Dear Badger: Filling In For Susan Walsh

My pal Susan Walsh is on vacation, and to give her a breather I’ve taken on a couple of recent calls for help left on one of her old but oft-commented pages where readers tend to chime in with problems.

DATING HOUDINI

“on again, off again” writes:

Need some insight… Was dating a guy and everything was going great, met his friends, he told his family about us, all signs were pointing to serious relationship… then he disappears. I was pissed and I let him know. Didn’t talk to him for a month and then he got up the nerve to apologize for being a dick. Amazing. Anyway, since then we’ve just hooked up. Twice. The second time he tells me he’s confused and doesn’t want this to be just a “hook up”. I basically said, “Duh, me either!” We talked about how much we like each other, blah, blah, blah. He called me the next day to hang out but I already had plans… same thing happened the following day. It was 4th of July weekend – I have a life. I tried to get ahold of him twice after the weekend – no response. It’s been 2 weeks and I haven’t heard anything from him. I guess he changed his mind??? Maybe he’s mad that I didn’t ditch my plans? I really want to call him and ask what the hell is going on, but I don’t want to look like a loser that couldn’t take the hint. Maybe he just needed to get laid… but why all the talk?

Several things are going on here, some of which concern you directly and some that serve as teaching moments for others.

First off, disappearing for a month after seriously building towards relationship status is strange behavior, so you may simply be dealing with an erratic dude (more on that below). You can’t control that. What you can control is the terms under which you interact with him. When he decided to return he did the best thing possible, which is to apologize for leaving you in the lurch; at that point, it’s totally fine for you to make it clear what you expect as the relationship re-starts. That you say you have “just hooked up” since then suggests you didn’t discuss this before hopping back in the sack – which communicates to him that you are satisfied with an uncommitted, sexually peripatetic relationship.

Most men tend to respond to the expectations put in front of them, so you have a lot more to gain than to lose by initiating a DTR (define-the-relationship) talk at that point. Also consider that a lot of guys have been burned asking for commitment too early themselves, so some men let the woman bring it up as a self-protection strategy…if she never does, they both lose what they want.

PURSUIT IS A TWO-WAY STREET

He called me the next day to hang out but I already had plans… same thing happened the following day. It was 4th of July weekend – I have a life.

I think what may have been salvageable probably died at this point. The man called you twice over a holiday weekend trying to spend time with you. Unless you went out of town, there had to be some free hours somewhere in there. This is a critical point to meet him halfway. Your response was apparently simply, “sorry, I’m busy,” with no suggestion of an alternate time or place. Now perhaps you wanted him to grovel and continue to pursue as a sort of penance for his vanishing act, or you didn’t want to look too “available,” but a guy who is experienced with women is going to read a lack of counteroffer as a very strong signal of rejection.

This is as universal a game lesson as we can give to other guys: “if she says she’s busy and doesn’t offer another time she’s free, she’s not interested. Move on.” We know this from our own experience – a woman that wants to spend time with a man she’s attracted to will go far to do it. She’ll go in late to work, or get off early. She’ll cancel plans with BFFs. She’ll move dates with other guys (a key signal to dudes that you may not be her first choice.) Or she’ll simply steer you to a time on her calendar when she’s free – “I can’t do Tuesday, but how about Thursday?” Meanwhile a woman rejecting us will come up with all number of incredulous reasons, or none at all – “sorry, I’m busy on Wednesday.”

I don’t think he’s upset you didn’t ditch your plans – I think he just feels rejected and is taking a hint you may not have intended to send. You’ve reached out to him twice since then, which means the ball is back in his court. If he’s not contacting you he’s probably moved on, and in any case I think both of you have spent enough energy on this thing that’s not really getting off the ground. If he tries to come back into your sphere again it’s best for the both of you if you were to politely decline.

Let’s recap the lessons:

1. If you want to have a relationship, you need to articulate that expectation to your partner when the time is right.

2. When a man you like asks to spend time with you, it is as much your job as his to make it happen. It is not his job to play the Roulette wheel of pursuit until he magically hits the date and time you happen to be available.

HE’S JUST NOT THAT INTO ANYBODY

As to why this dude went silent for a month, I can’t say for certain but I’d like to bring up a phenomenon women need to be aware of: guys who are not that interested in relationships at all. I’m not talking about players, who compulsively seek sexual variety, or commitment-phobic men who are averse to LTR opportunity costs (and of which there are fewer than women believe).

A lot of women would be surprised by the degree to which a subset of men are just not really interested in women personally. They don’t have “commitment” issues, they’re not misogynists, they’re not Peter Pans, they’re just not that interested in female companionship and for the most part they never will be. There’s nothing hostile about it…they just find the whole thing kind of boring and unrewarding. Sometimes they are highly attractive guys who have grown numb to the ubiquitous interest of women they don’t find interesting themselves. They might go through the motions of dating to get laid, but even that is not really on the radar screen for some of these types.

Every guy has probably had a friend like this. He comes over on Friday and between cold ones you ask “hey, what happened with Sasha last weekend?”

“Oh her? Yeah, we banged.”

“And?”

[nonplussed] “It was pretty hot.”

[confused] “Sooo, are you going to go out again or what? Sounds like she’s pretty into you.”

