Michelle Langley and “Women’s Infidelity” on the Tom Leykis Show

I just came across this clip of the Tom Leykis show in which Tom (or Dad if you are a regular listener) interviews Michelle Langley, author of Women’s Infidelity: Living In Limbo: What Women Really Mean When They Say “I’m Not Happy.” (Not sure why the book needed two subtitles.)

A four-time divorcee, before he went off the air Leykis was without a doubt the most prominent media figure seriously promoting the idea that the institution of marriage was a bad business and personal deal for men. He never called it a “strike,” he simply told every man who asked about it on the show to not get married. When asked why he got married four times, he explained that his experiences qualified him to speak on the matter and emphasized the words “institution” and “commitment.”

I love this woman’s voice, by the way.

Langley makes, among others, the following assertions:

  • Women have been taught that they should “want” commitment and marriage, while the days of women needing a husband to support their basic needs are over.
  • “Women want to get married, they just don’t like being married,” but they are taught they should manipulate and cajole men into marriage.
  • Women have been taught that men are slothful dogs and that women are intrinsically moral beings, thus they lack empathy for men and believe that their female instincts and drives are ipso facto morally right (hmm, could it be….haaamsters?)
  • Marriage has been oversold to women, who feel disappointment when marriage turns out to be like real life with a permanent roommate. Meanwhile marriage has been undersold to men, who are taught they are to avoid “commitment,” and so their reaction to marriage is sometimes “this isn’t as bad as I thought it was.”
  • According to her research the general tendencies are that married women cheat for sexual satisfaction, while married men cheat for emotional fulfillment (the latter backs up what your intrepid blogger has been reading).
  • Sex releases bonding hormones (paging Athol Kay), and marriages without any sex unsurprisingly lack the fruit of that bonding mechanism.
  • Females’ lack of skill (or lack of desire) in communicating their wants to their husbands is a major contributor to their continuing marital unhappiness and to their husbands eventually not trying at all.
  • Paternity tests should be mandatory and Lord Manfield’s Rule of child support (your wife, your kid no matter the DNA) is terribly unfair. Joint custody should be the law in a divorce with children.
  • Female sexual shaming, and propagandizing females as intrinsically monogamous, evolved to maintain credible paternity in patriarchal society.
  • Said sexual shaming is outdated now that we have paternity tests.
  • Backing off on sexual shaming of women will lead them to make better decisions about marriage because they won’t have to get married in order to have control over their sexuality (i.e. sex within marriage is socially approved).

I thought the last point was rather specious in modern urban society (who outside of religious communities is getting married strictly to be able to have sex?) but putting that aside Langley was lights out. In discussing male and female mating strategies she flirted with hypergamy but never said the words; she described it as “men spread the seed and women gather it.”

Leykis takes a call from a middle-aged married childless woman who tells listeners to not get married, citing her frustration that her husband doesn’t “think about her 24/7.” (Langley responds that women “only need 6-7 hours per week of undivided attention.”)

Another married caller complains that as the breadwinner she risks loss of lifestyle and time with her son if she leaves her cold fish husband. Langley noted that she could empathize with men, who are overwhelmingly the ones in the position to lose material worth and child access in divorce. The caller’s solution was to have an “open marriage” (which by my definition and Leykis’ is not a marriage).

Research like Langley’s is very interesting to me, putting words to the real problems and backing off the pressure of the marriage cartel to make participation in the institution a matter of personal choice instead of social pressure and herd approval. Some people could learn an awful lot from her.

FWIW, I’m not really in line with the marriage strike idea, first of all because it’s an impractical idea to get behind; most men want to have relationships with women, and many want to be husbands and fathers as part of their natural instinct to lead and to breed. Shaming men for getting married is going to produce another group of weak, confused men – these ones getting it on both sides, from guys who say they are too committed along with the ubiquitous women who say they aren’t committed enough. (The best move would probably be for men to just stop listening to the criticisms of women on this front entirely, and simply ask themselves “is this the life I want for my future?” If no, move on and date someone else or be single and get on with your life’s work.)

I am in line with Dalrock and Athol Kay, who advocate that men should not marry unless they:

  • Are head over heels in love with a woman who is same
  • Have seriously considered their bride’s fitness for marriage
  • Openly prepared to commit the effort (“game”) necessary to remain the #1 man in her life

It blows my mind that in an era where almost nobody really has to get married lest they risk the confirmed bachelor/old maid reputation, people are still getting into bad marriages at a huge clip. Dalrock has said (brilliantly) that men should feel no social or moral obligation to marry in an environment where “commitment” is really only until one spouse decides to call the divorce attorney, and/or the cops.

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238 Comments

Filed under media, primary sources

238 responses to “Michelle Langley and “Women’s Infidelity” on the Tom Leykis Show

  1. Will S.

    “■Are head over heels in love with a woman who is same”

    Did you mean ‘same’, or ‘sane’? Though I suppose both are important.

    [I knew someone would think that was a Freudian slip.]

  2. udolipixie

    Paternity tests should be mandatory.

    Sadly it doesn’t help women whose husband could have fathered a child by cheating unless she keeps an eye on the finances or the other woman takes him to court.

    As for the sex bonding hormones aren’t women the ones who benefit from this?

    [That's a good question to ask - in fact both men and women experience sex-induced bonding via the oxytocin/vasopressin system. Athol Kay has written a lot on this. It is a cultural trope that men can have sex without feelings, and that has some anecdotal truth to it, but I think it's a matter of whether the guy is after sex or if sex is an expression of something more. My general take is that a man in love bonds further through sex, but a man who is only sexually interested in a woman won't bond nearly as much. In other words, men can have sex without love, but they can't really have love without sex.

    Bill Clinton-style "alpha" men will cheat for sex and their brains don't really do the bonding thing anyway, but your average frustrated suburban husband is not only sexually deprived but emotionally firewalled. If Langley is correct, more men are cheating for the second reason, which makes sense since there are more "beta"-type men with high emotional needs.]

    Both men & women shouldn’t get married unless they
    Are head over heels in love with a partner who feels the same
    Have seriously considered their partner’s fitness for marriage
    Openly prepared to commit the effort (“game”) necessary to remain #1

    I never got why being an old maid was a reputation risk.

    [Two words: cat ladies.]

  3. I see we’ve got the night owls out tonight.

  4. Bob

    Good luck convincing mainstream women… or men… or the media… well, good luck convincing anyone that most women cheat for sex and most men cheat for emotions. Or that women are bad at communicating their problems.

    There are a lot of shibboleths (love that word) which have to be destroyed before you can convince any one individual to make smarter choices.

    In the occasional instances where the topic comes up in real life, I usually have to just focus on the “marriage doesn’t mean commitment anymore” bit. You can basically explain that one beyond counter-argument in ten seconds.

  5. I’m starting to believe that “head over heels” means something different to men than it does to women.

    [Please elaborate?]

  6. udolipixie

    Cat ladies?

    lol

    Maybe the traditional old maids.

  7. If had to pinpoint the problem with marriage I wouldn’t locate it in the psyche of either the bride or the groom.

    There is only ONE problem with marriage: its a legal contract with the state.

  8. Paternity testing should be mandatory.

    I don’t know exactly what Marriage 3.0 looks like, but that’s sure as hell in there.

  9. modernguy

    The one invariable when women “experts” get out and start yapping about the problems caused by the sexual revolution (although they don’t say it that way) is that slut shaming should be abolished. There’s always a self-serving agenda. Maybe we should do away with fat shaming since we have liposuction now? Why is it such a problem for women who want to go hog-wild to accept that they’re sluts?

  10. @modernguy: How about this remark from Danielle Edwards (fioccodineve13) on Twitter?

    “Saving your virginity for someone special is like holding your shit for a special toilet.”

    Her words. Not mine.

  11. modernguy

    Lol. I bet she’ll be 300 pounds at some point in her life. Girls like that are trash in more ways than one.

  12. Brendan

    I think Langley is so/so. I read her book a few years ago. While it has some insights, much of it is directed at needling men (e..g, she has a lengthy section about the importance of penis size that is clearly designed to shame men with average sized penises as being flatly unattractive to women — no doubt the case for Langley, as she is a size queen, but she over-generalizes — something which recurs throughout the book).

    I’m also very skeptical that women cheat for sex while men cheat for emotional bonding. Men compartmentalize cheating, on average, much better than women do. When a woman cheats, it often isn’t “just about sex”, but because she is seeking a new sexual bond. That sexual bond comes with emotion. Many women who are cheating are in marriages that are low sex, and that was one thing that drove them to cheat (due to the lack of bonding she speaks of), but once they have bonded to their lovers they are happy the marriage is low sex because they don’t particularly want to have sex with their husbands any longer — the lover is now in the “boyfriend box” inside them emotionally, and the husband is in the “love him but not like that” box. When men cheat, this is much less the case, and male cheating is not really as directly related to the degree and quality of marital sex. A man cheats because (1) he wants sexual variety and (2) he can (he thinks) pull it off and get away with it and (3) he has no moral or ethical principles holding him back. For every guy like the Governor of SC, there are plenty more like Eliot Spizter, Bill Clinton and Arnold S., who didn’t cheat for emotional fulfillment.

    This is why I am skeptical of Langley. She has many nuggets of truth in her book, but it’s laced with an irrepressible desire to needle men and turn the tables on men — something which leads, in more than one place, to inaccuracies of substantial proportions.

  13. Badger–
    The phrase “head over heels” suggests some degree of infatuation. I’ve only seen this pressed for as a prerequisite to marriage by men. Maybe it’s necessary for men due to their status as pursuers (and therefore needing motivation to pursue), but it’s not something I can recall regularly encountering in advice to women in choosing a husband. It just seems like a really high bar to clear; you can love, respect, and be physically attracted to someone without having overwhelming “head over heels” feelings for that person as well.

    Then again, I suppose that in an era where premarital sex is an expected part of courtship, not being able to arouse any infatuation despite consummation would be a bad sign in general.

  14. Cookie

    Good post; her book sounds full of truisms. In particular:
    “Marriage has been oversold to women.” Has it ever!!! But that’s changing, I’m seeing more young and not-so-young women rejecting marriage and no, they’re not necessarily riding that old cock carousel or becoming cat ladies (the new shaming word to replace “old maids.”).

    Really, it seems like the ones most desperate to marry are low ranking beta men who think marriage will deliver them from involuntary celibacy. I see it all the time and actually, I feel sorry for these poor saps; it seldom ends well for them. Despite all the crowing about “game” on the manosphere, I suspect
    many of them are striking out.

    “most men want to have relationships with women, and many want to be husbands and fathers as part of their natural instinct to lead and to breed”

    Badger, I think this is the male equivalent of the whole wedding day fantasy silly girls have – once the men get into it and discover it’s: work, not always fun, sometimes or often sucks, and not like owning your own personal porn dolly (she’s an actual human being! not just a vagina and tits! who knew!), these men are gravely disappointed and feel swindled. Damn reality!

  15. modernguy

    Cookie, how many cats do you have?

  16. Cookie

    Two cats AND a husband! Someday we’ll even get a dog.

    My marriage has worked out because we both know the difference between reality and fantasy; many people do not.

  17. modernguy

    That’s like saying fat asses shouldn’t dream of being soldiers. I think they shouldn’t dream of being navy seals, but the army still accepts fatsos and works with them. If the culture did a better job of whipping these lard butts into shape once they commit, it could be workable. Then again you don’t get to stuff yourself with big macs and milk shakes during basic training either. Let’s just eliminate tv.

  18. modernguy

    @Haley

    The thing that gets stuck in one’s craw is that the same girls who are so reasonable and practical about choosing their husband are the same ones who were so resistant to sleeping with the reasonable guy when they were living “the single life”.

  19. Brendan

    Really, it seems like the ones most desperate to marry are low ranking beta men who think marriage will deliver them from involuntary celibacy. I see it all the time and actually, I feel sorry for these poor saps; it seldom ends well for them. Despite all the crowing about “game” on the manosphere, I suspect
    many of them are striking out.

    Yep. Some people don’t realize that they’re basically trash and just accept it. They’d be happier if they did, right, Cookie?

