a group is to keep them all from doing something stupid like falling for a guy like you.

    Another reason day game is nice, people tend to be solo or paired or otherwise not hooked to a hive.

  77. dude, i get off work at 11pm. lol. i’ll be up for another 2-3 hours. lol.

  78. Badger-
    check your email, i sent you a pic. lol. you’ll like it.

  79. “that guy was an asshole.”

    That is one way to put it.

    “he knew what he doing”

    I’m not so sure, I and many guys I know have had off days where our sensors don’t work and we just aren’t groking that she doesn’t want to keep talking to us.

    “if i were one of the guys getting IOI’s from saaywhat and her pal, i’d have introduced myself to the guy, then started talking to the girls and phased him out.”

    You caught me, I hadn’t really considered the fact that this was a collective game failure. The first guy had anti-game, and the other guys decided not to approach based on ONE guy talking to TWO women who visibly didn’t want to talk to him. I consider a 2:1 set (a +1, more girl than guy) always openable, AT LEAST one girl in the set is available if the guy is her boyfriend, if not both of them are.

    Incidentally, this analysis suggests that those two guys may not have been dominant enough to impress SayWhaat and her friend HolidayInn once they opened their mouths, if they were spooked from approaching by a dude with no game.

    So it looks like she was just in the wrong bar that night.

  80. danny,

    You dog you.

  81. Bb

    Oh, I missed it Badger. “Dude I gotta go.” That would cover it, eh? Seems too easy, but good to know!

    G’night gentlemen.

  82. “Incidentally, this analysis suggests that those two guys may not have been dominant enough to impress SayWhaat and her friend HolidayInn once they opened their mouths, if they were spooked from approaching by a dude with no game.”

    very true. if saaywhat’s looking for a true alpha, i doubt these guys could have cut the mustard for them.

    “You dog you.”

    man’s gotta eat. lol.

    “G’night gentlemen.”

    ni-ni Angel.

  83. Bb

    “i’m VERY SURE saaywhat and her gf would have made eye contact begging, “a little help here please.” and i’d have stepped in to assist.”

    Sorry, one more.

    If done correctly by a girl, this sounds like it could be a massive IOI. She’s indicating that she prefers you over the Clueless Cockblocker, plus you get to DHV by riding in and saving the day.

    But you both have to be good at giving and receiving subtext and body language in order for this to work.

    For instance, I can make indicator signal eyes with the husband all day long, and he can’t get my meaning. He’ll just come up and say, “What do you want?”

    Same look to my sister, and she knows exactly what I’m talking about.

  84. Bb-

    she said she was giving clear IOI’s. but the guys LET (read that again LET) cockblocker stand in their way.

    fuck that dude, if it were me…..i going in. some clueless douche isn’t standing between me and a woman i’m interested in.

  85. Lathe said:

    1. I believe that most approaches are unwelcome, and many unwelcome approaches are painful to women.

    2. Purely as a personally selfish, internal matter, I don’t like feeling that I’ve caused people pain.
    ——————
    Holy shit.

    Your head is all wrong, dude.

    Here’s another frame for you to try on:

    When I approach women, I am giving something value to them. I’m funny and interesting. I make them feel good, even if they’re married or I decide I’m not interested.

    Pain? Not even in the picture. I’m a breath of fresh air, a welcome break from a boring, average day. I make them feel alive, attractive, and tingle with possibility when I pay attention to them. In a just world, they’d pay me for the service I provide.

  86. SayWhaat, you might want to ask Cockblocker a question like:

    “Hey…uh…do you know Poolplayer Guy over there? I think he’s really hot. Oh? You don’t? Too bad. I wonder if he has a girlfriend….”

    Or something similar. It’s very clear, and not overtly disrespectful to Cockblocker.

  87. Lathe of Heaven

    Danny: “When I approach women, I am giving something value to them. … I’m a breath of fresh air, a welcome break from a boring, average day.”

    Yes, I should have covered this frame in my first comment above, under “being a narcissist who assumes his presence is always welcome.” It’s one way to go. The operative question is, are you capable of believing this, ie holding the frame, without actual evidence that it’s true? Or do you hold frames without regard to reality?

    Of course, it may be true for you! you handsome and charming devil, that you are always welcome. But, sadly, we can’t all be Danny.

  88. Anonymous Reader

    If you think I’ve never seen SayWhaat’s postings before, guess again. She even posts on other sites…

    Yeahhh if that were true you wouldn’t have made that comment about my seeking a True Alpha. Instead you just lazily slung around manosphere rhetoric.

    Chuckle. Reading for meaning and paying attention to details never has been your strong point, has it?

  89. Anonymous Reader

    Lathe of Heaven
    1. I believe that most approaches are unwelcome, and many unwelcome approaches are painful to women.

    Why do you believe this to be true?

  90. Anonymous Reader

    “@Retrenched and @108Spirits, what is the better way to handle Cockblocker? What’s the polite, but firm and clear way to say thanks, not interested, now I’m moving on?”

    Echoing Badger, I would suggest direct verbalization such as “Excuse me, I have to go talk with those people over there right now” and walk away without waiting for his response. Whether the man in this case was being obnoxious deliberately, or was just very unobservant of IOD’s, no one can say. Either way, an honest “I have to go over there now”, “My friends want to have a private conversation”, “I can’t talk with you right now”, something blunt but still polite, should be sufficiently clear. That’s assuming his blood alcohol level hasn’t gotten so high he’s into the state of “hearing what he wants to hear”. Some people are like that all the time, yes, many more people get that way after having “one too many” adult beverage. What’s “one too many”? Varies from person to person, and day to day. Women generally have a thinner stomach lining than men, so they may get there on fewer drinks. But lack of sleep, lack of food, coming down with a cold — lots of things make us more likely to get stupidified by “one too many”.