“Dunno. I’m just kinda bored by the whole thing. Deal the next hand, brah.”

Of course, because they have intrinsic aloof game, these types usually have a couple of female orbiters at any time who are working for a crack at him. They’re sometimes flat-out irritated by the attention, meanwhile the rest of us guys can’t believe their good fortune.

LISTEN TO THE MAN

Ellie writes:

Hi Susan,

I am so glad I found your site. I have been “hanging out” with this guy lately that I am crazy about. I met him almost a year ago and he liked me right from the start, but unfortunately I was still not over another guy. We dated and he asked me out and I turned him down. Then I changed my mind and we went out but I was honestly not ready. Then I went on tour for a month and we broke up a week after I got back. So the whole relationship was kinda not there, it was a mutual break up, even though I was really sad about it, and really liked him by that time. The whole thing just seemed like a false start. Now, many month later, we have been hanging out regularly as friends. At first in a group but for over a month now it’s almost always just me and him. We go to dinner and movies and other special things that only we like to do. A month ago he asked me if I wanted to be “friends with benefits” I told him I didn’t want if it wasn’t going to mean anything more than that to him. I was worried he would stop hanging out with me when I gave him that answer … but if anything, he has been more caring and thoughtful since that happened. He is REALLY bad at talking about anything serious, not even just relationship stuff. All his friends know this about him, he is far worse than the average guy in that department. So that is why I haven’t talked to him. He is however a very good guy and person, has very good values and not the type that would ever cheat or lie. Just a couple days ago our “relationship” became more sexual … I am wondering if this is a sign that I could mean more to him, since I said before I didn’t want a sexual relationship unless it meant more to him. We haven’t had sex yet, but I am wondering if we should or if that would be a bad move.

BLUF: It would be an incredibly bad move, because he has clearly communicated that you are not going to get what you want.

First, I understand how in love you are, most of us have been there. But it’s a bad idea to get into a relationship with someone who is “REALLY bad at talking about anything serious.” That reflects either a communication deficiency or a habitual lack of attention to long-term planning.

Secondly, there is no reason to believe he wants to be your boyfriend, whether or not he has sex with you. He has clearly articulated what he does want – to hang out with you and to sleep with you, but not be your boyfriend. Sleeping with you fits directly into that plan. There’s nothing boyfriend about being caring and thoughtful; friends do that for each other all the time. (In fact, caring and thoughtful is a way many guys send themselves out of the boyfriend zone.)

This is such a common scenario for young women that it should be in Susan’s FAQ: “He said he didn’t want a relationship, but then we had sex so does that mean he does want a relationship?”

The answer is no. It’s what psychologists call “projection” – assuming motivations for others’ actions that match what your motivations would be were you doing the same actions.

(Public Service Announcement: Don’t sell the guys short, this can happen in the other direction as well – the woman wants some sex because she’s horny or wants validation, the guy wants the full commitment and thinks if she has sex with him that means she wants it too…I know because it happened to me. Guys are sold hard on the “women don’t have sex without commitment” trope despite evidence everywhere that it’s just not true. So of course I thought that her sexual expression reflected an investment. Knowing what I know now, I can easily see that she was not playing for the long term. But enough about me.)

Why you might think that having sex = he wants to be in a relationship is understandable – when you (as a guy or a girl) hang around someone you are crazy about, the rationalization hamster starts to spin like crazy, creating an an alternate reality by reinterpreting everything that happens into a sign that things are going where you want them to.

It’s also understandable why you are loath to bring the issue up – as you said, it’s loss aversion, the fear of getting nothing at all instead of the half of what you want you have now. I am sorry you are so deeply smitten for a guy who doesn’t want everything you do.

But the fact is that he’s been very honest about what he wants; you need to respect him for that by listening to what he is communicating, not presume to read his mind and not create a false expectation that will serve to make you mad at him when it doesn’t come true. You also need to respect yourself by not talking yourself into accepting this halfway-house arrangement you have. It’s hard to hear now, but it’s better for your pride to be without him entirely than to be pining in his presence.

You have set a price, a reasonable one (relationship context) for sex. If you give him sex without him clearly offering you what you want, you have met him at his price point and not yours. This not only denies you what you want, it tells him that your prices are negotiable.

About these ads

41 Comments

Filed under dear badger

41 responses to “Dear Badger: Filling In For Susan Walsh

  1. SayWhaat

    Good responses, Badger. I agree with everything you’ve said here.

  2. Great analysis. You should write these columns regularly.

  3. Bronan,

    Thanks; this is something of a shameless audition for Susan’s proposed panel of experts.

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/07/19/tidbits/taking-care-of-business/

  4. i’d be willing to bet these inquiries are from girls in their early 20’s. if in fact they are older. mjor red flag as far as i’m concerned.

    i’ve told women right to their face i wasn’t interested in being in a relationship, and they still sleep with me, then get pissy, “all we ever do is have sex”.

    uuuuuuuh……yeah. i don’t spend free time with them (unless time involves various stages of undress and making out on my sofa). and they ALWAYS think i could eventually fall into “relationship-land”, and i never do. this has been my biggest experience with single moms. i’m ALWAYS upfront about “not wanting to be in a relationship” and they still sleep with me, i’ve gotten to the point where i don’t even agree to dates with them anymore since sleeping with them leads to a HUGE guilt trip from her end.

    exellant POV on the matter as well. i’d have to concur.