  20. Doug1

    I’ve read both of Michelle Langely’s books, though I skimmed parts of them.

    Here analysis of the stages of marital breakdown and the effects of cheating in completing dissolving a woman’s sense of pair bondedness is very good. This however i don’t agree with at all:

    According to her research the general tendencies are that married women cheat for sexual satisfaction, while married men cheat for emotional fulfillment (the latter backs up what your intrepid blogger has been reading).

    About all other research shows the opposite. I do think women cheat for sex a lot more than is generally supposed though. Emotional excitement and sex. New relationship energy.

    And yeah, most women aren’t size queens. Through really micro peens are a problem — but also not all that common.

  21. Doug1

    Brendan–

    This is why I am skeptical of Langley. She has many nuggets of truth in her book, but it’s laced with an irrepressible desire to needle men and turn the tables on men — something which leads, in more than one place, to inaccuracies of substantial proportions.

    There is definitely a heartless or even cruel streak to her.

  22. Stephenie Rowling

    I think the idea is not that marriage is oversold, but the wedding is oversold and no one mentions the marriage per se. With the levels of female narcissism all time high on American Culture the wedding is pretty much the only event where the woman has the perfect combo of attention, make up, pretty dress and everything arranged exactly the way she always dreamed it. I suspect they think the marriage is going to be a never ending wedding day and when thinks become normal they cannot get their “fix” of attention from one single individual so marriage gets old fast and the excitement of the attention of a new lover start to become an acceptable substitute, YMMV.

  23. udolipixie

    @Brendan
    How does women cheating for a new sexual bond show men compartmentalize cheating, on average, much better than women do?

    The woman is compartmentalizing cheating the lover is in the boyfriend compartment and the husband is in the “love him but not like that” compartment.

    A guy cheating not because of his quantity and/or quality of marital sex but for sexual variety, because he can or thinks he can pull it off and get away with it, or because he has no moral or ethical principles holding him back are reasons not compartmentalizing.

    Did you mean compartmentalize emotions from cheating not compartmentalize cheating?

    Because that doesn’t make sense to me either because the cheating woman’s emotions are compartmentalized also with the lover getting the loving and sexual emotions & the husband getting the loving emotions.

    Or did you mean men can cheat with getting emotionally bonded to who they cheat with?
    Because if so that doesn’t equal better compartmentalization.

    Or that men have more reasons to cheat?
    Don’t agree but it would make sense if you’re saying men have more compartmentalized reasons but you’re saying men compartmentalized cheating much better.

    How do they?

  24. Haley, thanks for the elaboration but I honestly don’t grok the point you are trying to make. Are you saying that women don’t seek feelings of love when considering a potential husband? That they should seek love but they are taught to make a pragmatic decision to land a beta provider? That it’s silly for men to do so?

    Going back to your first comment, what does “head over heels” mean to a woman? That a man checks all of her checklist boxes?

    “You can love, respect, and be physically attracted to someone without having overwhelming “head over heels” feelings for that person as well.”

    That doesn’t sound like a spouse to me, that’s more like a friend you might consider banging if the opportunity presented itself. I understand that marriage is not always roses and boners, and that unreasonable expectations to that effect have been pushed in society, but I don’t think the right response is to completely remove any expectation that one should regard their spouse as a special mate.

  25. udolipixie

    @Badger
    Haley’s right that’s how most successful couples are.

    “You can love, respect, and be physically attracted to someone without having overwhelming “head over heels” feelings for that person as well.”

    Only 1 in 10 have remained their head over heels feelings.

    Most either lose it or never had it but they are still lucky to be with someone they love, respect, and want to have sex with.

    It’s quite unrealistic to expect that people to view their you husband/wife as a special mate rather than just a mate.

    I know plenty of girls who married guys they love, respect, and want to have sex with but lost or never had the heads over heels feelings.

    What’s unreasonable is a girl I know who is going to marry a guy she loves & respects but is not sexually attracted to.

  26. Will S.,

    Thanks for the link drop. That Devlin piece is a classic, and one of the first things I read that really set me on the red-pill path.

  27. Will S.

    Hey, you’re welcome Badger. Devlin is the man.

    Cheers.

  28. Badger–
    Where are you getting the idea that I don’t think that women should love the men they are marrying?! “Head over heels,” as I said above, implies feelings of infatuation: butterflies in the stomach, obsessive thoughts, etc. Infatuation is something that women are told to get over or ignore, because tingles don’t usually lead anywhere good (see: your average manosphere griping). For a woman trying to make a good match, having “head over heels” as a requirement just seems like an extremely tall order to fill, on top of finding a man who will be loving, loyal, strong, intelligent, good-humored, a good provider, a good father, and an enjoyable companion.

    Maybe this is something men just don’t understand…that a woman can feel deep love, respect, and affection for a man and want to stand by his side and still not feel overwhelmed by infatuation.


    [Where are you getting the idea women are being taught to ignore the tingle? Not from Oprah, EPL and the I'm not haaaaappy crowd.]

  29. collegeslacker

    Regarding male cheating, I think Frost had a very insightful comment awhile back that took me awhile to find, but check it out:

    http://freedomtwentyfive.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/gotcha-sort-of/#comment-443

    I agree with him that men have one or two “Romantic” boxes that only a certain girl or girls can occupy, girls that are really special to him, and that having sex with a girl occupying a “Sex-only” box does not affect the way he feels about the girls in the Romantic box. That’s my take, at least, based on experience.

  30. Stephenie Rowling

    Will S.
    Wonderful article I saved on my computer. My husband is one of those men that is still blind to the way the system works and I’m gathering info for when shit hits the fan.

  31. Badger–
    From the women who want their daughters (and other female members of the younger generation) to get married, and from other societal stabilizers like church, and from friends who’ve been burned, and from personal experience. Not every woman out there treats Oprah like a priestess of self, or goes to sleep with Eat, Pray, Love under the pillow.

  32. Brendan

    Because that doesn’t make sense to me either because the cheating woman’s emotions are compartmentalized also with the lover getting the loving and sexual emotions & the husband getting the loving emotions.

    Or did you mean men can cheat with getting emotionally bonded to who they cheat with?
    Because if so that doesn’t equal better compartmentalization.

    Or that men have more reasons to cheat?
    Don’t agree but it would make sense if you’re saying men have more compartmentalized reasons but you’re saying men compartmentalized cheating much better.

    How do they?

    The difference (generally, and there are exceptions) is this:

    - When men cheat, the lover does not “take the place of” the wife. She is an addition, like a concubine/mistress

    - When women cheat, the lover does “take the place of” the husband. He is the boyfriend/romantic partner whereas the husband becomes the housemate/brother (yes, she still “loves” him, but she also loves her parents and her siblings, and her love for her husband in this case is more like that than it is for a husband or romantic partner — that aspect of her love is now focused on her lover)

    So the men tend to compartmentalize the sex outside of the marriage into a “sex only” box that does not replace the sense of feelings they have for their wives. This is evidenced by the fact that the overwhelming majority of cheating men have no intention at all of leaving their wives for their lovers, and not simply because of divorce law either. They cheat for sexual variety, not because they are looking to replace a wife they are not happy with.

    For women, by contrast, they tend not to cheat for sexual variety but to replace a husband with whom they are unhappy. So the lover becomes her de facto husband, emotionally, and her real husband is pretty much irreversibly replaced. This isn’t compartmentalizing. It’s downgrading the husband to “love you like I love my brother” status while replacing the husband with the lover for the “love you with my heart and body” status. It’s completely different from the typical male pattern of cheating, and is quite obviously even more troubling for a marriage.

    There are exceptions, of course. Men do fall in love with other women — like Mark Sanford. However, the Mark Sanfords of the world are vastly, vastly outnumbered by the Spitzers, Clintons and Schwatzeneggers of the world — men who cheated with no intention at all of leaving their wives and families or replacing heir wives with their lovers. On the female side of the ledger, as Langley notes in her book (and in this she is right, I think), most of the time the marriage just ends and no-one is the wiser — that is much of the time the husband never even realizes that she’s been having an affair and either is surprised with it during the divorce or never finds out about it, period. The point being, however, that female affairs tend to be had with the idea of replacing/upgrading the husband. All kinds of affairs are very hard for a marriage to survive, male or female, but female affairs are harder because the woman typically feels no remorse, feels entitled to have cheated, and has no intention or desire to work on the marriage (in stark contrast to the attitudes we typically see from male adulterers). All of that, plus the betrayal and trust issues common to all affairs, make overcoming female adultery in a marriage an almost insurmountable challenge.

  33. Brendan

    For a woman trying to make a good match, having “head over heels” as a requirement just seems like an extremely tall order to fill, on top of finding a man who will be loving, loyal, strong, intelligent, good-humored, a good provider, a good father, and an enjoyable companion.

    Maybe this is something men just don’t understand…that a woman can feel deep love, respect, and affection for a man and want to stand by his side and still not feel overwhelmed by infatuation.

    Haley –

    I think this is one of those areas where men and women are different.

    As I’ve noted in the past over on your own blog, men are attracted to more women than women are attracted to men. What that means is that the percentage of men that women will find themselves “head over heels for” is smaller than the percentage of women that men will find themselves “head over heels” for. So for a man to screen for this is not going to screen out as many as would the case for a woman. And, as we generally observe, the “head over heels” thing for women seems to be concentrated on a relatively small number of men, and seems to be something many women share in common with respect to the same small group of men — that is, it’s more focused on the same group of men. On the male side of the ledger, instead of concentration, variety reigns supreme — men are attracted to all sorts of women, and different men fall “head over heels” for very different kinds of women –> it’s the opposite of the silverback alpha concentration pattern we tend to see in women’s “head over heels” attractions. So when you put that together with the numbers factor, the likelihood that a guy will be able to find someone whom he is “head over heels” attracted to is just higher than it is for a woman — for reasons having much less to do with individuals but more to do with how men and women are, as groups.

    In light of that, I think it’s also “safer” for a woman to screen men on the basis of whether the *men* are head over heels for them. Why? Because, chances are, he is head over heels for someone in his proximity, and if it isn’t you, then that’s a significant problem. Women can go for long periods without being around men who activate the tingle — whereas in a group of any size, most men will find a woman that they could fall head over heels in love with. And if that woman isn’t you, then that’s a problem.

    It’s true that this doesn’t “last” at the same level of intensity for a long marriage. Of course not. But the fact of that spark having been there is nevertheless important on the male side of the ledger at least — it provides a critical bond of him to his wife, and is a core aspect of how men bond to long-term mates. For women respect and being sexually attracted to is enough, it seems (probably based on pragmatism in that there simply aren’t enough tingle-inducing men to go around), but not for men.

  34. detinennui32

    Come for the articles, stay for the debate.

    Unfortunately, Aunt Haley has trotted out the NAWALT defense.

    The “butterflies in stomach” she writes about IS the ‘gina tingle.

    Haley’s viewpoint only works when there are fully operational external forces requiring female fidelity. Those forces usually take the form of financial dependence on her man; past experiences leading her to the conclusions on male-female relationships espoused in the manosphere; or societal and/or religious authority. Hence the wife does not cheat for fear of divorce due to adultery, because she knows she could be caught, and if caught, she would likely be out on the street with no support for herself and her children, forced to wear the scarlet letter. And she would get little help from her parents or extended family, who would judge that she “got what she deserved”. And hence pre-sexual revolution, many women avoided premarital sex for fear of unplanned pregnancy or slut shaming. Whether adultery or premarital sex, pre-sexual revolution women restrained their naturally hypergamous tendencies because they knew that such behavior destroyed their SMV and their chances for a man willing to make himself a source of support for them and their children.

    Almost all these restraints have been removed. They only operate now when a woman willingly submits to them and accepts them as beneficial (e.g. church/pastoral authority and Biblical teachings on adultery, fidelity, husband/wife roles, etc.). But even that can’t persuade a woman to ignore the tingle. She still feels tingles (or absence thereof). Attraction is not a choice. Christianity does not rewrite the biological code of imperatives; Christianity only places a layer of restraint over them.