    To be totally blatant, as a former bartender, I must point out that many people become quite dense-headed and unable to understand any subtle communication at all, when they are approaching the “too much to drink” stage. In fact at that point some people – men and women alike – become more and more like a cranky 2-year old that wants what she wants, now, and doesn’t want to take a nap. As an employee, I found that stage of the evening tedious. As a customer, I often call it a night when people around me reach that point. Could be that the cockblocker was near that point.

    There comes a time when diminishing returns have set in, and it’s time to move on to a different group of people. That’s true within a bar/night spot, or within a set of night spots. Saying “bye-bye” and sticking to simple sentences using short words is the best way to communicate with people in this stage of the evening.

    Now, I’ve seen some women discourage men like this by having them play errand boy for a while — “do you have a tissue? Could you get one for me?” — “Could you get me a glass of water?” — “Would you go check to see if it is still raining?” — etc. and each time he’s away they go sit/chat/dance with a man they find interesting. This can be repeated until the unwanted man gets sick of it, but that (a) takes a while (b) can have more complex results if any one man in the picture decides to make a Big Issue out of the situation with another man.

    ( It’s also cruel, but I don’ t know if that matters or not.)

  91. OTC

    SayWhaat, in the case of Cockblocker, I think there’s two different sitautions. You intentionally met up with him as part of two melding groups. That’s a different set of social expectations than if he approached you randomly. If I go out with a group of people, I usually expect to stay with them until you explicitly break ranks. Now factor in the fact that his buddy left to suck face, and now he’s left all alone in a bar.

    Had he approached you randomly, then his clingy behavior was really out of line. He should have read your disinterest and left. If not, an explicit “please leave” is needed. Until you say those words, then it doesn’t count as being a jerk.

    However, he was part of a meetup, he probably had some expectation to hang with the group, and have platonic company for the night. Since you met up intentionally, it probably would have been explicitly break ranks – “Hey, nice meeting you, but I we’re going to go off by myself for a while. See you some other time.” Shake hands. He’s gone.

    By just walking off, he probably thought the platonic group interaction was still on.

    I think there’s a chance you are being unduly harsh. That’s certainly not assault, and you didn’t clearly “say so”.

  92. OTC

    Ugh, I need an edit button. Please repair all the incomplete person and tense changes in your mind. I have a bad habit of revising stuff and then not proofing the whole thing.

  93. Bb

    @Anonymous Reader
    Thank you, that’s great feedback, especially with alcohol as a comprehension inhibitor. Some very good points. (It also believe it does matter if people are cruel.)

    @Lathe, I believe you are getting Danny and Dogsquat mixed up.

    “The operative question is, are you capable of believing this, ie holding the frame, without actual evidence that it’s true?”

    If they hold this frame with a friendly attitude and confidence, I’m sure that in most cases it is true.

  94. SayWhaat

    @ OTC:

    You have a point. He came to hang with his buddy, who had a girl, so it makes sense that he would want to talk to other people. However, there were other people in the “group”, so I don’t really think that it was necessary for him to tag along after me and my girlfriend. I’m certainly not likening his behavior to assault — it was just annoying, that’s all.

    @ Badger, Dogsquat, Danny:

    You guys have a point in that I should have been more direct. The thing with girls is that we just don’t want to be rude! Of course, I’ve since realized that men (people in general, actually) prefer it when we are straightforward.

    this analysis suggests that those two guys may not have been dominant enough to impress SayWhaat and her friend HolidayInn once they opened their mouths, if they were spooked from approaching by a dude with no game.

    First off, lay off my friend. She didn’t do anything that justifies you calling her names. I’m the only one who gets to make fun of my friends, got it?

    Secondly (and I’m a little annoyed that I have to repeat this), I’m not interested in Alpha men. Those men were not Alpha, and that was fine with me. I wanted them to talk to me. I was encouraging them to come and talk to me. Do you see the opportunities missed, because of Supreme Cockblocker? A guy I could have potentially been more compatible with didn’t get a chance to talk to me, I didn’t get a chance to talk to him, and Supreme Cockblocker — well, he’s kind of the worst off in this situation, isn’t he? :( It just isn’t an efficient way of socializing, really.

  95. SayWhaat

    Pain? Not even in the picture. I’m a breath of fresh air, a welcome break from a boring, average day. I make them feel alive, attractive, and tingle with possibility when I pay attention to them. In a just world, they’d pay me for the service I provide.

    Dogsquat, if we had more men with your attitude, we’d have fewer problems. : )

    Seriously though. It’s just shy of arrogance, but charming enough to get you by. I approve.

  96. “But, sadly, we can’t all be Danny.”

    why the hell not? there’s nothing special about me. but i believe Bb was right in assuming Lathe was mixing us up.

    Saaywhat-

    you say you don’t want alpha. well what Dogsquat was projecting was alpha by nature in that he realizes his worth to a woman. alpha isn’t just some chest thumping tarzan. alpha is typically just confidence, and having
    charisma and self respect.

    and i’m not so sure SCB is the worst off in the situation because YOU missed out on what could have been a great opportunity for you.

  97. “First off, lay off my friend. She didn’t do anything that justifies you calling her names. I’m the only one who gets to make fun of my friends, got it?”

    ?! What name did I call her?

  98. “Secondly (and I’m a little annoyed that I have to repeat this), I’m not interested in Alpha men. Those men were not Alpha, and that was fine with me. I wanted them to talk to me. I was encouraging them to come and talk to me. ”

    I didn’t say alpha, I said dominant, and I didn’t mean it in a superlative sense, I simply meant the idea that they would take control of the social situation. (I use the term alpha in more of a trait sense like Athol does than as a reference to a personality.)

    As Danny commented, these guys were sufficiently dissuaded from approaching two girls who were signalling hard to them because of the presence of a solitary guy the girls weren’t interested in.