  5. 1lettuce

    Well, can’t really say anything that hasn’t already been said so far: spot on advice, Badger. I can also attest that many guys are sold on the “women don’t have sex without commitment” trope – I’ve fallen for that one a few times in the past.

  6. KK

    “I have been “hanging out” with this guy lately that I am crazy about. We dated and he asked me out and I turned him down. Then I changed my mind and we went out but I was honestly not ready. Then I went on tour for a month and we broke up a week after I got back. Now, many month later, we have been hanging out regularly as friends.”

    What is this I don’t even

    I have difficulties understanding exactly what she’s saying here. Is ‘dating’ something you do at the beginning of a courtship after which you graduate to ‘going out’ status by the ritual of ‘being asked out’? And then after you ‘break up’ such an outgoing relationship, you start ‘hanging out’.

  7. 108spirits

    Sharp insight in the “He’s Not Into Anybody” part. That guy you describe is me, or at least the phase I’m going through. I’d do the minimal to get me some sex to scratch an itch, but women just don’t interest me enough to make me want to play the dating game. Women find this the hardest to understand, that a straight desirable man does not want to pursue any of them for a relationship nor even a date.

  8. spirits,

    Too many of them have been doing a combination of:
    (a) projecting – “it’s not possible he doesn’t want what I want!”
    (b) reading too much Jane Austen – “It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.”

    I was thinking about this today as a matter of fact – I’ve been involved in a community of women who really don’t see men as men as much as means to women’s ends. Everything the man is and does is judged against his value to women. So a socially suave, established man, who is very “useful” to one lucky woman, must be cajoled and shamed into getting hitched. Note the prevalence of terms like “eligible bachelor.” They were obviously very entitled, men existed to serve them.

    Unsurprisingly, I got out of that community.

    Ladies must take heed – you will have a much, much better life with a man who truly wants to be in a LTR, than you will browbeating (or trapping) a reluctant guy into staying with you.

    This is what bothers me most about the “fear of commitment” canard – women are taught that all men have an irrational phobia of relationships. It’s very damaging to think this way because you stop listening to what may be his very sound concerns about proceeding with the relationship — you intentionally avoid validating his feelings, and it damages both his humanity and your couplehood.

    It’s a bit like when your mom made you put on a jacket, and you said “but I’m not cold,” and she dismissed it thinking you just didn’t like wearing the jacket, when in fact you’re really goddamn hot in it.

  9. ps to myself –

    “It’s very damaging to think this way because you stop listening to what may be his very sound concerns ”

    Also damaging because women don’t bother seeking guys who do want relationships because they think none exist. Thus lots of noise in that system.

  10. 108spirits

    Men like me don’t fear commitment (considering the various commitments I’ve made to my career and passions). Women asked me about that a lot, but they mistake “don’t want to commit to you and women like you” with actual fear of commitment. They focus all on the latter and do not listen to, as you put it, men’s very sound concerns about the relationship. I remember voicing such concerns in my previous LTR and my female friends, as well-intentioned as they are, jumped straight on the cold feet / fear of commitment bandwagon.

    Strangely enough, I do want a relationship (tried the casual stuff with good success, it’s not really for me), but the type of women I want a relationship with is a needle in a haystack full of entitled princesses who think men only exist to fulfill their needs. And I have better things to do that rooting around the haystack to find a bloody needle.

    If a woman encounters a lot of men with a “fear of commitment” in her dating, she needs to take a long hard truthful look at what she has to offer a man, other than sex. And she needs to review how much fun a man has pursuing her. Lots of women make the pursuit very frustrating for men, with the only reward being, very likely, average sex at the end (and mediocre companionship that can’t remotely rival male friendship). Once a man has had enough sexual experiences, that time consuming and frustrating pursuit isn’t worth it anymore. In fact, once a man has had regular successes, it becomes down right boring.

    This is just wishful thinking on my behalf anyway, for women want men to bring all the fun & excitement to dating, and they don’t think they have to lift a finger. Because they’re entitled to fun.

  11. “This is just wishful thinking on my behalf anyway, for women want men to bring all the fun & excitement to dating, and they don’t think they have to lift a finger.”

    i have dealt with this A LOT, this mentality torpedo’d my last LTR. she didn’t do it on purpose, she was just inexperienced with men. she was hoping that i was going to propose. after i moved away, she and i had a LONG talk and she FINALLY was able to get my pov.

    on my part….i was the dominant one in the relationship. i “ran the ship” as they say. by the time i decided to end the relationship, i felt more friendship for her than attraction because, while she dead cool as a person….she was a crap girlfriend. i knew what my goals where and her output didn’t follow suit, so i punched out.

    so some of it isn’t really fear of commintment (i posted about this on my site, since i’m told i’m too afraid to commit) as it is…..”where have all the cowgirls gone?” if a woman wants the gift of my commitment, she DAMN WELL needs to EARN it.