    (Moreover, the divorce rate in the Christian community apporaches that in the general population. Clearly, the church’s message of New Testament commanded fidelity isn’t getting through, mostly because the church has abdicated its responsibilities in that regard, but not wanting to hijack the thread, that’s another matter.)

    Aunt Haley’s viewpoint is a good start. I believe the former societal and religious restraints should be fully put back into place. But even in the unlikely event that happens, I’m persuaded it doesn’t get us all the way to satisfying, fulfilling relationships. Women are hypergamous, i.e. they want the best man they can get. Women will tingle whether they want to or not. Devout Christian women tingle. Former carousel riders tingle. Mothers tingle. Daughters tingle. We as men need to satisfy the tingle and women need to be taught to recognize it for what it is. As a husband, I need to make sure my wife’s tingle is for me, and me alone. If I don’t, I risk her divorcing me in a legal system in which she has all the advantages.

  35. modernguy

    These days if a woman isn’t “head over heels” that’s the first excuse for divorce or cheating. You can’t win either way. If you try to start a relationship with that feeling, she’ll be dissatisfied when it inevitably wanes and you’re discovered to be a normal “boring” man. If she deigns to forgo the tingles and pair up with you, she’ll have second thoughts when someone else makes her feel them, and start wondering what she’s denied herself. The more women’s feelings are legitimized as valid motives for action the further we push ourselves into a corner. It was better when women, once committed, were held to their commitments and written off as crazy if they started acting up. I’m all for making your woman happy, but if a bond is made it has to be considered binding except under extreme circumstances (abuse, infidelity, etc). The way it is now, the only way to be successful is to adopt the pua model. Don’t invest heavily in any girl, don’t get deeply attached, keep a harem to insulate yourself from the whims of an individual girl, and always be harvesting new prospects. If you go by the way women behave, this is what they want men to do, since there is no other practical solution that avoids misery on man’s part.

  36. Lavazza

    modernguy: “If you go by the way women behave, this is what they want men to do, since there is no other practical solution that avoids misery on man’s part.”

    I think the idea is that men should not avoid misery, but “man up” and take everything on the chin.

  37. Will S.

    Hey Stephenie, thanks; good luck to you! Hope it works.
    There’s more stuff by Devlin out there, too, worth reading.

  38. Stephenie Rowling

    Opps please Badger don’t publish my comment that is my real name.
    Thanks

    [Holy crap! Your real name is Christina Hendricks? No wonder your husband is so happy.]

  39. Stephenie Rowling

    Will S.
    I must clarify that I will never leave my husband when I meant shit hit the fan I’m talking about some relatives and friends that will eventually have to face this hard truths. Hopefully I can point them out to places like this before things get worse.

  40. modernguy

    Lavazza: sure, why don’t we just eat shit at your behest, why not? Women will do what they want and we’ll pay for it.

    Essentially, manning up is what we’re doing. The whole premise behind the pick-up/game movement is to give women what works and nothing more. Personally I think the traditional form of pairing up early and for life and building a family is better for everyone in the long term, but if women don’t want to behave in a way that’s congruent with that all we can do is adapt to the best of our abilities.

  41. My Name Is Jim

    I just finished the Women’s Infidelity books today as a matter of fact, and I agree with the opinions … A lot of good insight about the petterns of cheating women and what the wrong (beta) responses are to the signs men get, and also some pretty vindictive passages. She has little empathy for men who are cheated on, spending much effort teasing out all the ways that men contribute to women’s temptations to cheat and keep chrating, and little building cheated-on men’s esteem back up to help them handle women’s infidelity they way they shoould.

    I think it’s very telling that Kevin (the cheated on husband in the first book) was portrayed as a former cheater himself. This was likely very deliberately put in by langley, and it certainly has the effect to cut off (justified) feelings of sympathy for Kevin and portray Tracey (the wife) more sympathetically. I know she says tje conversations really happened, but she’s talked to many people, she picked Kevin for the book on purpose. Langley seems to go out of her way to have as little sympathy for men cheated on as she can get away with.

  42. My Name Is Jim

    Brendan, dude, get your own damn blog already. I see great stuff from you so often and in great depth, I don’t know why you’re just in the comments section. Get one, I would read it!

  43. Brendan does have a blog (he used to go by the nickname novaseeker), but he has since basically stopped posting there.

    http://novaseeker.wordpress.com/

  44. Will S.

    Stephenie: Oh, well good luck to you and your friends and family, nevertheless. And hopefully your husband can also learn something; I think all men today should read the likes of Devlin; everyone can benefit.

    Cheers.

  45. Will S.

    My Name is Jim: and he also had an older blog at novaseeker.blogspot.com, which is still up, I believe. Lots of good stuff, there, too.

  46. My Name Is Jim

    You, and the other one I wish would blog is Gorbachev. I’ve seen threads where he was on fire in the comments section, concentrated pure awesomeness.

  47. My Name Is Jim

    OK, will read, thanks!

  48. Will S.

    You wish I would blog? Thanks!

    I prefer to riff off others, for my part. Maybe someday, though… We’ll see.

    I agree about Gorbachev, for sure.

  49. For those who might like to dabble, I do accept guest posts, in fact one should be going up very soon. Contact me by comments or in private (email on the about me page).

  50. On the original post:

    “Sex releases bonding hormones (paging Athol Kay), and marriages without any sex unsurprisingly lack the fruit of that bonding mechanism.”

    Has there been research about whether or not this functions properly for women who have sex but do not achieve orgasm? AFAIK those bonding hormones are only released in any significant quantities during an orgasm, and if the woman does not, then even regular sex might not be able to bond her to him.

  51. There has been research Hope. It doesn’t release nearly as much. Something Dr. Helen Fisher has stated as being extremely concerning related to the sexual deadening of SSRI medications that impede the ability to orgasm.

  52. Brendan

    Brendan, dude, get your own damn blog already. I see great stuff from you so often and in great depth, I don’t know why you’re just in the comments section. Get one, I would read it!

    No longer had the time. Commenting provides an avenue that is less time-intensive, really.

  53. Stephenie Rowling

    @Badger
    Good one. The funny thing is that when my husband asked me why I was laughing so hard he ask me and when I told her Christina Hendricks his answer was who?…I do adore this man to bits…and by adore I mean I’m banging him regularly…with much pleasure ;)

    @Athol, @Hope
    I don’t know I think orgasm being so difficult to achieve for women shouldn’t be as deal breaker to no bonding, God’s knows I lot tons of women that keep putting up with crap with same guys no matter how bad the sex is, maybe is a correlation women that are no orgasming are already on no pair bond mode or they don’t orgasm because the bond is broken.

  54. Butterfly Flower

    As I’ve noted in the past over on your own blog, men are attracted to more women than women are attracted to men. What that means is that the percentage of men that women will find themselves “head over heels for” is smaller than the percentage of women that men will find themselves “head over heels” for.

    So what you guys are all saying is, the female gender is mostly incapable of genuine love? Girls can love, but you find their affection unsatisfactory?

    I’m an honest naïve good girl. I don’t have any malicious intentions. So I don’t think I’d be able to love a man that told me “your feelings are lies!” whenever I’d try to kiss him. That’s nigh-emotional abuse.

    Yeah, that sounds like a horrible generalization that will scare away good girls. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar. Just because you Betas have poor judgment and frequently get screwed over by a whores, doesn’t mean all women are whores.

    Do mail order husbands exist? ’cause I’d rather hook up with a cute Slavic language speaking Eastern European hottie than ever consider dating an American Beta who thinks I’m evil and incapable of loving someone other than myself.

    The Eastern European guy scores because he gets a hot virgin bride and a Visa. I score because I get a cute husband that can handle hard liquor and doesn’t whine all time about how women are souless sub-human creatures.

    …..so week three of my reading of the manosphere: I decided to start brushing up on my Ukrainian [I was never good with the Southern dialects] and begin flirting with Eastern European guys on Вконтакте. American men are too whiny. American men cry whenever they encounter a medved.

    You know, the more I read the manosphere, the more I’m convinced of the inferiority of American men. They’re just not marriage material.

  55. udolipixie

    @Butterfly Flower

    Try most American people.

    Which is why American men go after the 32% of women that aren’t obese/overweight trying to find in that percentage one that is also pretty, young, pleasant, and has an acceptable sexual history based on whatever number they use.

    While American women go after the 32% of men that aren’t obese/overweight trying to find in that percentage one that is also attractive, has a job or higher job than them, confident, not socially awkward, interesting, and ready or willing to commit.

    Fast food & materialism & entitled shallowness has ruined the American people’s dating lives.

  56. udolipixie

    In case anyone is wondering about the 32% it comes from the fact 68% of Americans are overweight or obese.

    The 68 adds up both overweight & obese people.

    @Butterfly Follower

    I meant most American people aren’t dating or marriage material.

  57. Brendan

    So what you guys are all saying is, the female gender is mostly incapable of genuine love? Girls can love, but you find their affection unsatisfactory?

    I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote, particularly from what you quoted.

    Women do fall in love and are capable of genuine love — I never said they weren’t. What I did say, and what I think is true, is that women are much more selective in terms of whom they are attracted to than men are. Therefore in terms of the numbers game, it is harder for a woman to find a man she is head over heels for and who has all of the rest of the qualities she wants. It’s also hard for a man, but less hard because his field of attraction is bigger, so in terms of the numbers game it’s easier to find that woman. As to whether she will be attracted back to him, well that’s a different story. But, again, in terms of the numbers game it’s somewhat easier on men.

  58. My Name Is Jim

    Butterfly has a point of course, it’s just corollary to the very first thing taught about game, that it requires self-confidence. The whining comes from insecurity.

    I know I’m about to ramble a little, but In the end I think the principles of game will go mainstream and enter the mainstream media image of men, perhaps become the dominant one. But in doing so, it will change to appease the female hamsters. Less emphasis on pickup and more on relationship game. Terms like alpha cock carousel will be renamed like Mystery renames terms sometimes to remove embedded negative judgments. But there’s no stopping it, the self-improvement part of it the only effective response to the way society has changed for men.

  59. Novaseeker on Michelle Langley:

    http://novaseeker.blogspot.com/2009/05/limitations-of-usefulness-of-michelle.html

    If she really wants intercourse, why would she decide not to?

    Because after messing around with the guy, she might realize that intercourse with him is unlikely to be fulfilling.

    You mean she thinks the guy won’t be good in bed?

    Exactly. During the messing around stage, she might discover that the guy has a small penis and decide to pass on intercourse. It just may not be worth the miles.

    What are you kidding me? A woman might decide not to sleep with a guy because he has a little dick?

    You may not want to believe that the size of a man’s penis doesn’t matter, but it can matter a lot — especially during a woman’s sexual prime.

    I haven’t read her book or hung out at her forum, but I have read that her work may be largely an attempt to justify her own behavior, and that there is an element of revenge motivating her size queen stuff.

    In any case, I disagree strongly with her about slut shaming. Intrasexual competition among females, which includes slut shaming (or did) has nothing to do with paternity. It’s about restricting options for the most desirable men so that they will commit.

    There’s definitely a strong whiff of an agenda in her work. Oddly, she’s a mix of sex-positivity for women, which the manosphere hates, and anti-marriage talk, which the manosphere loves. Mostly, I see her work referenced as proof that women want alpha cock and will get it in any way possible.

  60. My Name Is Jim

    Susan, you hit one of my main problems with the Women’s Infidelity books, this idea that shaming of female promiscuity and affairs is motivated simply by fear of paternity fraud and thus is outdated. That theory just doesn’t hold water for me under even casual examination. Men have much more to lose than that and there are other motivations even if it’s not right to do that. And IMO it totally glosses over the issues about what infidelity does to people’s kids.

    Marriage is certainly being tested by the societal changes but I don’t think we’ll conclude that affairs aren’t bad or wrong.

  61. Dammit Susan, I have a post prepared on Brendan’s post and you’ve scooped me on my own blog!

  62. Kathy

    “Has there been research about whether or not this functions properly for women who have sex but do not achieve orgasm? AFAIK those bonding hormones are only released in any significant quantities during an orgasm, and if the woman does not, then even regular sex might not be able to bond her to him.”