    “Do you see the opportunities missed, because of Supreme Cockblocker?”

    I see the opportunities missed, but my point is that these guys share some of the blame for it. He didn’t force them to not approach (a positive set should be approached, esp if the girls are giving the “save me” signal). That the fates of four people were controlled by one guy doesn’t speak well of the dudes’ ability to manage their own situation. That’s not really alpha nor beta, that’s just good manhood.

  99. SayWhaat

    ?! What name did I call her?

    You called her “Holiday Inn”. I assumed you meant it in a derogatory sense, as in guys just check in and out. That’s not the case at all.

    However if that’s not what you were getting at then we’re good.

  100. “However if that’s not what you were getting at then we’re good.”

    You don’t know the lyrics of the song from which your handle comes.

  101. SayWhaat

    You don’t know the lyrics of the song from which your handle comes.

    I don’t! And here I thought I was being original. :(
    Care to enlighten me?

  102. SayWhaat

    (I use the term alpha in more of a trait sense like Athol does than as a reference to a personality.)

    Ah, well. I just felt the need to defend myself from the visiting Spearheads, that’s all. :)

  103. “ya go hotel motel whatcha gonna do today (say what)
    ya say im gonna get a fly girl gonna get some spankin
    drive off in a def oj
    everybody go, hotel motel holiday inn
    say if your girl starts actin up, then you take her friend “

  104. Lathe of Heaven

    @Lathe, I believe you are getting Danny and Dogsquat mixed up.

    Eeek! it seems you are right. Sorry about that, guys; but no harm done, since Danny and Dogsquat both appear to be charming and handsome devils.

  105. Lathe of Heaven

    Bb: “LH “The operative question is, are you capable of believing this, ie holding the frame, without actual evidence that it’s true?”

    If they hold this frame with a friendly attitude and confidence, I’m sure that in most cases it is true.”

    Bb, you do understand that this is not a logical reply, right?

    What you’ve written is akin to the exchange A: “Why are people poor?” B: “If they had a lot of money, then they wouldn’t be poor”. The B reply is a true statement in itself, but does not answer the original question at all, and is even kind of dismissive and insulting.

    *Sinking feeling* Bb, do you hold to the idea that confidence is something a man can simply choose to exhibit at will? and so those who don’t have simply chosen not to, when they could have? I hadn’t thought you were one of those, but now I fear I need to check.

  106. SayWhaat

    I KNOW THIS SONG WTF

  107. Manufacturing Device of the Christian Afterlife said:

    Of course, it may be true for you! you handsome and charming devil, that you are always welcome.

    ____________________

    Handsome? My mom thinks so.

    Charming? When I want to.

    Confident? Yes, about a lot of things. Hey – it’s a sorry dog that won’t wag his own tail.

    I want to help you. You seem like a person in pain, and from where I sit, it’s entirely unnecessary. You’re in a hell of your own making.

    You might think I’m a chauvinist or a player or something like that. Far from it. I’ve never had casual sex and I don’t want to – I’m not wired that way. I love women. The best boss I’ve ever had is a woman. Lots of my friends are women. I love my mom. I quite enjoy feminine company. I think most women possess some kind of beauty, be it physical or mental or some combination. I enjoy basking in that beauty.

    My frame comes from empathizing with women, from putting myself in their shoes. Imagine your (and mine, sometimes) daily life:
    Wake up, shower, go to work, run errands, gym/hobby, read, school if applicable, commence rack ops, and repeat ad nauseum. Grey and colorless, drab.

    What if, one day, a really cute girl came up and talked to you?

    She’s sweet, funny, smart, and seemed to be into you. While she talked to you, she mentioned how much she admires what you did/who you are/some skill you exhibit. She gives you a little hug and a quick kiss on the cheek.

    Now, even if that conversation lasted only 5 minutes before you parted ways, you’d feel like a million bucks. It’d put a spring in your step, and give you a positive outlook. You’d take heart that people like her were out there, and the rest of the day would look brighter. The air would smell sweeter, the colors would pop, and the tribulations of life would seem lighter for a time.

    Seewhamsayne?

    Just switch the genders and that is what I’m doing.

    I sense that you have a servant’s soul. I have one, too – I am usually happiest when I’m doing a good turn for someone else. Hell – that’s what I do for a living. People call me on the worst day of their life, and I ride out on my ambulance and give ‘em a little help. Most of the time it feels great, even if I’m just holding a lonely, dying old man’s hand and giving him some company as he passes on.

    Right now, you feel as if you’re serving these women by removing yourself from their presence. Your gift to them is you not “bothering”: them, not “distracting” them. I “serve” them by making them laugh, feel sexy, possibly desired by an attractive* man, and giving them a tingle bolus. I make them feel good, and it makes me feel good to do so.

    Put yourself in their shoes. If you were them, what would you want?

    See where my frame comes from? Honestly, now – does it still seem so arrogant?

  108. Oops, I forgot the asterisk part. Also, sorry about the walls of text, Senor Badger.

    Anyway, the asterisk:

    Now, the thing you have to realize is that things women find attractive are not the same things men find attractive. If you genuinely don’t know what they are, you ought to keep reading this blog, and do some poking around on the links here.

    The absolute best thing about being a man is that much of what women find attractive is under your direct control. We’re not as much at the mercy of our genetics as women are – for which I am eternally grateful.

    You can learn to be charming. You can learn to be confident. YOU CAN MAKE YOURSELF ATTRACTIVE TO WOMEN. I PROMISE YOU THIS. YOU CAN DO IT IF YOU PUT IN SOME EFFORT.

    Read this blog, pay attention to the commentators. Click around on Badger’s links. Go over to HUS and read what most of the girls say.

    Learn, young Lathe! Make it happen!