  12. candi

    Hello there, I noticed on Susan Walsh’s blog that you said you’d be filling in for her a little while she was on vacation. I just wanted to see what your opinion was. Things have changed a little since I wrote this on July 6th, but I was wondering why I did not get a response from her yet and now I know why. Thanks. it is long, I apologize I just copied it right from where I posted it on her blog before. -Candi it starts here —> Hi Susan, I came across your website/blog and am interested in finding out your opinion on something because I liked your advice/replies to other people seeking your help. Let me start off by saying I am a twenty two year old female, that has only ever been in one serious relationship, or relationship at all really (the one I am going to discuss here). Previously to that I suppose I was naive when it came to guys, made myself to readily available, did not wait as long as I should have to hook up sexually, and so on. About two years ago I met a guy through a mutual friend, she was dating his best friend at the time but they are no longer friends, I am no longer friends with the girl, and my ex boyfriend is no longer friends with girl either. So Not long after I met this guy we hit if off fast. He has a drug problem too which I was not really keen on and did not realize the complications of the problem but it was not really the drugs that ruined the relationship. My ex was very jealous of me, everything that I did. He was a great guy deep down, and always cared for me and would talk to me no matter what about absolutely anything and was sincerely interested, but he was too possessive. My father and stepmother whom I live with liked him very much when they first met him, for about the whole first year we dated (so up until about September of 2010). Then, he relapsed on drugs and went away to a rehab about an hour north of his home (By the way, I live an hour and a half from him as it is so he was about two and a half hours away at this rehab). He only stayed at rehab for a month and a half and I visited him once with his family around Halloween time. I was working at a bakery at the time and brought up halloween cupcakes which I hand decorated, and he loved them so much. When he was away I cried several times, I would lay in bed and smell his clothes which I had at my house and just cry, I truly did love him. Over the past 6-8 months though, I’d say, our relationship has taken a turn for the worst. My father and I got in a fight (he tends to treat me badly sometimes for no apparent reason) and my ex decided he had enough and wrote my father an email letting him know he thought he needed to treat me better. I knew about the email but denied it to my father because I knew he hated my ex and would be very angry. Needless to say my dad was very hurt and pretty much hated my ex even more for that. Ever since then, he has not been allowed near my house, so I have been commuting the hour and a half sometimes more with the traffic to see him about once a week, usually for one to two days at a time. I had a strong bond with his family, his pets, the town and area he lives in, and him of course. But I feel like it has completely faded for the most part. Recently, his friend who I knew from last summer but did not particularly care for at that time came home from school. My ex boyfriend has taken several community college classes but has not worked since the first year we dated and has some problems with motivation. This friend of his comes from a family on the wealthy side (which has nothing to do with the feelings I have) and he has been attending law school. During the past month, the three of us we spending time together more frequently than we did last summer, and my view on him changed, for the better. From the time he met me last summer he asked questions about me, and my ex seemed to try and show me off to him as he was proud of me and since this other guy is not really the womanizer type, my ex felt the need to act a little cocky about having me. But the friend was interested and kept making comments about my attractiveness and then went as far if the three of us could all “hook up” together if you know what I mean, he asked him this last summer, and then I was like definitely no, but than I began having feelings for him and we began discussing it about a little over a month ago, and than a few days ago, it actually happened. It all happened so fast, I never did anything like that before and could not believe it. (For respect for you and your website I will not go into detail and explain to anyone who does not understand what that means). So several weeks before this, I began wanting to see this other guy more than my ex but I could not tell me ex that directly, and the other guy did not want to be sneaky behind my ex’s back either, since they were friends. I recently found out that this other guy has a slight drug problem as well, which hurts and makes me feel ashamed but I could not help the people who I fell for in the past and present. So to wrap this story up, my ex claims that this other guy has bad intentions, would never want anything more serious with me than sex, and is going around telling people about everything. The guy and my ex’s other friend both denied this, but it is hard for me to figure him out. My ex and I are pretty much through, and I am not willing to jump into anything serious right now with anyone either, especially a person with similar drug issues as my ex had. But he is not really going out of his way to talk to me unless I talk to him, but in person he acts really interested in talking to me and what I have to say. It all came on really fast, and he is one person I never in a million years expected to have feelings for. But we do have similar interests and I feel a connection. My ex also says that because I used to not like him last summer (he comes home from school in the summer but the school isn’t that far away) that he has an attitude towards me now in a way that like, you didn’t like me then and now you really like me, so i’ve got the better of you, ha, type of thing. I am having a really hard time reading into all of this and would really appreciate your help. Thanks so much!!!

  13. Susan Walsh needs help?

    I’m in!

    As a fellow of a certain age – probably one of the oldest regular Manosphere bloggers – I can bring some wisdom and maturity based on a few decades of experience on this rock we call Earth. I’ll post this on Susan’s blog, too.

  14. Hi Candi

    This is Private Man, your wise and old uncle on the Interwebs.

    First, 80% of what you wrote is just girl-drama and not really relevant. It is relevant to you because it causes an emotional reaction, I understand it. But fundamentally, it’s just emotional noise.