    Interesting point, Hope.

    I know for myself, that in fifteen years of marriage, I have never thought of having sex with another man.. Not once..

    Sex has always been frequent and has always culminated in orgasm for us both.

    We have a very strong bond.

    After all these years he still excites me. Still does it for me.

    My own opinion is, that the more a couple has good loving sex, the more the bond deepens.

  63. OffTheCuff

    Hey, Plain Jane, we missed you, but your writing style gives you away. If you’re going to sockpuppet, at least learn how to write in a different style, so it’s more convincing. I suggest spending some time on 4chan to improve your skills.

    Don’t feed the trolls, folks.

  64. @Badger
    Sorry, I hate it when that happens! Seriously, though, I’ve only touched the tip of the iceberg here – I’m sure you’ve dug deeper.

    I must say I truly deplore her penis size commentary. My own post on that topic (which says that size doesn’t matter, expect in the long tails of the bell curve) is far and away my most read – it comes in second every day. I had to close the comments, or I would have thousands by now. And I hear from men frequently who are obviously totally normal, yet extremely insecure. This is an area where women can be extremely cruel, and Langley is rather heartless about it. So I confess I’m predisposed to dislike her.

  65. “Seriously, though, I’ve only touched the tip of the iceberg here – I’m sure you’ve dug deeper.”

    Aren’t you just full of puns today.

  66. @Badger
    Ha, I thought you’d pounce on the long tails bit.

  67. My Name Is Jim

    Kathy, it’s great to hear. IMO your husband is luckier than any manosphere pickup artist. With my wife it seems much the same, and I’m staying on my own personal growth efforts to avoid stagnating and keep it this way.

  68. My Name Is Jim

    As much as I find the passages like that distasteful, I can’t say I regretted buying and reading her books. The discussion of the way women’s affairs start and progress, and the incorrect ways men tend to react to the signals, are valuable and a great red pill men need to take. The best part is I read them before any trouble, and my wife shows none of the signs of infidelity. Forewarned is forearmed, and now we’ve talked about it and I made clear that I’d much rather feel the pain of being told than the living in limbo Langley describes.

  69. Kathy, I have no problems with my husband in that department. :) With my husband it is as you describe with your husband. I don’t even look at any other man.

    But I am curious about the mechanism, and Athol’s explanation makes a lot of sense.

  70. Butterfly Flower

    Which is why American men go after the 32% of women that aren’t obese/overweight trying to find in that percentage one that is also pretty, young, pleasant, and has an acceptable sexual history based on whatever number they use.

    If I’m such a hot commodity, then tell me why I should tolerate whiny Beta BS. I’ve yet to be convinced a Beta is worthy of my time. I have no baggage, I don’t want a guy with ridiculous amounts of emotional baggage.

    That Alpha who was flirting me up on Dalrock’s blog, Mr. Steve Johnson, he said he doesn’t linger in the past. He said it’s a burden. He’d prefer his past to not effect his future.

    Maybe that’s the attitude that attracts girls to Alphas?

    Although I gave that Steve Johnson guy a hard time; I have to admit, his ability to move on and let go of the past made me swoon. “Not whining all the time” is an attractive characteristic.

  71. Butterfly Flower

    Hey, Plain Jane, we missed you, but your writing style gives you away. If you’re going to sockpuppet, at least learn how to write in a different style, so it’s more convincing. I suggest spending some time on 4chan to improve your skills.
    Don’t feed the trolls, folks.

    I’m sick of this! Just because I don’t agree with the zeitgeist here doesn’t make me a troll! What do I have to do to prove I’m not a troll? [Well, I plan on starting a blog soon. I guess I could post a picture there or something. I'm certainly no plain jane. I can also post scans of my diary. I always wrote like this; I'm dyslexic, so there's a lot of pauses and unnecessary interjections. Perhaps I could post a link to my Fanfiction.net account? I'm only 19, I haven't really been an established figure on the internet for very long...]

    Anyway, I’ll never forgive Susan for accusing me of being a troll. It’s not like she’s ever given me any decent advice or assured me Beta guys aren’t the bitter jerks they appear to be. I’m a good girl, I deserve better than damaged goods that will treat me like trash. That’s what you Betas all sound like – used up old divorced men that think every girl will behave like their ex wife.

  72. this thing is brutal. breaks my heart. thanks for the link

    http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rotating.pdf

  73. Butterfly Flower

    Therefore in terms of the numbers game, it is harder for a woman to find a man she is head over heels for and who has all of the rest of the qualities she wants. It’s also hard for a man, but less hard because his field of attraction is bigger, so in terms of the numbers game it’s easier to find that woman. As to whether she will be attracted back to him, well that’s a different story.

    So the real problem is men are incapable of differentiating between a whore that’s pretending to love, and a decent good girl that genuinely loves.

    I highly doubt the average carousel rider is putting on an Academy Award winning performance when she’s screwing over Betas.

    I feel like this is an issue that could be solved via a simple flow chart. Maybe a small wallet sized flow chart so all you Betas with terrible judgment skills could carry it around everywhere and use it to avoid catastrophic relationships.

    “Let’s see here, lack of panties….yept, a whore.”
    “Blatantly flirting with other men in front of me…she’s a whore.”

    I love casually judging strangers, it’s fun. Like I-Spy but with personal issues.

  74. Butterfly,

    “So the real problem is men ”

    nope.

  75. @Haley
    For a woman trying to make a good match, having “head over heels” as a requirement just seems like an extremely tall order to fill, on top of finding a man who will be loving, loyal, strong, intelligent, good-humored, a good provider, a good father, and an enjoyable companion.

    Maybe this is something men just don’t understand…that a woman can feel deep love, respect, and affection for a man and want to stand by his side and still not feel overwhelmed by infatuation.

    I know I’m late weighing in on this. I think your thinking on this topic is very dangerous. We see far too many cases of women doing exactly what you are arguing for, and then either leaving their husbands without sex, with a trickle of sex, and/or divorcing them because “she don’t love him anymore”. I’ve provided quite a few examples of this on my own blog. So if you aren’t head over heels in love with the guy, don’t worry; some other woman will be able to fall this deeply in love with the guy. If you can’t feel the feeling and marry anyway you are harming two people; the man and the woman who would have loved him as he deserves to be loved. Only an incredibly selfish person would do such a thing, even if they rationalize that they are being noble by grinning and bearing it.

    Women do fall this hard for their husbands. I would say most do, at least initially. For those who can’t fall this hard for a man who feels the same, I think they need to examine what might be preventing them from experiencing this level of mutual love. Brushing it under the rug is a prescription for sin and misery.

  76. Typo. “she don’t love him anymore” should be “she doesn’t love him anymore”

  77. Brendan

    So the real problem is men are incapable of differentiating between a whore that’s pretending to love, and a decent good girl that genuinely loves.

    No.

    It just means that men are attracted to a higher % of men than women are to men. That is all it means. There is no “problem”. It is how men and women *are*.

  78. Brendan

    Correction: men are attracted to a higher percentage of women than women are to men.

  79. Butterfly Flower

    No.

    It just means that men are attracted to a higher % of women than women are to men. That is all it means. There is no “problem”. It is how men and women *are*

    So men just have lower standards than women?

    If it’s not a problem, then Betas shouldn’t be complaining whenever their lower standards gets them into a relationship with a “low standard” piece of work.

    Beta’s shouldn’t whine about carousel riders treating them poorly. Either Betas pursue nice girls, or they keep their stupid mouths shut.

    *Epiphany* do Betas date bad girls ’cause they get off on the drama? Are Betas, like, the male equivalent of girls that are attracted to jerks?

  80. Butterfly,

    So men just have lower standards than women?

    Yes, and women have ridiculous high standards. You cant blame everything on one gender, darling.

    Beta’s shouldn’t whine about carousel riders

    And you shouldnt whine about guys doing pump n dump either.

    *Epiphany* do Betas date bad girls ’cause they get off on the drama? Are Betas, like, the male equivalent of girls that are attracted to jerks?

    When a beta dates a bad girl its likely the best he was able to get. Give him a nice good looking girl and he will be Happy. With capital H. Players / alphas / jerks / assholes can handle girl drama. Betas dont.

  81. Retrenched

    Ah, yes. If only more men were clairvoyant mind readers capable of predicting women’s behaviors and feelings years in advance, there would be far, far fewer divorces and broken homes.

  82. @Butterfly Flower

    I’m puzzled by your strong antipathy to beta guys. Did a beta screw you over or what? What are you looking for in a guy? Are you in college? How are the alphas treating you?

  83. Butterfly Flower

    I’m puzzled by your strong antipathy to beta guys. Did a beta screw you over or what?

    You need to read my comments on Dalrock’s blog, specifically the post “Last One Down the Isle Wins: Part 1”

    I was randomly flamed and accused of being a Hamster spinner by alleged “nice guy” Betas. A Beta told me my chastity, faithfulness, and beauty are irrelevant traits; all the Betas agreed with him. At the moment I developed a fear of Betas decided they’re just not worthy of dating. I deserve better.

    It’s sad because my first happy go lucky comment was “Why won’t Betas flirt back with me?” You can notice slowly I came to the conclusion “Betas are bitter jerks that generalize women and won’t flirt back with me because they think I’m a whore…”

    What are you looking for in a guy? Are you in college? How are the alphas treating you?

    I’m not really all that picky; I just want a man to treat me well. Betas kind-of sound like the types of men that commit acts of physical harm against women. “All women are whores that will commit infidelity!” isn’t an attitude that makes me want to consider dating a Beta.

    Alpha’s are nice to me, I guess. I’m prettier than average – I could snag an Alpha if I wanted to. They flirt with me but I turn them down. I think they’re only interested in me because I’m attractive. But they’re generally nicer to me than Betas.

  84. My Name Is Jim

    If an analogy can be drawn between the sexes like that, then yes, I think you’re right Butterfly. Betas fall for drama queens like women your age fall for crass pickup artists. You’re right.

    The answer is game. Game is developing into a broad male self-improvement program that is the best thing positioned to help break betas out of this passivity that the feminist culture has trained them into. Men who feel a sense of being able to control their fate don’t whine and blame, they work to improve themselves. They are finding this out now, you have to ignore the complaining and spend your attention on those who are really trying to gain masculine charisma, even if they are still not all the way there yet and still working their way up. Reward behavior you want with your attention, punish behavior you don’t want with not giving it the attention it seeks from you. Any of this make sense I hope?

  85. Brendan

    So men just have lower standards than women?

    The way I think of it is that women have no attraction at all for the vast majority of men, whereas men have some degree of attraction to most women. This is in terms of “attraction”, not in terms of selecting a relationship partner. Men tend to be quite picky when selecting a relationship partner, and often very picky about committing to a particular woman. but they have a bigger p0ol to pick from because they are attracted to more women than women are to men. Women have a much smaller pool of men they are attracted to, and that’s before applying the other filters to screen on the basis of being a good relationship partner. It’s a numbers game that plays in favor of the guys, and it isn’t really subject to being changed. Women aren’t going to suddenly become attracted to most men, and men are not going to suddenly become unattracted to most women. Sex differences matter.

    If it’s not a problem, then Betas shouldn’t be complaining whenever their lower standards gets them into a relationship with a “low standard” piece of work.

    Picky for relationships, not picky in terms attraction. I don’t think you get that.

    Beta’s shouldn’t whine about carousel riders treating them poorly. Either Betas pursue nice girls, or they keep their stupid mouths shut.

    *Epiphany* do Betas date bad girls ’cause they get off on the drama? Are Betas, like, the male equivalent of girls that are attracted to jerks?

    No. In our culture, alphas get the desirable women, and the attentions of the next few tiers of women as well (due to the prevalence of casual sex and hooking up), while most betas simply get the table scraps of the SMP. A beta is generally happy to take what he can get when it comes to dating, because he is operating from a position of scarcity. I think you, as a young woman, who gets plenty of attention from men, can’t understand what it is like to be a beta male in today’s society, because a beta male of your age is getting zilch, generally speaking, in the marketplace. My guess is the only guys you notice in real life are alphas, and then you draw conclusions about how guys are doing in the market based on the alphas that are on our radar screen.