  109. SayWhaat said:

    Dogsquat, if we had more men with your attitude, we’d have fewer problems. : )

    Seriously though. It’s just shy of arrogance, but charming enough to get you by. I approve.
    __________________________

    You’re welcome. I’ll send you a bill.

  110. Lathe said:

    *Sinking feeling* Bb, do you hold to the idea that confidence is something a man can simply choose to exhibit at will? and so those who don’t have simply chosen not to, when they could have? I hadn’t thought you were one of those, but now I fear I need to check.
    ______________________________

    I’m not Bb, but I feel compelled to answer. Apologies, Dear Bb.

    You can fake confidence for a short time.

    It’s easier in the long run, and better for you as a human being to actually become confident.

    Men need to create to be fulfilled. From fulfillment -even if it’s just partial, in one aspect of life – confidence to grows.

    Bring something into this world that has not been there before – create it. It can be art, or value, or music, or knowledge, or a company. It can be the smile on the face of a little kid on the burn floor of your local hospital.

    Work at it. Be persistent at it. Get good at it. Master it. People will begin to respect you for it.

    You will begin to feel confidence. Attack the next thing. It’s a self perpetuating cycle.

    It is fucking awesome.

  111. “Work at it. Be persistent at it. Get good at it. Master it. People will begin to respect you for it.

    You will begin to feel confidence. Attack the next thing. It’s a self perpetuating cycle.

    It is fucking awesome.”

    spoken like a true Division Marine. lol. i expect nothing less Devil-Dog. lol.

    get some.

    i’m going to post soon about my run in’s with Dr Jadick. he was 2/3 Surgical Battalion Surgeon in Fallujauh. dude’s TIT’S. wrote a book about the war and everything. alpha as a mother fuck btw.

    he’s good people too.

  112. OTC

    Work at it. Be persistent at it. Get good at it. Master it. People will begin to respect you for it. You will begin to feel confidence. Attack the next thing. It’s a self perpetuating cycle.

    Good stuff. But, I don’t think this enough. I’ve mastered plenty of things, but confidence with women does NOT come for free with that. Mastering the 347th level of WoW won’t bring confidence or respect or anything, really. Mastering the guitar in your room but never showing anyone else will do nothing for your confidence.

    Confidence with women comes practice with women, and it’s better if it’s directed. Confidence in social situations comes from practice in social situations, and it’s better if it’s directed.

    And you can lose it just as easily as you gain it, if you give up continuously practicing. Wait until you have kids and have to spend a few years with zero social life.

  113. Anonymous Reader

    +1 on both dogsquat and OTC’s comment. Way up at the top of this thread, Badger said explicitly that approaches are the way to learn how to approach women, and various men have added to that the value of bantering, flirting, just talking, and so forth.

    Now I add another +1 to OTC’s comment. If I was running a class for expectant parents, I’d take the men into a different room, maybe a different building, and tell them straight out what high estrogen levels can and likely will do to their wives, and what lack of sleep will do to both of them. Then I’d offer suggestions on how to cope with all of that in the short term, and probably hand out copies of Athol’s book for the long term.

    Social interaction is a skill, just as surely as playing a musical instrument or solving a mathematics problem or executing a good sports play, etc. are. Social isolation, whether self imposed or otherwise, can cause the ability to interact socially to deteriorate. At least it is easier to re-learn than it was to learn in the first place, for most people.

    Confidence makes a man more attractive and interesting to all people, not just nubile women. It’s easier for a confident man to get a job, it’s easier for a confident man to run a meeting, make a sale, get team members to cooperate, etc. Let’s not confuse arrogance with competent confidence.

  114. OTC said:

    “Mastering the 347th level of WoW won’t bring confidence or respect or anything, really. ”
    ________________________

    The WoW player isn’t creating anything. He’s jumping through somebody else’s hoops.

    The guy who designed the level – dreamed it and programmed it? He’s got some raw materiel to work with.

    I’m not arguing with you – I agree with what you’ve said. I was addressing a more fundamental building block – not just confidence with women, but confidence itself.

  115. Jadick was beloved by all his guys. The BAS was FIVE MINUTES BY FOOT from the fighting.

    That is some Warrior shit from a physician.

    My BAS was 30 minutes away. Yup. I was jealous, and worried about my guys a lot.

  116. Dogdquat-

    clarif: 1/8 Marines. one of the guys i work with is a green shirt and he was one of his HM’s F-town,

    i was in the OR with him yesterday flouro’ing one of his cases, he saw i was the tech and said, “thank fucking God.” there were no women in the OR with us that evening so it was 4 salty as hell bastards ribbing each other and talking shit. when Jadick announce he got the stone and was gonna close in a sec LCDR Thompson voiced, “good, i’ll be home by 7.” i looked at him, and said, “now you won’t.” he nodded, “fuck.” lol.

    Jadick announced he needed to dialite the ureter and it ll take about 20-30 more minutes, i looked at Thompson.

    “thanks for the Blue Falcon dip-shit.” me, Jadick, and the anesthesia busted out laughing. Thompson just shook his head. lol.

  117. Bb

    @Lathe I wasn’t intending to be insulting or dismissive. We may be viewing confidence differently.

    If one views confidence as a *mindset*, then the value given [breath of fresh air, a welcome break from a boring average day] is true because confident people are generally pleasant to be with. Someone who is naturally confident or friendly, like Dogsquat, may experience people who are unreceptive. But he doesn’t think of this as counterevidence. He thinks: “That person is obviously not in the state of mind to appreciate someone who’s confident and friendly. Hope they feel better soon.” That’s because most of his encounters reinforce his confidence in himself. As you said: “Of course, it may be true for you!”

    So Dogsquat’s mindset and his normal encounters with people are mutually reinforcing over an *arc* of encounters. Thus he maintains his mindset while seeking new encounters.

