Approaching is 95% Perspiration

I’ve written on openers before and it really bears repeating that the secret to approaching is really to just approach. In one of his writings I can’t even hope to look up right now, Roosh made the point that a woman will rarely if ever remember the opener itself, especially if it is followed up by an interesting conversation.

Think about how many people you know that you have no idea how you actually met them. Can you recall the exact first words you had with somebody? I don’t for most of my friends.

Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that the words you use have to somehow rationally convince her she should talk to you. The really important part of opening is that you are initiating conversation. Non-verbal cues like how you dress, how you walk and how you look her in the eye have already made her hindbrain’s decision as to whether she wants to respond to you.

It’s also easy to psych yourself out by trying to assemble an entire verbal invasion force, planning the course of the entire conversation before you open your mouth. You’ll never approach if you insist on all of this. The conversation will go places you can’t plan anyway.

There have been a couple of great posts recently on this issue:

Mike at Crime & Federalism says that men have lost their gameness and are taking rejection too personally because of it, and offers his dog as a role model.

Kane (welcome to the blogroll) says that the first secret to meeting women is to “talk to them!”

GIRLS CAN APPROACH TOO

Young women, many of would do well to throw away your own approach anxiety. You will absolutely get better results with men if you are comfortable doing some approaching yourself.

I understand many/most women don’t want to be seen as overly forward, but women can get away with much more subtle openers, like environmental observations or comments said to nobody in particular (“the line is long tonight” or “it’s really hot outside”). There’s also eye contact, smiling or body proximity.

Guys should take a woman saying anything to him or to the wind as an IOI and follow up with something interesting; if she responds to it with gusto, keep talking to her. If she demurs, she was just being polite.

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18 Comments

Filed under beta guide, dating and field game, girl guide

18 responses to “Approaching is 95% Perspiration

  1. johnnymilfquest

    I don’t think that men have issues with talking to pretty girls so much as they do with:

    1. Deception.

    “Its not called ‘lying’. Its called ‘flirting’.” – Neil Strauss

    2. Indirectness.

    Talking about the weather, something she is wearing, what she is doing, something random or curious in the immediate environment but NOT saying:

    “Excuse me. You pass my personal boner test. Can we have sex?”

    Because that kind of directness doesn’t work.

    3. Ambiguity.

    Women love ambiguity. Double meanings. Triple meanings. Something that can be taken in ten different ways or have a hidden subtext.

    Men hate ambiguity. We want people to mean what they say, say what they mean, spell things out, clarify the subject matter and clear up the confusion.

  2. Pingback: Deception, Indirectness, Ambiguity « Johnny Milfquest's Horn of Plenty

  3. The conversation will go places you can’t plan anyway.

    This is the biggest problem with scripted approaches. They always fail after the first line or two because you cannot anticipate how the other person responds. When a guy rehearses a line, especially if it’s cocky funny, he’d better be prepared to volley.

    I don’t think women care about clever openers or one liners. Come up with any excuse at all to talk to us and we’ll respond if we’re polite, with enthusiasm if we’re interested.

    Re women approaching, yes! I think women could open things up quite a bit for themselves if they would only take this on. It’s a tough sell, though, partly because non-promiscuous women fear that it sends the wrong message. They’re probably right about that, at least in a bar.

  4. Johnny,

    “I don’t think that men have issues with talking to pretty girls so much as they do with [indirect communication]”

    You make good points in your comment, but I don’t concur with your premise – men as a whole have issues talking to pretty girls, in addition to having issues talking in a way that is interesting to women. Approach anxiety is not a canard.

  5. 108spirits

    Scripted approaches are bad, but structured approaches are crucial to success. Men need a good structured approach to close the deal, because that’s what counts in the end. If your approach has no structure and you’re just “going with the flow”, unless you’re a natural, you’re gonna flop badly and have a terrible hit rate.

    “Re women approaching, yes! I think women could open things up quite a bit for themselves if they would only take this on. It’s a tough sell, though, partly because non-promiscuous women fear that it sends the wrong message. They’re probably right about that, at least in a bar.”

    Just talk to the guy, make some small talk and invite him over to join you and your friends for a drink or something simple. No sane man is going to think you’re a slut for doing that. Once you’ve done that bit, the man can pick it up from there.