    Most men are betas (80% or more), by the way.

  86. Kathy

    “Most men are betas (80% or more), by the way”

    Ain’t nothing wrong with that either.. ;) A discerning woman will appreciate a good beta guy..

    I get sick and tired of the beta put downs…

    I hate cocky, smart arse, arrogant men who try and manipulate women.

    Never was attracted to these types..

    When I first met my husband, I liked him from the start.. He had beautiful blue eyes.. Intelligent, articulate and caring.. A really nice genuine guy. Never tried one on me… He was refreshing in his honesty ..

    I fell for him like a ton of bricks..

    Nothing has changed.. after fifteen years..

    He’s still doing it for me..

  87. Butterfly Flower

    No. In our culture, alphas get the desirable women, and the attentions of the next few tiers of women as well (due to the prevalence of casual sex and hooking up), while most betas simply get the table scraps of the SMP. A beta is generally happy to take what he can get when it comes to dating, because he is operating from a position of scarcity.

    Beautiful women aren’t automatically attracted to Alphas. That’s a cultural misconception that was started by Annette Funicello beach movies.

    There’s a lot of gorgeous Betas out there beautiful women would consider dating. Heck, my first post in the manosphere was: “Why do cute Betas act all weird when I try to flirt with them?”

    I think you, as a young woman, who gets plenty of attention from men, can’t understand what it is like to be a beta male in today’s society, because a beta male of your age is getting zilch, generally speaking, in the marketplace. My guess is the only guys you notice in real life are alphas, and then you draw conclusions about how guys are doing in the market based on the alphas that are on our radar screen.

    You made a lot of offensive assumptions about me. Betas seem to like that activity, huh?

    Yes, Alpha’s like me. A lot of men do. That doesn’t mean I lack empathy, or I’m a bad person. That doesn’t mean I want to date an Alpha. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t consider dating a Beta. It just seems like Betas wouldn’t consider dating me. They have low self-esteems and treat me badly because they’re damaged individuals that think all women are evil. When I’m nice to a Beta they get confused, assume I’m dishonest, and still treat me badly.

    Since I’ve never had a Beta treat me nicely, please stop telling me they’re good men. Maybe to other women, but not to me.

    The grass is always greener on the other side, huh? *giggles* I can have Alphas, but I continue to flirt with quiet Betas who treat me like sh!t.

    There’s this Alpha I’ve know for awhile that’s head over heels in love with me. It’s annoying because I have to keep deflecting his affections [I sort-of kissed him once so he thinks I secretly like him but I'm playing a head game - I know because he told me that himself]. I think I’ll be mature and realistic and give him a chance.

  88. Retrenched

    Funny how Butterfly judges “betas” based on a few anonymous Internet comments, yet thinks “betas” shouldn’t be bitter over the way women treat them IN REAL LIFE.

  89. Butterfly Flower

    Funny how Butterfly judges “betas” based on a few anonymous Internet comments, yet thinks “betas” shouldn’t be bitter over the way women treat them IN REAL LIFE.

    I judge Betas mostly on my Real Life experiences with them.

    When I flirt with Betas, they act cold, aloof, and confused.

    When I flirt with Alphas, they grin and ask me on a date. Oh, and there was that one time I was invited to a timeshare…

    I started reading the manosphere because I was confused. Why do quiet shy Beta guys act all weird when I try to flirt them up? What exactly am I, a beautiful young woman, doing wrong? Should I even waste my time trying to pursue these men that obviously aren’t interested in me for some personal reason?

    Do Betas unintentionally scare off all pretty girls that come their way?

  90. I don’t think BF has the foggiest idea as to what alpha and beta refer to or where the men in her life fall on the spectrum.

    It’s quite rich of her to accuse someone of making unfounded assumptions though.

  91. Butterfly Flower

    I don’t think BF has the foggiest idea as to what alpha and beta refer to or where the men in her life fall on the spectrum.

    So my bodybuilding guyfriend that drives a luxury car and tells me awful lines like: “I know you love me because I’m hot like you…” isn’t an Alpha?

    An Alpha could have one-itis. Well, sort-of. I know he pumps and dumps. I turn him down because I don’t want to be just another one of his girls. He told me that’s not the case with me but I never gave him a chance to prove it. I don’t trust him.

    Although he’s never been an outright jerk to me. Cocky, yes, but not a jerk. When we talk, he’s open and friendly. If I flirt with him, he doesn’t freeze up or act cold. He flirts back. He’s persistent and confident; sometimes I wonder if he’ll ever stop pursing me.

    Betas aren’t very persistent. & they’re certainly not confident.

  92. Brendan

    When I flirt with Betas, they act cold, aloof, and confused.

    When I flirt with Alphas, they grin and ask me on a date. Oh, and there was that one time I was invited to a timeshare…

    That’s because they’re betas, lol. I think Badger is correct here — you don’t seem to have a solid grasp of the meanings of the terms.

    An alpha is simply a guy who is naturally good with women — he is good at flirting, confident, fun, and attractive to most women, even if if isn’t physically “gorgeous” (looks matter, but alpha matters more). A beta is a guy who isn’t naturally good with women — he’s not a very good flirt, he has probably struck out quite a bit so he isn’t that confident, and so on.

    When you notice a beta “acting weird” when you are flirting with him, what he’s really doing is acting beta. That’s why women are not generally attracted to betas, regardless of their looks — they don’t interact with women in the same natural, fun, confident way as an alpha does.

    What I read you saying is that you’re annoyed that betas are betas.

  93. Retrenched

    @Brendan

    “A beta is a guy who isn’t naturally good with women — he’s not a very good flirt, he has probably struck out quite a bit so he isn’t that confident, and so on.”

    So when a girl flirts with a “beta” guy who hasn’t had a lot of luck with girls, he just concludes that she’s only being friendly, since he thinks no cute girl could ever like him. At least, not like that. While an “alpha” in a similar situation immediately picks up on the girl’s signals and goes from there.

  94. My Name Is Jim

    Yeah retrenched, that’s basically it. In college that was a lot of my problem right there. Had a somewhat abusive mom and came out of that feeling fairly chewed up. Of course that wasn’t the girls’ problem and wish I’d had more chutzpah earlier cause a few at that time were reasonable girlfriend prospects. Now that my mistrust has subsided I feel somewhat bad for having shut them out. Well I’m sure they found other guys who were more prepared for them, maybe alphas even.

  95. Pingback: Linkage is Good for You: Lazy Edition

  96. detinennui32

    Butterfly:
    There are lots of beta men out there. But most women don’t want them. Society, the media and in most cases even their parents and family members have conditioned betas to be “nice guys”. But most women don’t want nice guys. And no one ever tells them anything different. No one has ever told them what they’re doing wrong, which is coming across as nice, unassuming, and timid. Women don’t like timid, shy men because to a woman’s hindbrain that timidity and bashfulness comes across as fear and lack of confidence.

    @Retrenched: True, that. Let me add that the beta doesn’t even know she’s flirting or interested because he’s never been taught to pick up on signals or even what to look for. He doesn’t know what an IOI or IOD is. He’s also never been taught that most women won’t be interested because as Brendan points out so well: most men find most women somewhat attractive, but most men are not at all attractive to most women. It’s nothing personal; it’s just the way we are. Men are hardwired to “spread the seed” far and wide. Women are hardwired for hypergamy, i.e. “dating up”, or find the best man they can get. If I had known this and internalized it as a high school kid, I probably would have pressed much harder for dates with a lot more women as a younger man, and I would not have taken rejection so hard.

    @ Jim: I shudder when I look back on all the opportunity I missed in HS and college. I just did not get it. I had some good women staring me right in the face, and I could not read their signals. Looking back, I completely missed all of them.

  97. I also cringe thinking about all my missed opportunities – especially ones where one-itis prevented me from seeing a secondary opportunity starting me right in the face. Somebody should have told me to just chill the F out!

  98. udolipixie

    @Brendan
    female affairs are harder because the woman typically feels no remorse, feels entitled to have cheated, and has no intention or desire to work on the marriage (in stark contrast to the attitudes we typically see from male adulterers).

    You have the statistics or experiences with female vs male cheaters?

    I’ve known all kinds of men who felt no remorse because the sex was just physical & to them cheating is worse or only counts when there is emotions.

    I’ve known all kinds of guys who felt entitled to cheat if their wife wasn’t putting out at all or enough or didn’t want to try new things (anal, female/female/male threesome, facials). Four guys have cheated during each of their wives pregnancy. Several guys go to other women to get done what their wives won’t do (anal, swallow)

    The working out part/desire to work on it is oddly true however it’s been in my experiences only true if the guy didn’t have a prenup. So the guys were willing to work it out because in my opinion they didn’t want the divorce cost.

    Sidenote: It’s not my business to tell their wives these men are cheaters.

    @Butterfly
    So men just have lower standards than women?
    Yes they want a breathing body for sex.

    For relationships they want pretty (plus if she’s young), pleasant, no kids & not a slut.

    Women have higher standards for just sex. When doing no strings sex or hookups women seek only the most attractive guys.

    When dealing with relationships women seek a guy who fills out her compatibility requirements.

    Men don’t do this they think pretty let’s f*ck , if she’s pleasant then relationship, if she’s not a slut & no kids then serious relationship, and for marriage material that’s when they do a compatibility requirements like women do.

    Also add in the fact that people seek attractive partners and that men are attracted to more women while women are attracted to a smaller amount. That’s because of evolution with women evolving hotter while men do not improve appearance wise so the average woman is more attractive than the average man.

  99. NMH

    Ive seen this statement a number of times:

    “most men find most women somewhat attractive, but most men are not at all attractive to most women. ”

    I think that used to be true 30 years ago, before the obesity epidemic. Now, with almost all women (at my age level-mid 40′s) being fat or obese, there are very few sexually attractive women out there, and so now there as few women a man will be sexually attracted to, at a similar number to the few men that a woman will be sexually attracted to.

    It just never gets better for a man as he ages unless he is a supreme alpha, willing to spend a lot of time to meet women. We can thank McDonalds for that.

  100. Doug1

    Brendan–

    For women respect and being sexually attracted to is enough, it seems (probably based on pragmatism in that there simply aren’t enough tingle-inducing men to go around), but not for men.

    It’s enough for them to want to get married, have the wedding and have children. It’s often not enough given the American feminist zeitgeist telling women to follow their “hearts” to stay married all that long after those goals are reached.

  101. Doug1

    Brendan–

    On the female side of the ledger, as Langley notes in her book (and in this she is right, I think), most of the time the marriage just ends and no-one is the wiser — that is much of the time the husband never even realizes that she’s been having an affair and either is surprised with it during the divorce or never finds out about it, period. The point being, however, that female affairs tend to be had with the idea of replacing/upgrading the husband.

    Sometimes that last is true but I don’t think it usually is. Langely doesn’t say that’s what her almost 200 interviews with women who’d had affairs showed either. Instead the women were more trying to have the thrill of strong sex with strong emotions once again. They often thought their husbands were good men and fathers but had become boring. The women often thought they were just looking for some excitement again. Then when and if their affair turned strongly emotional, as it usually did if the sex was very good, then she’s start being COMPLETELY uninterested in sex with her husband, though maybe she’d still do it some, less often, but unenthusiastically to avoid his suspicions. If he then starts either moaning and begging and seeking to do her favors for sex, ie act even more beta, she often becomes even less sexually attracted to her husband.

    Langley then talks about a limbo stage that can go on for a good while, where there’s little sex between the married couple, but she can’t convince herself, yet, that the marriage is over and she should start divorce.

    Langley talks about only two cases where the woman wanted the marriage to be salvaged and stopped seeing her lover. In one the man started divorce proceedings, didn’t say he was much at fault, told his wife she was the one terribly at fault, and refused to back down on divorce unless she break off all contact with her lover, acknowledge her deep fault, and work hard on winning him back to her. In the other case the husband did similar things but wasn’t willing to give his wife another chance, even though she also really wanted it. He followed trough on the divorce.