    But if one views confidence as a *frame* to be deployed in individual situations, then the value given [friendliness, etc] is conditional on evidence of success. It’s a tactic to be deployed in individual encounters, then anxiously monitored. Thus it succeeds or fails with each individual encounter. If Dogsquat’s doppelganger Catsquat deploys this tactic when opening a set and they are unreceptive, he thinks: “This tactic doesn’t work, I can’t hold the frame, better try another tactic.”

    So Catsquat’s frame depends on how the *individual* encounter goes. Thus he cannot maintain his frame during an encounter and he must reset it for each encounter.

    When Catsquat sees Dogsquat assume success in an encounter, he interprets it as narcissism. When Dogsquat sees Catsquat struggling to maintain a frame, he thinks: ???

    Logical enough?

    Bb, do you hold to the idea that confidence is something a man can simply choose to exhibit at will? and so those who don’t have simply chosen not to, when they could have? I hadn’t thought you were one of those, but now I fear I need to check.

    Not at all. If someone doesn’t feel naturally or intuitively confident, then just simply acting that way can feel false or just plain difficult. It’s not enough to say “just act confident!” or “fake it until you make it.” It can also take time, practice, and scaffolding–developing and using tactics until a foundation of confidence comes in, and building from there.

    A lot of women respond to confidence in men…a lot of men respond to femininity in women. This summer I took on more feminine behaviors, and a lot of times it did feel false and difficult. I’m hoping with time some of the behaviors will stick. Some others–walking and being comfortable in heels–that’s just never going to work.

  118. Bb

    @Dougsquat,

    No apology needed! But I confess I am feeling left out that I didn’t get a euphemistic moniker from the inventive Caninecroucher.

  119. Lathe of Heaven

    Bb — Thanks for your considered reply; I will try to give it the attention it deserves. My first thought, though, in your parable is simply that Catsquat is reality-based and open to evidence, while Dogsquat (as you describe him, not to say the real guy) has fixed, self-flattering ideas that are impervious to evidence. Of these two approaches to seeing the world, stated this way, I know which one I reflexively admire and which one seems pathological.

    But, I will have to think further; for example, I don’t understand your making an important distinction between “frame” and “mindset”; I always thought that the PUA meaning of the first is basically synonymous with the common meaning of the second. Anyway, if I think of a useful response I’ll post it.

  120. Stephenie Rowling

    The WoW player isn’t creating anything. He’s jumping through somebody else’s hoops.

    I’m not sure about that. 90% of the things a guy can master had been done by someone else, even if you are an expert shooter you didn’t invented the gun. Just a though.
    But maybe I’m biased my hubby and I play and I’m always impressed by his abilities, not to mention I can’t read a map (small country we don’t actually need them) so after I spent 2 months lost in silver moon city he rescued me. Swoon worthy move IMO :)

  121. Pingback: the L word | BbSezMore

  122. Dannyfrom504

    Dogsquat-

    What’s your rank Marine?

  123. OTC

    My first thought, though, in your parable is simply that Catsquat is reality-based and open to evidence, while Dogsquat (as you describe him, not to say the real guy) has fixed, self-flattering ideas that are impervious to evidence.

    As was mine not too long ago. Two responses:

    1. Social relationships are about feeling good, which has jack shit to do with rationality and evidence. You can’t “prove” someone into liking you.

    If #1 is too scary, then…

    2. Focus your overdeveloped sense of rationality to the macro and away from the micro. Analyze the cause and effect of your behaviors in the big picture – does faking it produce good results or not? Look at how likable people actually behave. Does emulating them work or not? Is what you are doing working?

  124. Anonymous Reader

    Lathe of Heaven
    My first thought, though, in your parable is simply that Catsquat is reality-based and open to evidence, while Dogsquat (as you describe him, not to say the real guy) has fixed, self-flattering ideas that are impervious to evidence.

    Why do you believe this to be true?

  125. Lathe of Heaven

    OTC: “does faking it produce good results or not?”

    Here’s a radical (apparently) notion: for those who value their integrity, “faking it” automatically produces a bad result.

    Here’s a question for you, OTC: how much “faking it” would you be willing to do to “produce the goods” that you desire? If, by some magic technology, you could inhabit the body of George Clooney, use all the mannerisms of George Clooney, and leave behind nearly every trace of your “own” personality, and thereby achieve G.C.’s admirable results, would you? How much of the “real you” is it important for you to preserve?

    And, here’s the same question in another guise: If there was a time in your past when you were interested in sex but not marriage, did you ever consider using prostitutes? Assuming not, why not? Aside from the obvious practical drawbacks of cost, illegality, disease risk, etc., did you have any other reasons for hesitation? Would sex be satisfying for you — “the goods” — to sleep with a woman who was only attracted to your money? Of is it important to you that the “real you” be seen as desirable?

  126. Lathe of Heaven

    PS to Badger: It remains hugely entertaining, to see so many people so utterly unable to restrain themselves from shrieking at a figment of their own imagination, that they’ve attached to the other end of the word “you”. Your commenters seem to have a real need to make up imaginary playmates to beat up on. It’s fascinating, and I think very revealing about your community.

  127. Bb said:

    No apology needed! But I confess I am feeling left out that I didn’t get a euphemistic moniker from the inventive Caninecroucher.

    ________________________________

    FUCK CATSQUAT! He kicks puppies and voted for that notorious deviant, Hubert Humphrey!

    Inventive indeed, my dear.

    The problem I have when I read your screename is decades old:

    I’m a musician of (negligible, actually) talent. I’ve been playing drums and percussion for nigh on 20 years now, and my brain reads your name and says,”Oh! It’s B-Flat. Hit the black key this time!”

    BeeFlat is not the nicest thing to say to a lady, especially if she’s never played Hadyn’s Symphony No. 98 on tympani.

    Alas, I am a victim of my nervous system and it’s programming in your case.