    Second, Stop calling yourself Candi. That’s a name for girls who get paid in dollar bills inside a garter and late at night. I don’t care what name is on your birth certificate, you’re “Candace” from now own. People will treat you better with a more mature name. People also won’t be looking to stuff dollar bills into your undies, too.

    Third, you fell for a guy while quite young. Being so young, you simply don’t understand your emotions. There is simply way too much extraneous drama with this guy. You gotta lose him. Cut contact. All of it. Move on. You’ll cry and be upset and worry and fret and indulge in all the age-appropriate emotional girl drama. I understand that. Nevermind all that, he’s gone from your life.

    At 22, you have your whole life in front of you.

    General advice for 22 year old girls with their whole lives in front of them:

    1. Maintain your femininity – looks, behavior, attitude, all of it. This doesn’t mean being weak.

    2. Enter relationships very, very carefully. You will likely have at least two more “serious” relationships before wedded bliss. This means being very cautious about having sex with guys.

    3. Work on understanding men and having real respect for masculinity.

    4. Understand that what men value in women is very different than what women value in men.

    5. Stop thinking about yourself all the time. As an exercise, describe someone or something else without using any first person pronouns (me, myself, I, mine, we, our, ours, etc.)

    6. Avoid relationship advice from girlfriends. If you want honest advice, talk to men who don’t want to have sex with you.

    7. Maintain your femininity (had to say it twice).

    8. If you want to further your education and enter the workforce, go for it. Just don’t become a bossy and domineering career woman outside of the workplace.

    9. Avoid emotional pornography which only gives your false expectations of romance and relationships.

    10. Learn emotional control. Lack of emotional control is the realm of children, not adults.

    You’re welcome.

  15. candi-

    “drugs”
    major red flag

    “My ex was very jealous of me, everything that I did. He was a great gut deep down, and always cared for me and would talk to me no matter what about absolutely anything and was sincerely interested, but he was too possessive.”
    red flag #2

    this story is so chock full of “girl drama” that my head’s spinning. but, #1, have a sense of self worth. this is true for men and women. #2 avoid relationships with men who have chemical addictions and/or who are overly possessive. you are not a possession and you shouldn’t come second to a substance. period.

    i also agree with what privateman said. you will most likely have 1-2 more serious relationships before being married, i know b/c i went through this wih a relatively inexperienced ex. she ended up marrying her next bf (after realizing i had moved on….she cranked up the seriousness with him).

    best of luck to you candi.

  16. candi

    to theprivateman, thanks for your advice but I feel kind of insulted. my name isn’t really candi first off, that’s my cat’s name, but i’m not going to put my real name anywhere on a blog like this online and I just thought of that. but I appreciate your advice. I usually am not involved in this kind of drama, and I never was with someone with a drug problem before so it was all really new to me. thanks.

  17. candi

    dannyfrom504, thanks I appreciate your advice. I know that drug addiction or any addiction at all really is a red flag, but when you have been attached to someone for 2 and a half years and it being your first real relationship it makes it a lot harder to just kick them to the curb so to speak. and the possessiveness has always been a problem so you’re right about that. Thanks.

  18. Candi –

    You’re getting Manosphere advice, the most accurate and honest advice you will ever get. Don’t be insulted, be grateful.

  19. jlw

    “… guys who are not that interested in relationships at all.”

    This is an excellent place to be for MGTOW/Ghost omegas, and in that case, it’s a win-win because the women aren’t losing out because these guys are off the table anyway.

  20. candi-
    “You’re getting Manosphere advice, the most accurate and honest advice you will ever get. Don’t be insulted, be grateful.”

    VERY TRUE. we men tend to be more direct and honest (especially in the advice dept.). no one in this little corner of the interwebz is looking to insult or degrade you. and Privateman is a well-known proffesor of “mano-sphere knowledge” who’s a very straight shooter. he’s not looking to “insult you”. as he stated, this is this some of the best (free) advice you’ll probably recieve. the name thing was good natured ribbing i believe. i understand what he was saying in the “name” thing, but you may not. but yes…..candice is a much more respectful girl name than “candi”. lol.

    don’t take any of this personal, you’re among men……we tend to bust balls. it’s nothing to take to heart, just laugh it off. and take our advice, or don’t .

    totally up to you.

  21. Looking Glass

    @ Candi:

    This chunk of the internet is very, very honest. It’s also filled with people very experienced in dealing with relationships and the interactions. So, no one means you ill, even if the reality can be rough.

    I’ll take the other side of the story you gave, explaining what is going on, more a more subconscious level.

    – The “law school guy” doesn’t want a relationship. He just wants to have sex with you. When you’re around, he knows he can cajole you into it. Men can do subtlety, but they really do confused intentions. You’re, to him, only about getting some nookie at that point.

    – By accepting a threesome, your ex-boyfriend has demonstrated that the “law school guy” is a “higher status male”, comparatively. It doesn’t matter how good or bad the sex was or your previous feelings for either man. By sacrificing his exclusive sexual relationship with you, he’s shown that he’s willing to “share” what should be only his, when pushed. This is a sign of “low status”, which is exactly why you now have feelings for the “law school guy”. To your natural instincts, “law school guy” is now a stronger man. (Think of it like how men react instinctively to a hot woman, these aren’t thought out attractions, they’re just reactions to stimuli)

    – You have selected for a group of people with drug issues. You need to understand why you’ve done that. It’s likely not intentional, either, but some part of you is either attracted to it or you don’t notice the red flag.