    While I think Langley has discovered real patterns, to some considerable extent I think her sample has real sample bias. I imagine it was much easier to get women to talk about their infidelities when in fact they ended up divorcing the man the cheated on, than when the marriage stayed together and maybe greatly rebounded.

    I also suspect that the fact of cheating on and betraying their husbands, particularly if he’s clueless to it, or suspects but doesn’t press the issue, causes wives to lose respect for their husbands as lovers even more. That is I don’t think the problem would be as great if the wife had permission, and so did her husband, with limits and veto powers, and also a firm commitment to say married for the children and for a stable life partnership. The French of a certain educated class *bassically upper middle on up, seem to make it work more often than not.

    Seems a real risk though when wives do that, particularly within the belief systems of American feminist culture, and particularly given how much better American divorce 2.0 treats wives with children, than men.

  102. Doug1

    detinenui32–

    Attraction is not a choice.

    I don’t entirely agree with this meme that’s very common in the gameosphere these days. I think it can be partly a choice to choose to remain attracted and bonded to your spouse. I can be and is a choice to not follow your lust for someone else after the infatuation phase has worn off, but instead focus on the positive aspects of your partner, while also seeking to reward and hence enhance them, rather than the negative aspects.

  103. Doug1

    detinenuui32–

    Former carousel riders tingle. Mothers tingle. Daughters tingle. We as men need to satisfy the tingle and women need to be taught to recognize it for what it is. As a husband, I need to make sure my wife’s tingle is for me, and me alone. If I don’t, I risk her divorcing me in a legal system in which she has all the advantages.

    You’re writing as if female gina tingle is some force of nature that women are powerless to resist, if they feel it. That’s like saying men are powerless to resist and not dwell on or build romantic fables out of their lust for other hot or hotter looking women than their wife.

    Once the infatuation stage passes, leaving pair bonded commitment, it’s impossible for men to assure than his wife’s tingles will be only for him. He can assure that she still feels them for him. But she has to not build up and fantasize about the object of her tingles (particularly if he’s not some remote impossible object of lust like a movie star), or spent alone time with him, etc.

  104. Doug1

    Susan Walsh—

    I haven’t read her book or hung out at her forum, but I have read that her work may be largely an attempt to justify her own behavior, and that there is an element of revenge motivating her size queen stuff.

    ***

    There’s definitely a strong whiff of an agenda in her work. Oddly, she’s a mix of sex-positivity for women, which the manosphere hates, and anti-marriage talk, which the manosphere loves. Mostly, I see her work referenced as proof that women want alpha cock and will get it in any way possible.

    There is quite a bit of truth to this I think. However I do think she really has uncovered something in how female cheating, especially when it’s with a really good lover, tends to lead to strong emotional feelings for her lover and a dissolving of her pair bondedness with her husband, while that tends to not be the case with male cheating. Men want more than one lover simultaneously. Men are wired to naturally want to be polygamous. Women are wired for serial monogamy and hypergamy once the pair bondedness dissolves.

  105. Doug1

    Which is why American men go after the 32% of women that aren’t obese/overweight trying to find in that percentage one that is also pretty, young, pleasant, and has an acceptable sexual history based on whatever number they use.

    I dislike some of the exaggerated moaning that many betas in the manosphere do. The stats are for all American females or all between 15 and 65 type of thing. A much higher percentage of older women are overweight than those in the prime marriage years of 22-29.

  106. Doug1

    Butterfly Flower–

    Beta’s shouldn’t whine about carousel riders treating them poorly. Either Betas pursue nice girls, or they keep their stupid mouths shut.

    The problem is there aren’t enough non fat average or better looking good girl who are also nice, to go around for betas. Not nearly enough any more. Remember betas are the middle and upper middle of male sexual attractiveness. Some of them are better than that in marriage market attractiveness where earnings potential and wider society social status, and willingness to be faithful and committed, figure in as well.

    And no, not everyone commenting her is a beta.

  107. Doug1

    pixie–

    I’ve known all kinds of men who felt no remorse because the sex was just physical & to them cheating is worse or only counts when there is emotions.

    The thing is they’re right in those cases. Just sex cheating isn’t likely to lead men to dissolve their feelings of pair bondedness with and commitment to their wife in an otherwise pretty good marriage. Even when the guy develops emotions and love for his lover, men are naturally polygamous in nature. They rarely want to leave wives if they have kids. That’s not true at all of women who have affairs and fall in love. Usually it’s with a married man who want leave his wife for her. However as Brendan and I have said above, her falling in love with another man dissolves her feelings of sexual attraction to her husband and before too long all feelings of pair bondedness with him. Women are naturally inclined to be serially monogamous around an approximately 4 year cycle. So yeah a double standard on fidelity is entirely appropriate.

    Women’s feeling so intense jealousy and betrayal for male cheating is largely wrongly projecting the consequences for how she’d feeling sexually about her spouse onto him. Of course it’s also been greatly encouraged by feminism, going back in this case to first wave feminism.

    I’ve known all kinds of guys who felt entitled to cheat if their wife wasn’t putting out at all or enough or didn’t want to try new things (anal, female/female/male threesome, facials). Four guys have cheated during each of their wives pregnancy. Several guys go to other women to get done what their wives won’t do (anal, swallow)

    If she’s not putting out husbands who cite this as a reason certainly have a point. A wife’s not putting out for her husband is a terrible breach of marital understanding. Few men would marry women who they knew would stop putting out three years into marriage or whenever. So yeah he should be able to go outside of the marriage for sex if she’s giving him justg a trickle, or not doing things like bj’s and swallowing and anal if she did those things w/him before marriage. He should have an understanding with her though.

    American feminist marriage 2.0 with divorce 2.0 something she can wreck upon him any time at will for any reason at all, is a lousy deal for men. No man should even consider an American marriage without a prenup that mimics living together in the event of a divorce. Child support=also stealth alimony at sky high percentage rates of his after tax or take home pay, and losing all but a little time w/her kids all effectively at her whim, is bad enough. She should get half his investment savings plus alimony named as such in long marriages as well. Hell no.

  108. detinennui32

    @Doug1:

    When I say attraction is not a choice, I mean the initial attraction or animal lust. It just is. I’m persuaded you can’t control who you do and don’t find physically attractive. The choice is whether to act on it.

  109. Butterfly Flower

    The problem is there aren’t enough non fat average or better looking good girl who are also nice, to go around for betas. Not nearly enough any more. Remember betas are the middle and upper middle of male sexual attractiveness. Some of them are better than that in marriage market attractiveness where earnings potential and wider society social status, and willingness to be faithful and committed, figure in as well.

    So what you’re saying is, Betas would rather date hot bitchy girls? They purposely enter relationships doomed from the start?

    Hot good girls aren’t single for very long because they can easily get married to an attractive Alpha looking to settle down. Surprisingly, Alphas respect good girls. Betas seem incapable of differentiating; they just generalize all women.

  110. Butterfly Flower


    An alpha is simply a guy who is naturally good with women — he is good at flirting, confident, fun, and attractive to most women, even if if isn’t physically “gorgeous” (looks matter, but alpha matters more). A beta is a guy who isn’t naturally good with women — he’s not a very good flirt, he has probably struck out quite a bit so he isn’t that confident, and so on.

    When you notice a beta “acting weird” when you are flirting with him, what he’s really doing is acting beta. That’s why women are not generally attracted to betas, regardless of their looks — they don’t interact with women in the same natural, fun, confident way as an alpha does.

    What I read you saying is that you’re annoyed that betas are betas.

    I’m not a mind reader. How would I know if a Beta is responding positively to my flirting? They act all “stop talking to me, maybe if I look at my watch for a really long time, she’ll get the hint and go away…”

    I tried to crack this one hot Beta guy for weeks. We exchanged names, I told him he was handsome, I stood uncomfortably close to him. I maintained eye contact even though he obviously couldn’t be bothered to. I mean, he had to have known I was interested.

    After a few weeks of being mostly ignored, I gave up on the guy.

    Are you saying Betas expect women to do all the relationship work? They’ll be the real life equivalent of a Ken doll i.e. a good looking boyfriend that lacks any sort-of substance? Betas want a Barbie to drag them around on adventures?

    Actually, that sounds kind-of fun. I’m a flighty headstrong ditz like Barbie. I need a man like Ken to stand by my side while I attempt to become the world’s first Astronaut-Dentist-Fairy Princess. Ken doesn’t cheat on Barbie, he balances out her immaturity. I guess Barbie doesn’t cheat on Ken either, unless you make the best friends sleepover party Barbie doll experiment with the other best friends sleepover party dolls. ’cause that sometimes happens at sleepover parties. But I wouldn’t really consider that cheating. I doubt Ken would dump Barbie for kissing Summer.

  111. OffTheCuff

    I’m sick of this! Just because I don’t agree with the zeitgeist here doesn’t make me a troll! What do I have to do to prove I’m not a troll?

    Who said I was talking to Butterfly Flower?
    Not responding to messages addressed to other people would be a good start.

  112. udolipixie

    @Doug1
    So physical cheating with a partner that stills sleeps with his/her significant other is better than physical & emotional cheating that replaces the significant other?

    So if a woman wants to cheat the right way she should sleep with her lover and continue to sleep with her husband.

    For me it’d be better if both genders cheated along with emotions because at least the cheating means something because if you cheated just out of a desire and a lack of control most likely you’ll be continuing to repress it.

    With the emotional cheating I could just divorce since we’re no longer a couple and for future reference make sure my partner is emotionally bonded to me.

    This I don’t get:
    “Women’s feeling so intense jealousy and betrayal for male cheating is largely wrongly projecting the consequences for how she’d feeling sexually about her spouse onto him. Of course it’s also been greatly encouraged by feminism, going back in this case to first wave feminism.”

    I expect anyone male or female to feel jealous & betrayed. Explain what the woman feeling sexually means & how does feminism play into this?

    “If she’s not putting out husbands who cite this as a reason certainly have a point. A wife’s not putting out for her husband is a terrible breach of marital understanding. Few men would marry women who they knew would stop putting out three years into marriage or whenever. So yeah he should be able to go outside of the marriage for sex if she’s giving him justg a trickle, or not doing things like bj’s and swallowing and anal if she did those things w/him before marriage. He should have an understanding with her though. ”

    So my girls who have unsatisfying sex with their nice guy husbands, my girls with guys who they have bad sex with, and my girls whose guys don’t do the things they want are entitled to cheat as well.

    I should stop trying to make them feel guilty over their thinking of cheating since they only want physical especially my friend who imagines her husband is an ex of hers and even calls her husband the exes nickname in bad.

    Side note: I’m not responsible for their behavior nor am I responsible for telling their husbands just like I’m not responsible for telling the wives their husbands are cheating.

    Quite odd that people are entitled to cheat based on sexual unsatisfaction but I agree to disagree.

  113. Stephenie Rowling

    Doug1 That is actually a good point on udolipixie. I also have a female friend that is cheating on her husband because he hasn’t touched sexually her on years, I disagree with her choice ( I think he is depressed after having a huge downgrade on social position and that is why he is not interested on sex so she should be trying to help him and being understanding instead of cheating, but then again sex starving people usually do stupid things), but she is not planning on dissolving the marriage (she is catholic) neither she is planning on even having one lover to fall for, she is mostly dating different men once a month and continues to be a good mother (their kids are 9 and 11)and her husband continues to have a normal life with her, normal considering they are not having sex.
    So you will think she is doing the right thing I suppose.

  114. Kathy

    ” but she is not planning on dissolving the marriage (she is catholic) ”

    How considerate of her!

    ” neither she is planning on even having one lover to fall for, she is mostly dating different men once a month and continues to be a good mother (their kids are 9 and 11)and her husband continues to have a normal life with her, normal considering they are not having sex.
    So you will think she is doing the right thing I suppose.”

    Well, I will tell you you what she really is Stephanie..

    Nothing but a damn selfish slut who is putting herself first!!

    Women( or men) who cheat on their spouses are low lifes and not worth a dime..

  115. Brendan

    For me it’d be better if both genders cheated along with emotions because at least the cheating means something because if you cheated just out of a desire and a lack of control most likely you’ll be continuing to repress it.