  128. @Danny:

    Lolzer. People get PISSED if you tempt the medical gods.

    A couple months ago I had a paramedic student shadowing me in the ED, and he goes,”I sure hope we get some action tonight. It’s quiet in here.”

    It’s the only time I have ever yelled at a ‘medic student I’ve precepted.

    Immediately, the med control phone started ringing. The sliding glass doors into the waiting room didn’t have time to shut because of the people streaming through. Three hours later we were buried in C-Diff bleeders and puking drunks.

    That asshole waltzed out when his shift was up and I still had 8 hours to go.

  129. Lathe said:

    My first thought, though, in your parable is simply that Catsquat is reality-based and open to evidence, while Dogsquat (as you describe him, not to say the real guy) has fixed, self-flattering ideas that are impervious to evidence. Of these two approaches to seeing the world, stated this way, I know which one I reflexively admire and which one seems pathological.

    ____________________________

    This will no doubt sound like bragging or insanity to you, but:

    My “approach to seeing the world” is reality based. It’s evidence is hair twirling, eyes lighting up, giggles, and arm slapping. It’s texts that say “What r u doing now?”

    It’s because of how I behave – I like women and enjoy talking to them. Most women like talking to me.

    Talking to girls is fun! Talking to Dogsquat is fun, too! So is referring to himself by a screen name in the third person!

  130. Lathe said:

    Here’s a radical (apparently) notion: for those who value their integrity, “faking it” automatically produces a bad result.

    __________________________

    I get what you’re saying. I used to have a similar sort of problem. It’s kind of hard to explain, but I used to feel sort of illogical when talking to girls. Like I was putting up a front by pretending I wasn’t interested, or throwing out BS or something. It felt dishonest at a fundamental level.

    I had these internal conflicts, and I think my discomfort was communicated somehow to girls I was “hitting” on. I did not have great success with women.

    I was cured of that by working as a bouncer for a few years. I was at work, and it’s natural to chat with your customers. I was able to be myself more, since I had an “excuse” to be there, hobnobbing with cute women.

    I was actually quite shocked to learn that girls liked me, and enjoyed being around me. Since then, things have been different.

    I highly, highly encourage you to get a job at a bar if at all practicable. Even a part-time weekend gig will benefit you quite a bit.

  131. Lathe said:

    PS to Badger: It remains hugely entertaining, to see so many people so utterly unable to restrain themselves from shrieking at a figment of their own imagination, that they’ve attached to the other end of the word “you”. Your commenters seem to have a real need to make up imaginary playmates to beat up on. It’s fascinating, and I think very revealing about your community.

    ____________________

    I haven’t read the whole thread, but I didn’t see anyone “shrieking” at you.

    I see people trying to help you – that’s certainly what I’m doing.

    Feigned superiority and snidely looking down your notional nose at “us” is not conducive to receiving further help.

    You may apologize or clarify as you see fit.

  132. Lathe of Heaven

    I see people trying to help you – that’s certainly what I’m doing.

    No, what you see are people trying to help some made-up idea of me. You don’t know my situation, and you do not know that I “need” help. You don’t know if I’m married or single, celibate or rollin’ in it, old or young, or even gay or straight. You can guess, based on your own presumptions and priorities, but the plain truth is that you literally have no idea what I actually need. Capice?

    Note above, that I said quite explicitly and clearly that I do not want advice, do not need advice, and am not asking for advice. Insisting on giving advice to someone who explicitly said they don’t want or need it is a hostile act, since it presumes you know the person better than they know themselves, after reading only a few dozen or hundred words from pseudononymous posting. This much, I thought, should be obvious; you may apologize or clarify as you see fit.

  133. Anonymous Reader

    So, Lathe, when are you going to answer me?

    Ever?

  134. Bb

    Lathe,
    If we take it back to your beginning statement, you said: “I believe that most approaches are unwelcome, and many unwelcome approaches are painful to women.”

    You are stating this as a belief—where do you get this belief from, and how do you know it’s true for most women? What evidence do you have? Have many women told you this?

    I can say for me, when a man approached, I didn’t necessarily feel pain or feel unwelcoming. If he was open and friendly, I didn’t mind. If he was furtive, anxious and aggressive, I did. It really depended on the attitude of his approach. Also: context. Alone walking at night? Not a great idea. In a well lit-area with a good group of people, completely amenable.

    To my Dogsquat parable you say: ” My first thought, though, in your parable is simply that Catsquat is reality-based and open to evidence, while Dogsquat (as you describe him, not to say the real guy) has fixed, self-flattering ideas that are impervious to evidence. Of these two approaches to seeing the world, stated this way, I know which one I reflexively admire and which one seems pathological.”

    I submit that neither example Dogsquat nor Catsquat have any idea if the approach is going to be welcome or not. Dogsquat assumes it will…is Catsquat assuming it won’t based on the belief you originally stated?

    The reality is, neither know for sure, and the only evidence either would have—behavior—could be viewed as purely subjective. A woman my cast her eyes downward because she either wants to avoid interaction with Catsquat and he makes her uncomfortable. OR she could want to welcome his approach, but cast her eyes downward because Dogsquat is so charming she freezes up and chokes.

    It seems reasonable to me—not pathological—to operate more optimistically. Approach, unless given clear, consistent signals that one is unwelcome.

    But I can see your point that if Dogsquat always assumes it’s never him, then there could be a problem.

    “…I don’t understand your making an important distinction between “frame” and “mindset”; I always thought that the PUA meaning of the first is basically synonymous with the common meaning of the second.”

    I may not be using the terms in the same way as they do in the official PUA playbook. I’m basically saying that mindset is a positive belief, and frame is a tactic—fake the behavior until one believes.

  135. Lathe, I certainly didn’t mean for you to feel so threatened. It is apparent that our communication styles are too different for any good to come from further conversation.