    Funny that women are quick to think they’d appear promiscuous for merely talking to a man first, but they think nothing of dressing like a hooker when going out or openly talking about their weekend sexual escapades in public (overheard this in broad daylight walking down the street to get lunch today).

    The biggest complain men have of modern women is their entitlement attitude, that they always just sit there expecting men to do everything. Being a little bit proactive will set you far apart from your competition.

  6. Susan,

    “I don’t think women care about clever openers or one liners. Come up with any excuse at all to talk to us and we’ll respond if we’re polite, with enthusiasm if we’re interested.”

    It’s a classic example of if you’re attractive, women will find anything you say interesting and funny.

    Openers can double as other elements of conversation, like negs, rapport or DHV. That’s what’s behind “that hairdo will attract the wrong guys” (neg) or “I need a female opinion on something” (connection). But I prefer the opener-only lines, because they are much easier to remember and say, and you’ll know within five seconds if the woman is interested and you can keep talking or move on. And a hybrid opener can take away a future opportunity – like swinging at a bad pitch instead of waiting for a good one. Even a couple of sentences from a woman can help you craft a much better DHV or emotional connection.

    Guys get approach anxiety about whether they should approach, then they get opener anxiety about what they should say. A complex opener can reflect pedestalization and try-hard – “I have to be really impressive from the word go to get her to talk to me.” Just talk to her. You don’t sink or swim from the opener, if it “works” it’s because she wants to talk to you.

    “Re women approaching, yes! I think women could open things up quite a bit for themselves if they would only take this on. It’s a tough sell, though, partly because non-promiscuous women fear that it sends the wrong message. They’re probably right about that, at least in a bar.”

    Not really – again, people don’t really remember how they started out talking to someone. Unless a woman puts on a big memorable show as an approach like a French kiss, they’ll probably both forget who approached whom. Most of the objection I hear is pure rationalization – they don’t want to risk rejection (welcome to my world), so they come up with a story about how it’s a man’s job to approach, or they don’t want to look slutty or whatever. Let’s be honest, a significant subset of non-promiscuous women are not comfortable with men, which explains their dearth of sexual experience of any type (same can be said for beta guys), and their hamsters are going to tell them anything to convince them why they shouldn’t approach guys. Again, just open your mouth and talk to him and let the conversation flow from there.

  7. 108spirits,

    Could you elaborate on what you mean by “structured approach”?

  8. 108spirits

    Think Mystery Method for an example of a structured approach i.e Game Plan. The point of an approach is to get the girl somewhere closer to your goal with her (date, sex & possible relationship). For that to happen, you need to clearly have a beginning, a middle and an end game. Most guys think approach equals openers followed by some stupid chit chat (where negs, C&F and other crap come in). Then when the conversation inevitably fizzles out (because they don’t have an end game) they go for a number and wonder why the girls flake afterwards. They don’t have any planning for logistics and closing, and that’s where their approaches fail.

    A good structured approach is something like decent opener, followed by comfort & rapport building where you get her to invest in you and the interaction (e.g sharing personal stories, connecting emotionally, making her need something from you) then closing the deal (I’ll leave this one open to interpretation & personal goals). The whole approach should be underlined by excellent logistical planning – this is in fact the major difference between the guys who close the deal and the guys who can’t.

  9. i’ve honestly gotten tired of telling guys to just say ANYTHING. “hey, thats a pretty intereseting color you choose” (in regards to a dress, hair clip, eye shadow, WHATEVER). it just doesn’t matter. i’ve NEVER had a woman send back a snide/rude comment. if she just smiles, i’ll send one more volley her way, if she doesn’t respond…….time to punch out.

    was that REALLY that painful?

    hell, i’ve had female friends tell me they kind of like when a guy seems nervous, then they know he’s genuine. they know we get nervous with approaches. if you’re all super cool…..they may take you for a player.

    if you open and she’s cool and keeps up the conversation, just escalate and mention you’d like to talk to her later and ask for her number. either you’ll get it or you won’t….if you don’t SO WHAT. i don’t know Bager, i just can’t understand the intimidation factor with simply talking to another person. and trust me….if i’m really smitten, i totally get tounge tied. but i don’t care….i’m getting in there and giving it a shot. guys need to sack up and do something. if they don’t…quit bitching and go watch the oxygen channel.