    The point is that one is easier for a marriage to get past than the other. Both involve betrayal of trust, and that must be gotten past no matter what. In the case of an affair were the lover “replaces” the spouse romantically, it’s almost impossible for the marriage to get past that — she has basically already left her husband in body and heart by that point. So, yes, in both cases the cheatee spouse feels betrayed, but in the “romantic affair” case, the cheatee spouse is also abandoned. It’s simply worse for the marriage, in relative terms.

    I’m well aware that many women view the second case as “better” because it’s “more genuine and holistic than merely hedonistic sex”, but that just reflects the female perspective on sexuality, full stop. The reality is that because it becomes a replacement relationship, it’s a bigger threat to the marriage than “just sex” dalliances are. Both create situations of betrayal, but only one creates a de facto abandonment to go along with that betrayal, something which makes getting past the cheating almost impossible.

    This does make a significant difference with couples who might otherwise try to get past infidelity (e.g., have kids with each other). When I was going through my own divorce, the counselor/therapist pretty much told me point blank that female affairs are generally fatal because they often replace the old relationship with the husband. If the cheatee husband wants to “work on the marriage”, I was told, the only way to look at it is as a brand new relationship, starting at square one, where you have to woo her again. Fancy that — wooing someone who has emotionally and sexually abandoned you. Mind you, not many guys are interested in doing that (and even if they are it generally doesn’t work — counselor admitted that, too), so these situations tend to crash and burn. And all of that is assuming that the betrayal of trust issue, which is present in all affairs, can be gotten past.

  116. udolipixie

    @Doug1

    One is the immediate dissolvement & the other is just adding pressuring if you care about dalliances or immediate dissolvement if you don’t condone any cheating.

    To me it’s not about physical & emotional cheating being more genuine.

    It’s cheating both are equally awful to me.

    It’s about it being more easy to prevent rather than sex dalliances since dalliances are just physical and aren’t driven by emotions. They are a constant need rather than an emotional outlet that wasn’t filled.

    To me physical & emotional is easier to prevent but harder to recover from hence why I prefer physical & emotional.

  117. Brendan

    To me physical & emotional is easier to prevent but harder to recover from hence why I prefer physical & emotional.

    It’s not easier to prevent, in my opinion. The point is that for many women sexuality and emotionality are intertwined. So if there are sexual problems in the marriage, they will lead to emotional and sexual problems for the woman, and sexual problems for the man (less intertwined). The root of the problem is usually the same, but it plays itself out in women in a way that is harder to overcome.

  118. modernguy

    I think there was a very important but overlooked point made during the show: that men are spineless these days and women are surprised to see to what extent they are and then walk all over them. But what everyone is missing is the reason, and it’s mentioned obliquely by Langley: because men are afraid of being alone, and they become dependent on the female.

    She is a little off, in that the source of insecurity in men these days about women is a direct consequence of the way women are behaving. Men, instinctively, have become aware that women cannot be trusted or depended on anymore to be sexually or romantically faithful. This is in turn a consequence of sexual liberation. Women have the freedom to jump from man to man as they wish, and it’s directly causing a feeling of insecurity in men because they know that they have very little freedom of action lest she simply break off the relationship and go to someone else. It creates a neuroticism based in the fear of being disposed of or cheated on which is the exact antithesis of manly “confidence” and nonchalance that women are usually attracted to.

  119. udolipixie

    @Brendan

    Not to me considering that it’s just physical for guys.

    So even when there aren’t sexual problems the need to seek variety, the male biological urge, and sexual urges aren’t easier to prevent since they are a constant.

    It’s much easier to resolve an emotional or sexual issue in the marriage than try to fight the constant just physicals issues.

  120. modernguy

    And this is not ultimately offset by game either, although it certainly helps. But one of the fundamental tenets of game is the attitude of abundance and anti-oneitis, which is a direct countermeasure to the fickleness and unfaithfulness of women in a sexually open society. Furthermore I think it hints at the possibility that men are the ones with an intrinsic desire for monogamy, while women have an intrinsic desire to keep their options as open as possible.

  121. udolipixie

    @modernguy
    “because men are afraid of being alone, and they become dependent on the female.”

    Most members of both genders fear being alone.

    I don’t know why though I doubt that any gender is dependent on the other because neither gender needs each other.

    Men can get hookers/fwb/booty calls/one night stands for sex, a foreign wife for relationships, female friends/guy friends for companionship, surrogates/adoption/pets for kids, and can hire a nurse to take care of them, a cook to make food, and a maid to clean.

    Women can do the same.

    “Men, instinctively, have become aware that women cannot be trusted or depended on anymore to be sexually or romantically faithful. ”

    That’s a people thing not a gender thing.

    The only thing sexual liberation brought was women are now free to get up & go like men instead of suck it up & stick around like in the past.

  122. udolipixie

    @modernguy
    “which is a direct countermeasure to the fickleness and unfaithfulness of women in a sexually open society. Furthermore I think it hints at the possibility that men are the ones with an intrinsic desire for monogamy, while women have an intrinsic desire to keep their options as open as possible.”

    Game has always existed it was just never marketed.

    It’s not a countermeasure just a way to get attractive girls.

    Fickleness & unfaithfulness is a people thing.

    Odd though that you think the only situation which men can be monogamous in is one where their partners are equally as unfaithful, fickle, and have options.

    If men had the intrinsic desire to be monogamous the why do men seek variety more than women?

  123. “The only thing sexual liberation brought was women are now free to get up & go like men instead of suck it up & stick around like in the past.”

    Here’s the apex fallacy on display. Throughout modern history, men as a whole have never been able to “get up and go” in modern history. When was there EVER a massive wave of men abandoning their wives that was anything like what we see today with 70% of divorces initiated by women and, as Dalrock has shown through statistical analysis, a large portion of those divorces being not for any legitimate cause?

  124. “If men had the intrinsic desire to be monogamous the why do men seek variety more than women?”

    Monogamy does not mean lack of desire for other people – and I think this is where Langley commits a fallacy – it means one has committed himself or herself to one sex partner.

    Humans, men and women, both have conflicting sexual strategies within their own programming. Survival value and replication value are often at odds with one another, the old “lover vs fighter” that has provided much poetic grist over the years.

    The gender difference is where the surplus desire comes from – for women, it tends to come from men of higher status than her mate; for men, it comes from women of variety (different from his mate) and availability. Availability is key; from a social-psych perspective, a mate-bonded male can’t afford to spend resources to pursue a woman who isn’t easily available or he will upset the apple cart with his current mate.

  125. modernguy

    @udolipixie

    “Most members of both genders fear being alone.”

    Maybe so, but in general women have much more choice and opportunity compared to men. The only men that get “fwb/booty calls/one night stands for sex” are the kinds of guys who tend to have a number of women on the line and generally don’t have to worry about it. Like I said, one of the central tenets of game is to develop an abundance of women interested in you. This to offset the (high) chance that any one women will flake or break off and chase after someone else. As to hookers, most men are not interested in hookers, they would much rather have faithful girlfriends.

    “That’s a people thing not a gender thing.”

    It’s absolutely a gender thing when you’re talking about how men feel about the behaviors of the typical girl these days.

    “The only thing sexual liberation brought was women are now free to get up & go like men instead of suck it up & stick around like in the past.”

    And they get up and go a lot more than men tend to. Like they mentioned in the show: women are the ones to end a relationship 70-75% of the time, and I bet that doesn’t count the times that women deliberately sour the mood so badly that the man is pretty much forced to break it off himself.

  126. “Maybe so, but in general women have much more choice and opportunity compared to men.”

    I don’t really concur with this. It’s an ugly truth, but after a woman is about 30, her chance to snag a functional and rewarding LTR goes into a rapid decline. The guys who want to be fathers have snapped up younger women
    and it’s doubly difficult if she has kids herself. When a woman is young and nubile, she has dozens of men orbiting who’d be eager to be her boyfriend – but nature being the cruel jokester it is, she wants the guys who don’t want to have a relationship with her, and the guys who ask her for a relationship she finds less attractive because of it.

    It’s all a big circle of paradoxes – women want guys who don’t want to be in a relationship to all of a sudden want to be in a relationship with her, and guys want women who are sexually continent and buttoned up until she gets into his bed. It’s nature, and we can’t eliminate it, but by understanding it we can learn to mollify and bypass some of our conflicting instincts.

    We read about cases in the manosphere all the time where a woman cuckholds her husbands, then cashes out her half to go live with/marry the boyfriend, but we need to account for selection bias; Athol claims that only 3% of affairs become LTRs after a divorce.

  127. udolipixie

    @Badger
    Men had the ability that doesn’t mean they exercised it.

    In the past why would they? They have an attractive housewife dependent on them.

    In modern times it’s be a disadvantage to divorce since divorces favors them

    If I were a man I’d just cheat & stick for the kids instead of lose most my money.

    Just because men don’t initiate doesn’t mean they don’t want to.

    What do you consider legitimate cause?

    The top reasons were:

    infidelity by the husband

    roving eye (made me laugh)

    financial independence (that was sad…being stuck with a guy because you couldn’t earn enough)

    feel in love with another man (no fixing that)

    family pressures (basically didn’t like his family..made me wonder how annoying/invading were they)

    boredom

    sexual incompatibility (if a man cheating because his wife doesn’t put out or do certain things is acceptable so should a woman divorcing because the sex is bad or she isn’t willing to do certain things).

    The only one I see not legitimate is boredom and roving eye.

    “it means one has committed himself or herself to one sex partner.”
    I wasn’t talking about desire but pursuing that desire.

    You can’t commit to one sex partner but call variety seeking cheating just dalliances or belittle the betrayal of them.

    @modernguy
    With game men have the same opportunities & choices women & certain men naturally have.
    Most men consider a girlfriend a hooker.

    The way men feel about typical girl behavior is the same way women feel about typical guy behavior.

    So it’s only a gender thing based on whose view it is.

    Do you consider the times men deliberately soured the mood so women have to break it off?

  128. udolipixie

    @Badger

    Exactly every woman is Christmas cake.

    After a girl turns 25 no guy really wants a piece.

    There’s nibbles but nothing serious like a ltr and marriage is a laugh.

    Opportunities & choices seesaw between the genders but guys have the same amount of power when women are young if they know game.

  129. “Men had the ability that doesn’t mean they exercised it.”

    So men had the ability but didn’t exercise it…now women have the ability and are exercising it. Are you trying to make an argument that women have less morality or self-control than men?

  130. udolipixie

    @Badger

    Not at all.

    That’s what you’re reading.

    If you looked under that sentence you’d see

    “In the past why would they? They have an attractive housewife dependent on them.

    In modern times it’s be a disadvantage to divorce since divorces favors them

    If I were a man I’d just cheat & stick for the kids instead of lose most my money.

    Just because men don’t initiate doesn’t mean they don’t want to.”

    Nothing about morality or self control but rather:

    In the past there was no need to they benefited.

    In modern times it’s not worth the cost of divorce with laws favoring women.

    How you’d get I was making an argument about morality & self control?

  131. Stephenie Rowling

    @Kathy

    Trust me Kathy I know. I tried to dissuaded her before the affair started with the first one, because I saw it coming a mile away, didn’t listened to me and now that she has tasted the “forbidden fruit” I doubt she will quit anytime soon. *le sigh*

    “Athol claims that only 3% of affairs become LTRs after a divorce.”

    Totally true affairs are born with someone in the middle (the wife/husband) without that element half of the attraction dissipates and then there is nothing there to work up. That is why I always say that is better to resist the temptation because the attraction will wane or at least take that as a sign that the marriage needs work and work in it, cheating rarely pays off and it only brings pain to everyone involved. Not worth it, ever, YMMV.

  132. modernguy

    @udolpixie

    “With game men have the same opportunities & choices women & certain men naturally have.”

    This is a fantasy. The internet blows success stories out of proportion. The actual prevalence of guys with game good enough to enable them to be as promiscuous as the averagely attractive woman could be if she wanted is vanishingly small. Although, promiscuous women would love to think that game was that kind of magic wand for no other reason than that if everyone is promiscuous they can’t be singled out for what everyone else is doing.