    Have a good day, and good luck with the ladies (if you need it, that is – you might be rolling in it, as you say).

  136. Lathe of Heaven

    Anonymous Reader: “So, Lathe, when are you going to answer me?”

    Do you mean, when am I going to provide another helping of fodder, which the assembled can use to yet again lecture me on how naive and misguided I am? about how you-all used to be stupid and benighted like me, but have now risen to a superior plane of understanding? and yet are still so generous! as to reach down (literally: condescend) and offer help to the unenlightened?

    Yeah, I’ll get right on that. First thing, you betcha.

  137. Lathe of Heaven

    Dogsquat: “Lathe, I certainly didn’t mean for you to feel so threatened.”

    (Ah, the classic non-apology apology.)

    So, it never occurred to you, in your now elevated wisdom, that when you write advice like this:

    Bring something into this world that has not been there before – create it. It can be art, or value, or music, or knowledge, or a company.

    Work at it. Be persistent at it. Get good at it. Master it. People will begin to respect you for it.

    you are in effect saying/presuming that, in fact, the listener has never done anything like that? It doesn’t occur to you, that you’re telling your listener that you believe he, in fact, is not currently bringing anything new of value into this world? that he’s not already working, persisting and might already have mastered a thing or two? (since, of course, the advice would otherwise be meaningless.) Is it not plainly obvious to you, that this kind of statement is condescending and insulting?

    If you didn’t mean to be insulting and threatening, then you have a very strange way of showing it.

  138. Lathe of Heaven

    Bb, regarding your personal testimony:

    I can say for me, when a man approached, I didn’t necessarily feel pain or feel unwelcoming. If he was open and friendly, I didn’t mind. If he was furtive, anxious and aggressive, I did. It really depended on the attitude of his approach. Also: context. Alone walking at night? Not a great idea. In a well lit-area with a good group of people, completely amenable.

    I see that you’ve left some truck-sized holes open for subjective rationalization. Roissy teaches us, that women (in general, not necessarily yourself) are highly resistant to admitting consciously what it is that attracts them to a man (social dominance, in PUA theory); and so when they are attracted, they’ll rationalize (that is, gin up) the attraction as centering on some other quality, ie he’s “cute”. This theory is strongly supported by the fact, that so much of what women describe as being attractive in the man they currently desire is utterly vague and completely subjective, e.g. “he’s charming” or “he’s got that certain something” or “I like the way he moves”, etc.

    It didn’t suit Roissy’s purposes to describe it, but we may presume that the same thing works in reverse: when a woman is unattracted to a man for reasons she either doesn’t consciously understand, or would rather not consciously admit (e.g. he lacks social dominance, according to PUA’s), then she will, likely as not, rationalize and latch on to some simple, observable quality, that can be more respectably objected to. These can be somewhat well-defined, e.g. “he’s too short/dresses poorly”, or again completely vague and subjective, e.g. “he tried too hard/his attitude was creepy”.

    I want to make clear, that I have no reason or basis to accuse you in particular of this kind of equivocation. However, I am pointing out that your writing leaves you wide open to the accusation. So, you feel that a man being “friendly and open” will not cause you to feel pained or unwelcoming, while him being “furtive or anxious” might well do so. But, is it not clear that these terms are, really, highly subjective? One man’s “friendly and open” is some woman’s “intrusive and overly-familiar”, and there’s no way to state objectively that one or the other is right or wrong.

    A woman who’s written what you’ve written here could easily be attaching the label “friendly and open” to a man she finds attractive for completely other reasons, while attaching the label “furtive and anxious” to a man she finds unattractive, even though the two men did exactly the same thing in their approach. What this boils down to, is that men who are generally attractive will more likely have their advances welcomed, regardless of what they actually do on approach; while men who are generally unattractive will likely have their advances seen as unwelcome intrusions no matter what they do; attaching the behavioral labels is largely a post-hoc rationalization.

    You also mentioned context, which is another whole huge, fertile field for post-hoc rationalizations. When the dweeby guy tries to chat up the girl in the next cubical, she says “Work is not the place to ask people out!”, while all the while she is secretly hoping that the hunky business manager will do exactly that.

  139. Bb

    Lathe,

    Yes, it’s true that my own experience is subjective, but I don’t think it’s germane to the point I was making. Let me clarify a bit: I never felt pain when a man approached me, and I usually did not act unwelcoming.

    Other women could be different. I can’t speak for them, of course. I assume you have some experience or data from other women that formed your belief.

  140. Anonymous Reader

    Do you mean, when am I going to provide another helping of fodder, which the assembled can use to yet again lecture me on how naive and misguided I am? about how you-all used to be stupid and benighted like me, but have now risen to a superior plane of understanding? and yet are still so generous! as to reach down (literally: condescend) and offer help to the unenlightened?

    No. To all of the question marks.

    Yeah, I’ll get right on that. First thing, you betcha.

    You believe a certain thing to be true regarding men, women and interactions between them. It has been explicated clearly.

    Why do you believe that to be true? What reality-based evidence do you have for this belief?

    If your belief is truly reality based, it should be easy to answer my questions.

  141. Lathe said:

    (Ah, the classic non-apology apology.)

    _________

    I’m not offering you an apology. You don’t rate one from me. If I apologize to you, you’ll know it.

    Lathe said:

    you are in effect saying/presuming that, in fact, the listener has never done anything like that? It doesn’t occur to you, that you’re telling your listener that you believe he, in fact, is not currently bringing anything new of value into this world?

    _____________

    That’s your take on what I said. Earlier you asked how to be confident. I answered. All the insults you presumed live in your head.

    Lathe said:

    If you didn’t mean to be insulting and threatening, then you have a very strange way of showing it.
    _____________

    I get the sense you’re trying very hard to be an aggrieved party.