  10. johnnymilfquest

    Badger wrote:

    “Approach anxiety is not a canard.”

    I didn’t say that it was. I said that the anxiety is a symptom of something else.

    Let’s say that a pretty woman has a flat tire on her car. I ask my friend Bill to go and tell the pretty woman that she has a flat.

    Does Bill get anxious about that?

    Of course not. Even if she is irritated about having a flat, its not a complicated conversation with many layers of meaning, equivocation and qualification.

    But tell Bill to go and express a sexual or romantic interest in the pretty woman WITHOUT being explicit and suddenly he gets very anxious.

    “WTF am I supposed to say?”
    “My mind is a blank!”
    “What if she doesn’t like me?”

    etc. etc.

  11. Thanks for the link love.

    The girls who’ve approached me have usually been much hotter than average. Maybe hot girls are less afraid of rejection because they know it’s unlikely.

  12. Time for a sports analogy.

    Consider the approach and initial interaction with a woman in the context of Game as a basketball game. There are few structured plays (as in football), the players do have certain types of pre-defined offensive and defensive tactics and employ them based on how the game is going at the time and whom they are playing against. Changing tactics happens quickly based on the ebb and flow of the game.

    I believe that too many guys are thinking that Game is more like football (American style, Johnny, you git) with narrow and rigid pre-determined plays that must be followed to perfection in order to score. Flexibility is limited.

  13. Stephenie Rowling

    “hell, i’ve had female friends tell me they kind of like when a guy seems nervous, then they know he’s genuine. they know we get nervous with approaches. if you’re all super cool…..they may take you for a player.”

    I actually appreciated and found endearing a bit of nervous behaviour one of my players tells if “the guy walks and talks like he owns the room” that is usually a sign of bed notches in his forehead. Only really experienced men can talk to a woman without a hint of insecurity. But then I never considered experience with the opposite gender a particularly good trait.

  14. the secret to riding a bike is — just get on and ride it.

    but try that twenty times with twenty kids, and maybe some of the get it, but others fall down — HARD. and then they don’t want to try it again. they get scared. and then it gets worse.

    that is because “just get on and ride it” really means:

    1. keep your balance
    2. don’t LOSE your balance
    3. don’t like sideways, look straight ahead
    4. DON’T GET NERVOUS OR SCARED
    5. keep on pedaling
    6. steer straight
    7. avoid things, don’t run into things
    8. don’t look down
    9. and KEEP YOUR BALANCE EVEN AS YOU SPEED UP AND THE SITUATION GETS MORE “PERILOUS”

    no surprise, then, that some genius invented TRAINING WHEELS.

  15. Pingback: Game as training wheels « Chasing Greatness

  16. 108spirits,

    “The point of an approach is to get the girl somewhere closer to your goal with her (date, sex & possible relationship).”

    I see now, we’re just using different vocabulary – for me, approach=opening, the rest of the time is “in the set” or some term like that.

    “They don’t have any planning for logistics and closing, and that’s where their approaches fail.”

    The single biggest benefit to learning game for me was logistics – managing the flow of a conversation, moving between attraction and comfort tools, physically moving the members of the set around, and how to close effectively.

    danny,

    “i don’t know Bager,”

    What is a bager? A bagel baker?

    “i just can’t understand the intimidation factor with simply talking to another person”

    As a recovering shy guy, I can understand it firsthand. People are different like this. Approach anxiety is real and tough; guys who are hamstrung should try to approach 2, 3, 5, 10 women per day, daily for a month or so. You’ll start to realize that (a) there’s nothing to be afraid of, and (b) if you get blown out, there’s another woman you can approach.

  17. Badger-
    “What is a bager? A bagel baker?”
    hardee har har. lol.

    i understand what you’re saying, like i said, of course i get nervous when approaching a girl (posted about it earlier), especially when i’m very attracted to her. personally, if something is scary to me, i make it a habit of facing it head-on.

    but to me, part of being a man is facing your fears, getting out of your comfort zone. even if you fail, there’s a victory in knowing that you played a hand. TRYING always trumps no efffort. it’s amazing to me that men will excersize “trying” with many aspects of their lives, but with women…..they freeze.

  18. Pingback: The #1 Game Question for Guys | The Badger Hut

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