    You’re 22 and have some time, the trick is to just not be naive and waste time on relationships that won’t work.

  22. Looking Glass

    Wow, did I ever flop the editing on that last post.

    “explaining what is going on, more a more subconscious level.”
    “explaining what is going on, at a more subconscious level.”

    “Men can do subtlety, but they really do confused intentions”
    “Men can do subtlety, but they really doN’T do confused intentions”

    Sorry about that.

  23. johnnymilfquest

    “…my name isn’t really candi first off, that’s my cat’s name, but i’m not going to put my real name anywhere on a blog like this online”

    Just don’t let anyone stuff dollar bills into your cats undies.

  24. 108spirits

    Some girls just can’t get enough of trying to fix drug addicts, even though they might be normal run-of-the-mill girls from decent families who don’t do drugs themselves. Not just any drug addict, it has to be the one who’s so fucked up that they can’t hold a job at all to save their arses and the only future they have is in some street corner or a trailer park. My high school GF is one of those. She LJBFed me to “save” some drug-fucked bugger. That was entertaining.

    Here’s news: you can’t save them, girl. If you’re a crackhead yourself, you two will live happily ever after, but if you’re not, don’t even try. If you find yourself dumping one to go for another of the same type, slap yourself silly with a dead wet fish and just stay away from men, dating and sex for a while.

  25. johnnymilfquest

    108 spirits wrote:

    “Not just any drug addict, it has to be the one who’s so fucked up that they can’t hold a job at all to save their arses and the only future they have is in some street corner or a trailer park.”

    Forget about losing jobs through substance abuse. Try getting one at all in the current political-economic mess.

    “My high school GF is one of those. She LJBFed me to “save” some drug-fucked bugger. That was entertaining.”

    Well, drug addicts are not obsessed with the girl. They’re obsessed with the drug. Women don’t usually want to be the focus of a man’s life.

    The roller-coaster highs and lows of a male junkie also mirror the emotional states of many women who aren’t on drugs at all.

    Plus some chicks just dig the pale, skinny guys with the hollow cheeks ;-)

  26. Retrenched

    @108, johnny

    Also, a lot of those women like to live vicariously through boyfriends who have lives that are more exciting than their own, so they chase druggies and thugs. Cause stable, dependable, sober and employed men are just so boring, ya know?

  27. blogster

    @ Retrenched

    As dalrock would say, those “loyal, boring dudes”!

    Your comment and those of 108spirits and dannyfrom504 really speak to a core issue which i’ve aways noticed but could never clearly define – women relying on men in their lives to actually PROVIDE their (i.e. the women’s) life. Mildly irritating at first, I now find it a major turn off and one of the first things I assess when meeting a new woman.

    It’s as if women are operating under the unspoken assumption of, “I bring the p$ssy, you bring the fun and excitement”. Translation: i can be passive, you need to constantly work it. It seems to be part of a broader life pattern, with men merely another source of drama and excitement to sit along side ongoing histrionics with their female friends and breathless reports on Kim Kardashian’s booty.

  28. johnnymilfquest

    “It’s as if women are operating under the unspoken assumption of, “I bring the p$ssy, you bring the fun and excitement”. Translation: i can be passive, you need to constantly work it”

    +1

    I’m going to a blog post on this.

  29. 108spirits

    A woman’s idea of fun & excitement in this context is quite different to that of a man though. You can see this in the kind of entertainment they consume (excitement = bullshit interpersonal dramas) vs what men consume (excitement = adventures, grand accomplishments).

    Judging by our standards, those druggies are hardly any more exciting than the regular guys. Getting fucked up constantly on drugs, collecting welfares and having mindless conflicts with people in your life hardly make for an exciting & fun existence. But a surprisingly significant minority of women dig it.

  30. Pingback: What Do You Want To Do? « Johnny Milfquest's Horn of Plenty

  31. candi

    Hey guys. Wow, I never thought i’d get so much free advice/replies to a story anywhere online. But I was wrong. You guys have a lot of good points. On the same note, It’s hard to truly understand the manipulation of addicts and how good they actually are at it until you actually are with one on a constant basis or at least talk to them that frequently. I never considered it fun to date an addict. There probably are some people who subconsciously are attracted to someone for that reason, but I wasn’t. I was just someone who back then just was simply not so educated on understanding addiction. Some of you seem like you may understand it better, but a few comments from some of you show you really aren’t too educated on it. Just being truthful. Being an addict does not mean that you cannot hold a job. It does not mean that you don’t have money. And it definitely does not mean that you are not smart. You can be book smart and of course street smart, but does that mean that you are smart in the fact that you are taking drugs??? of course not! The difference between addicts and those who are not addicts as addicts could try a certain substance, even alcohol of course, and before they really know it actually not be able to stop. People who are not addicts, on the other end, can possibly try a substance a few times, even really addicting substances and not develop the same problem. I used to be very judgmental and cold hearted towards the whole thing, but believe me if you have any compassion for other people in yourself it changes once you truly understand. Addicts will lie and do whatever they have to because they do not want to show it to the people that care about them because of the pain it would cause. It’s really sad actually. But yeah, I’m not a pathetic girl, my name is not really Candi, it’s Kelly, there you go. But I do appreciate the advice from those who really tried to help. But a few questions/comments: to those of you who said I cannot save addicts, and that some girls just cannot get enough of chasing addicts or whatever, trust me, I KNOW THIS!! I am not and have have been trying to “save them”. Only they can help themselves. I understand addiction. I know this. And to the person who described drug addicts as pale and skinny with hallow cheeks, you’re thinking of meth addicts. that’s so gross I mean, I’ve never knew an addict who looked like that. And to the person who said “LJBFed” May I ask, wtf is that? Where do most of you guys live? I’m just curious but I have a feeling you don’t all live in the United States…? -Kelly :)