    There are a bunch of people answering your questions. They are trying to help you. It’s obvious you don’t like what they’re saying. Rather than address the information on it’s merits, you’re acting in a petulant manner.

    There is no honor in making yourself a victim.

  142. Lathe,

    I’m not quite sure where this discussion went off the rails, but I can’t be surprised it’s gone where it has. You came in here saying that approaching women caused women pain, and while it is understandable you don’t want to spread discomfort in your life, assuming that cold approaches cause pain is an extreme take on the issue. You then delivered a passive-aggressive collective insult to the readership.

    Please stick around, but let it be known that people who take easy offense at others’ comments don’t find a lot of fun here.

    The dogsquat attitude you dislike is what Roissy and other gamers call “irrational confidence.” It is not at all the same as narcissism, it is simply a preferential frame of confidence and that you add to, rather than take away from, a social situation.

    To answer your original query, I am much less concerned with my impact on who I am approaching than I am with my own outcome. The source of my, and probably most other men’s, approach anxiety is that I don’t want to be thought a fool, get rejected, or get rejected in public.

    “The unfortunate truth is that most women do not want most of the approaches they receive, and would most often really rather the man hadn’t done that. Does anyone disagree with this statement, as a description of American reality?”

    I disagree with this statement. While some women get sour at anybody talking to them, I’ve heard far more complaints from women about being ogled (or groped) than about being approached for conversation. In fact, even when not interested, I know a lot of women get a kick out of being approached because it indicates their on-the-street attractiveness to men with social agency (guys without guts don’t approach). I would say they aren’t interested in most men who approach them, but that doesn’t mean they would rather not be approached.

    As 108spirits says:

    “I’ve done a bazillion cold approaches but only managed to really piss off a princess once.”

    I am reading Roosh’s new book and it in he computed a 1.4% chance of a guy actually getting aggressively blown out of a day-game approach. Even when you account for women who are bothered by an approach but are polite enough to not tell a guy off, it implies that a large number of women are not all that bothered by approaches.

    Honest to God, women don’t dress up and go out in public places to not get talked to by men.

    interestingly, I hear the biggest complaints about cold approaches from overweight and homely girls. “Ohhh my God, what a creep!” No lie.
    We complain about hot bitchy girls around the Manosphere, but lots of pretty girls are quite nice, even if they aren’t romantically interested in a certain man who is approaching them. One theory is that people are nice to pretty people, so they learn to be nice by example.

  143. Bb,

    “That’s the introvert talking, yes? I know that type of guy well. Perhaps a good solution to that is the charming/funny comment in passing, so you don’t get stuck in a convo.”

    Without a doubt. My life has improved since my “coming out” as an introvert. I now know that it’s OK if I need a break to recharge, and I have to explain to my girlfriends that sometimes I just need to be alone or I’ll go crazy.

    Introverts can do well in the game if they can cultivate a strong-silent type demeanor and set up their own conversation as something a woman has to qualify herself to get.

    Mike at Crime & Federalism posted on this:

    http://www.crimeandfederalism.com/2011/08/dating-for-introverts.html

    OTC,

    “AR: Maybe SW’s post is a bit of a tangent to the topic and oddly placed, but I don’t see her likening any undesired approach to assault — instead questioning at what point where should a guy GTFO.”

    I think we got two subthreads crossed up – Lathe’s idea that approaches cause pain and SayWhaat’s on how to flush a clinger – so SW’s question took on more contextual weight than she intended.

  144. Bb

    “Introverts can do well in the game if they can cultivate a strong-silent type demeanor and set up their own conversation as something a woman has to qualify herself to get.”

    Yep, that played a big part of reeling me in.

    I’d forgotten about Mike’s post. I’ll add it to my introvert/extrovert series.

  145. 108spirits

    Male introverts actually have a huge advantage in the Game that they often don’t know: they can shut the fuck up. Most of the time, a guy fucks up with a chick because he talks too much and gets in his own way.

  146. Bb

    @108, yes, and IME male introverts seem to be actually listening. (Who knows if they really are ;) )

  147. “male introverts seem to be actually listening. (Who knows if they really are)”

    Confession: I used to be that guy who was not listening. My mind wandered to other things of importance. A key part of my dramatically improved comfort game has been mindfulness, including paying attention to what the other person was saying. I also noticed a verbal tic I would utter which (although few knew it but me) indicated that I hadn’t really been listening to what someone was saying. I focused on eliminating that tic, which had the follow-through effect of making me listen more.

    Also, my last girlfriend complimented me thusly: “you’re not like any other guy in that when I come to you with a problem, you understand that I just want to vent about it, not have you solve it.”

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/living-young-grok-mindfulness/

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/room-to-breathe/

  148. anon

    Lathe,

    I came to the midway point of this thread from bb’s blog. Reading down (and up, a bit) makes me curious: What do you want to get out of this (virtual) conversation?

    I mean: you discuss your pretty negative view of male/female interactions, from your first-person male’s point of view. One that doesn’t seem to make you happy and fulfilled. Stated differently, your perspective leads you to write comments that communicate your dissatisfaction with your status quo.

    So Dogsquat’s (and others’) suggestions follow pretty naturally from that opener. Heck, I won’t be taking on a weekend shift at a local drinking spot any time soon, but I was intrigued to think about the idea. Dogsquat’s reasoning was clear and he seems to write out of kindness.

    Now I know that you really, really don’t want advice from pseudonymous strangers on comments threads. No worries: but what are you looking for?

    – mgwk (an older married guy, for context)

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  151. Deepcov3r

    It’s like, umm, the order of universe that males have to approach females. It doesn’t matter if they don’t like it.

    If men don’t like it, they can go out and make enough money to hire women and then the men don’t have to approach.

    If the women don’t like it, they can hire security and limos and not be accessible to those proles who might approach then they don’t want it.

    It costs money to alter the fundamental nature of the universe even temporarily.

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