  32. candi

    I just realized I didn’t really elaborate on what I was saying in the beginning of my previous post. I wasn’t really educated on addiction when I was first with my previous boyfriend, and I had a negative attitude towards drugs and and drug addicts. But then something in me decided to stop acting that way and to just give him a chance. Nobody treated me as well as he did, cared about me as much, and I didn’t want to tell him to get lost right away because we were attracted to one another. But yes, there were definitely rough times. But there were a lot of great times also. He really only ever used for a period of about two months if you add it all up in the two and a half years we were together. It was not out of the blue, either. It was usually because of something to do with me or another similar factor in his life. I am not defending it in any way, I was just explaining it a little better. Because I made it seem like I had a tough attitude towards it in the beginning, but then didn’t explain how we began dating afterwards.

  33. Looking Glass

    @ Candi/Kelly:

    Around here, we’d say your “hamster was running wild.” It doesn’t matter your view on addiction or the practical consequences. You spent a few hundred words trying to rationalize away the issue that you’ve been attracted to two separate men that have had drug problems. That means part of you either likes some of the personality aspects that go along with addiction (it could just be “adventurous” and you’ve just found the wrong crowd) or simply part of your crowd of friendships has people in it with that issue. This isn’t a judgement, it’s a statement of the facts you presented. This doesn’t make any one involved a “bad” person, but you spent several hundred words attempting to rationalize away your assumption that they are. It’s why it’s called the “Rationalization Hamster”, it just spins & spins about nothing really germane to the point.

    As to what happened with “law school guy”, you have to understand that the natural sexual strategy for women is called “hypergamy”, which just means to “marry up” or “have relationships with men of higher status”. What happened in the threesome is that “law school guy” comes off, by nature of being accepted into the sexual relationship of your and your ex-boyfriend, as a much higher “status” male. This is why you were attracted to him after the fact. You had an objective measure of status between the two men and the “law school guy” won out. You are then just responding to that. It’s those subconscious attraction aspects. It’s not really any different than when an attractive man walks into the room. You’re responding to physical signals in a subconscious manner. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just important to know *that* is what is causing your confusion.

    You might want to read Bb’s post about “being nice” and what it implies to relationships. It goes further into this context. http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/just-be-sure-hes-nice/

  34. johnnymilfquest

    Candi/Kelly wrote:

    “And to the person who described drug addicts as pale and skinny with hallow cheeks, you’re thinking of meth addicts.”

    No, I was thinking of male models actually.

  35. Guarded

    Hi All ,
    My question is about my current BF of 5 months. We get along great we actually met in H.S reconnected 8 months ago. He tells me that I drive him crazy , he was fascinated by me..He can’t keep his hands off of me cuddling or sexual. He’s a type of guy who keeps giving he doesn’t get jealous at all, and only has been in love once in his life out of 13 relationships. He told me he really really likes me more.than what I know he wants to keep me happy & loves to cuddle..etc my question is could he be falling for me and I don’t realize it? All his friends know of me and I noticed his eyes twinkle when he kisses me. We have so much on common its ridiculous is this a bad thing? I guess I’m very curious but I will.not ask him because I don’t want to scare him I’m enjoying our casual relationship , because I feel so lucky to be with such a great guy. Any advice ? Thanks Very Guarded..

  36. candi,

    I appreciate your coming here for suggestions. There’s not much I can add to the responses in the comments, except to say that you may want to consider seeing a counselor or a psychiatrist to discuss some of this stuff. It’s not at all that you are “broken” in some way, it’s just that anyone who has a relationship with a drug addict is going to experience extreme psychological stress while being exposed to the mental machinations of their partner’s addiction. That can manifest in your personal moods as well as your choices in future relationships (as we’ve already seen in your case).

    DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A DOCTOR OR A COUNSELOR. I’m a dude on the Internet who wants people to live better lives. The only drug I can prescribe is love.

  37. Pingback: Dear Badger: Is He Falling For Me? | The Badger Hut

  38. @Guarded
    [he] only has been in love once in his life out of 13 relationships. my question is could he be falling for me and I don’t realize it?

    Because you have provided all the numbers, and because past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, the answer is very easy: there is a 1 in 13 chance — approximately 7.7% — that he is, or ever will be, in love with you. (This number already includes the chance that a few years later some other girl will write here about the guy who has only loved in 2 of 26 or maybe in 3 of 39 relationships, and in this touching story you will have the honor to be his former #2 love.)

    He tells me that I drive him crazy , he was fascinated by me..He can’t keep his hands off of me cuddling or sexual. He told me he really really likes me more.than what I know he wants to keep me happy & loves to cuddle..etc

    I guess that in the 13 previous relationships he also told girls something or did something, so I would not count this an evidence. The result remains 7.7%.

  39. guarded

    Ok thanks , for your input. I guess ill just see how it goes and I won’t expect anything then.

  40. Lily

    @theprivateman / any other men who want to offer suggestions:

    I posted on Susan’s blog the following predicament (and for what it’s worth, normally I’m a lot more confident in my impressions, but my affection is definitely clouding my judgement):

    Hey Susan, one of my girlfriends left you a question over a year ago and I see your advice was well received. Maybe you could help me?

    I met a guy through work (our companies interact intermittently). He flirted with me and gave me his card for work purposes but as I was leaving reminded me that I had his number now in case I ever wanted to game (a discovered common interest). Well I was out of town and traveling and when I got back saw him again and he wasn’t even working with me but came out to chat while I was passing through. That night I called and left him a voicemail asking if he wanted to see a movie. A week later he texted that the voicemail was incoherent and he finally figured out who it was. He seemed happy to talk to me, and said to hit him up when I came back. We texted sporadically for a while and I invited him to a paintball session a bunch if friends were going to but he works all weekend (two fulltime jobs) so he couldn’t make it but offered to hang out after and we could “fool around.” I tried to get a sense of what he meant, hoping he wasn’t he wasn’t just bring really forward. I asked point blank if clothed outings were out of the question, and he said he’d love to hang out, and that hadn’t been his intent.
    Weeks pass, and finally a hookup is sounding fun. So I say I’m housesitting and could use some company, and he says he’d love to and maybe keep me company all weekend. Long story short, he comes over, we talk and have great conversation and eventually hook up. He was a complete sweetheart and as he was going he talked about some stuff we could do together and I asked if that lune always worked for him, and he laughed, said he was serious but wasn’t looking fir “a girlfriend or wife or anything).
    I get a text the next day asking how I am and then I hint at (did not offer/ask) a second visit, and he says he’ll call, which he did a few times to keep me up to date on where he was with his guy friends, all of whom were listening to him talk to me sweetly on the phone. He says I should come next time because it’ll be more fun with me.
    He arrives a little drunk since it was boys night out and honestly, I’ve had hookups before, and when my other FWB arrive, they weren’t like him. “I forgot how beautiful you were,” and a sweet kiss. It felt like a boyfriend coming home. The whole night although less conversation, all our sexual exchanges (I’m not going to get graphic) were not typical to someone you randomly sleep with, or not in my previous encounters. He even called me “his girl” in passing conversation when it turns out I’d met sone friends of his and they’d been “friendly” toward me (small world).

    So after our last exchange there was a moment where he asked me to fo something and I joked about getting a prize and he said anything. I asked for one date. He said no problem, “I can give you that and so much more.” (And yes, in the light of day I see the conflict of interest.) He mentioned it again before he left, and was still being very sweet and kissed me goodnight.

    A few days pass with nothing. At 3 am last night he called but left no message. I texted this afternoon to see what was up and nothing back.

    Am I doomed to be a booty call? I know that’s what I went into this looking for, but I actually really like this guy. I forgot how much we clicked when we first met two months ago. And I feel like I know the answer, but he has mentioned hanging out in the daytime three times, although not concretely, and his actions and words didn’t seem like someone not interested in more than sex (eg holding hands and eye contact during).

    So do I wait it out and eventually embrace he’s just not that into me? Or do I break the silence and at least try for a real date?

    Thanks, Susan!

  41. Hello, I read one of Susan’s blogs and thought that maybe she (or anyone filing in for her) could help me. I met this guy a few months ago who is way older than I, we went out for ice cream and I thought – he’s alright. However we both made it clear immediately that it was a f-buddy situation and nothing more. However, we tried to meet up a few times but something always came up so I had to reschedule (we still haven’t met up yet). Soon, I found out out that he was quite lewd, he suggests some dirty things that I’m not really comfortable with (knowing I’m a virgin) and I’ve had to tell him that I wasn’t interested in those things, which he has somewhat accepted now.

    I also found out that he is in that phase where he wants to explore every girl that comes his way, he’s always telling me about what he did with girl a or girl b and sometimes I think – ‘stop telling me these things, I’m only your potential f-buddy’. Now, he has this girl whom I’m sure is his main squeeze. But here is my problem – he lied to her, making her believe they are exclusive when they are not. He even told me he could not pick me up from the train station for our latest failed meeting because she lives around there and he’s scared that she’ll see him with me. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not jealous at all but my conscience is killing me; there’s a girl out there who must be thinking that he sees only her (not knowing the truth) and I don’t play with or date men that belong to other women, I’m always scared that karma will come back to bite me in the butt if I do that. I was meant to go over to his place today but I couldn’t because I have a cold and don’t look attractive in anyway but when I sent him a message saying that, he didn’t reply which is what he usually does. This is just confusing, I don’t know what to do. Please help. Thanks.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s