    “Most men consider a girlfriend a hooker.”

    I don’t know what planet you come from, but on this one men are generally burdened with antiquated notions of romanticism and love until they get burned a few times getting involved with actual women, and then turn into cynics . Granted, the kinds of guys that do treat women like hookers are usually the kinds of guys women are interested in. So it’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

  133. modernguy

    “The way men feel about typical girl behavior is the same way women feel about typical guy behavior.”

    Except “typical girl” in this case is much closer to typical in the real world whereas “typical guy” means typical of the small subset of men that women find sexually attractive.

  134. modernguy

    “Do you consider the times men deliberately soured the mood so women have to break it off?”

    What do you consider “deliberately souring the mood”? Do you know how many guys would jump at the chance for regular sex with a normally attractive woman who are not getting any? Why would they deliberately sour the mood?

    Your comments seem to originate from that remote cluster in outer space called the Apex Fallacy.

  135. udolipixie

    @modernguy
    1. Even if it’s a fantasy opportunities & choices seesaw between the genders but older guys have the same amount of power women had when they were younger. Plus older guys get to date & marry women 10-20 years younger. Not to mention when women had power they only had an advantage in getting dates & sex easily not commitment.

    2. I’m from Earth where bitter guys do consider a girlfriend a hooker and if they could get one they’d treat her like one because of their bitterness and a need for revenge.
    So the guys that do date treat women like hookers & the guys that want to date want to treat them like hookers.

    3. Typical guy behavior is:
    a bitter virgin
    a jaded guy
    a player
    a misogynist
    an inexperienced, insecure, non confident shy guy who who claims those traits make him a nice guy
    a guy who’s nice until he hears no
    a pua who lowers a girl self-esteem alpha to make her more open to his advances & make her seek validation
    a misogynist masquerading as a traditional guy

    4. What do you consider “deliberately souring the mood”? The same things you consider a woman does to sour the mood.
    The get her to dump you has been used by plenty of men.

  136. udolipixie

    @modernguy

    For girl there’s a guy tired of sleeping with her.

  137. Pixie,

    Your last long comment is off the donkey rails. Talk about misandry.

  138. udolipixie

    Misandry?

    Where do you get man hate from?

    Gender power do switch from young women to older men.

    It’s jerks & cynics who consider a girlfriend a hooker.

    Typical guy behavior is typical negative behavior and it’s not seen in only a small number of men.

    Men who are tired of sleeping with the same woman can deliberately sour the mood.

    Where’s this man hate?

  139. Butterfly Flower

    @udolipixie:

    I get the feeling most of the Betas here think they’re above “regular guy” jerk behavior. No, no they’re not.

    I’m from Earth where bitter guys do consider a girlfriend a hooker and if they could get one they’d treat her like one because of their bitterness and a need for revenge.

    So the guys that do date treat women like hookers & the guys that want to date want to treat them like hookers.

    That is one of my main grievances with Betas. They tend to generalize all women.

    I think some of them might possibly be scaring off good girls because they set off “abusive relationship” warning bells.

    Here’s the first sign of an abuser as quoted from a “Domestic Violence Prevention” PDF:

    1. He speaks disrespectfully about former partners
    It’s not uncommon for people to have hard feelings after a break-up but be careful if his anger toward a previous partner (or partners) is unusually bitter and you notice any of these things:

    ‘ He describes an ex-partner in degrading or insulting ways
    ‘ He starts this soon after you meet him
    ‘ He paints himself as a victim of abuse by her
    ‘ He claims she falsely accused him of abuse
    ‘ He sees all problems in their relationship as her fault and accepts no responsibility
    ‘ He praises you for being better than she was
    ‘ He claims you are the first woman who really understands him

    I’m not saying Betas will commit domestic violence. I’m just saying some Betas inadvertently set off many Red Flags.

  140. udolipixie

    I still want to know where is this man hate when I just point out that:

    power shifts in dating

    jerks treat women like hookers & cynics want to and cynics are the majority

    typical guy behavior is negative behavior that the majority of men display

    that if modernguy also takes into account the times men sour the mood so the women breaks it off since he takes the vice versa into account.

    @ButterflyFollower
    You’ll have a hard time finding a guy whose not bitter.

  141. udolipixie

    @ButterflyFollower
    Most young guys are bitter & most old women are bitter due to power shifts.

  142. Butterfly Flower

    You’ll have a hard time finding a guy whose not bitter.

    You need to read the vitriol some of these “Good Betas” spew at me.

    My statements are misinterpreted and dissected and whenever I try to defend myself things just get worse. I’m nice girl that DOESN’T want to date Alphas but these Betas all seem to think I’m some terrible evil “Hamster Spinner”.

    Literally, I started reading the manosphere sympathizing with Betas.

    …now I can’t do that anymore.

  143. Butterfly Flower

    Do you think all Betas are like the ones on the manosphere?

    I’ve stop thinking about shy quiet guys are being cute.

    Am I smart or naive for generalizing all Betas?

  144. udolipixie

    @ButterflyFollower

    Hard to sympathize when you’re seen as part of the problem and that only a few men are part of the problem as well.

    Not to mention any pointing out that the majority of men can & often behave similarly to the majority of women who are the problem is called misandry.

  145. udolipixie

    @ButterflyFollower

    Naive.

    Few things are universal across a group of people.

    Most guys I met who the manosphere would consider beta refuse to see that men share equal blame as well.

    They write off womens bad experiences with guys as their experiences because they picked bad guys but a guys bad experiences with women is because most women aren’t quality.

    It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    Plus you can’t say anything negative about guys & anything negative about men they always say women are worse.

    I don’t know what you men act like this on here.

    Do you mean false accusations when you don’t agree on their views?

    Because that’s a people thing not a beta thing.

  146. Butterfly Flower

    @udolipixie:

    What I don’t get is why Betas seem to think they’re entitled to good women.

    Nothing worth having ever comes easily.

    It sounds like they don’t want to bother with relationship work.

  147. udolipixie

    From a guy:

    It’s a man’s world so we should get all the benefits of picking and choosing the best women. Women should judge on character while we judge on attraction.

    In summary: A lot of guys think they are entitled to any woman they’re attracted to regardless of how she feels about it. It shows itself when they get rejected.

    From me:
    I find it odd how some guys approach based on attraction but don’t want to get rejected based on attraction.

    Especially since they don’t approach women they find physically unattractive & sexually unappealing to see if she’ll treated them nicely so they will let that attraction grow.

    Also odd is how some guys think a girl should forgo attraction because he’ll treat her well when they don’t forgo attraction for a girl who’ll treat them well.

    Kind of like how some guys rate womens looks but when it comes to dating they say there aren’t any leagues but they go after the ones they rated attractive.

  148. udolipixie

    @ButterflyFollower
    When people feel they are disadvantaged they think they are infallible and the ones who do have faults only exist in few numbers.

    Don’t go after betas then.

    Or go foreign.

  149. Jimmy Hendricks

    @Butterfly Flower
    “What I don’t get is why Betas seem to think they’re entitled to good women.”

    For most of their lives, guys have been told by their mothers, teachers, media, etc. that the way to get a good woman is to be nice, understanding, supplicating, deferring, etc. When they find out they’ve essentially been lied to their whole life, that’s where the bitterness comes from.

  150. BF,

    “Do you think all Betas are like the ones on the manosphere?

    I’ve stop thinking about shy quiet guys are being cute.”

    One of the reasons people think you are trolling is that you continue to equate “beta” with “shy quiet guy” and “alpha” with “extrovert” even after you’ve been set straight multiple times. If you don’t stop inventing your own meanings for words we’re going to have to take your lucky charms away.

    I’ve deleted your last comment that (again) equated “Betas” with future wife-beaters.

  151. Mr. Quincy

    Men compartmentalize better than women? Uh huh.

    Women are notorious for having the guy that pays their bills, the guy that fixes things around the house, the guy that lends an ear, and the guy that fucks their brains out. All of which are different guys.

    If that’s not expert compartmentalization, I don’t know what is.

    I don’t know if it’s the main reason, but a MAJOR reason women cheat is because they want GOOD sex not just sex. “Just sex” is worthless to most women. Most men will settle for even bad sex, because any sex that produces even a genital sneeze (God bless you!) will give a guy relief from his nagging d!ck. Women often can’t get off at all unless the sex is good. Good sex is passionate sex plain and simple. Most people, whatever they have between their legs, will get hooked on it, both emotionally and physically. That’s why it’s good.

    I’ve BEEN that average frustrated chump with oneitis back in the day. I’ve also BEEN that guy (with my d!ck literally still steaming from the fucking) laying next to a woman, who’s, on the cell with her husband, boyfriend, whatever, telling stories up the yin yang to cover her trail. And the only emotions involved, for either of us, were lust and the thrill from the danger of getting caught. Married women in their thirties are some of the horniest, sluttiest creatures on earth. And they’re often easier to bed than single women. If they were really looking for an emotional bond I seriously doubt that would be the case. In fact, married MILFs were the first types of women I really started having sexual success with, probably because I found it impossible to have any feelings other than lust for a woman who was cuckolding her husband.

    And really comparing the average cheater with Eliot Spizter, Bill Clinton and Arnold S is ridiculous. These guys would still cheat even if they could legally marry 72 virgins. That 73rd piece of ass would be having their love child. The average guy (the vast majority of men) has nothing at all in common with these guys other than a penis. The ordinary guy often does become quite emotional about the other woman.

    If men have an edge in emotional compartmentalization it’s slimmer than you think. And most of that is due to the bullshit socialization that Ms Langley is talking about.

  152. Pingback: Blogging Under The Influence | The Badger Hut

  153. Stephenie Rowling

    Mr. Quincy.

    You are talking about sluts there no regular women, this sluts married out of many reasons but not because they were in love with their husbands. For them men are tools for things: money, sex , status and so on, this women are the minority, if that wasn’t the case women wouldn’t leave their husbands for the new lovers of for the chance of dating will they?

  154. My Name Is Jim

    Leykis should’ve asked Langley how many inches a guy’s penis has to be to keep his wife from sneaking off and having sex with her friend’s husband. It would be fun to hear her fumbling for a response. Then follow up in all earnestness … “But how many? Seven? Eight? I don’t want to get divorced and need to give the implant doctor a number.” Etc. See how long you can keep it up (no pun intended).

  155. Mr. Quincy

    Hey Stephenie.

    I appreciate your opinion. However, I’m speaking from personal experience. And in my experience the average woman who marries for love will cheat once she becomes disillusioned about her marriage. And a lot of women don’t marry the man they truly love. They marry the man who will marry and provide for them. There’s a shitload of women who do this.

    And I really don’t understand your last point. LOTS of women ARE leaving their husbands. And another man is OFTEN in the picture. So what are you talking about? What you don’t seem to realize or admit is that when women do cheat, they tend to rationalize or excuse their cheating to absolve themselves of responsibility. The so called “good girl” will cheat when she can justify in her own mind or rationalize her behavior as somehow “his fault.” I’ve ran into and up in TOO many women at work or at church for god sake for me to believe they are the distinct minority.

    If it’s a minority, it’s a big fucking minority. Emphasis on fucking.

  156. @Doug1
    You’re writing as if female gina tingle is some force of nature that women are powerless to resist, if they feel it.
    Sure they can resist… if they want. Problem is, our culture is teaching them that they should not. That’s the message of EPL and similar movies: Follow your tingle, wherever it leads you, because only this can make you truly happy. And the divorce court says: Go for it, girl, we are on your side!

    @Butterfly Flower
    An Alpha could have one-itis.
    Yeah, but often it lasts only a week or two… :-(

    I’m not a mind reader. How would I know if a Beta is responding positively to my flirting?
    You ask them. Seriously.

    I tried to crack this one hot Beta guy for weeks. … … …
    Well, maybe *this one* was not interested. Just because someone is Beta, it does not mean he has to fall in love with you, right?

    Here’s the first sign of an abuser as quoted from a “Domestic Violence Prevention” PDF: … … …
    I see you are very bitter at this moment. I would not recommend reading much psychology in this state of mind, because you will everywhere see what you want to see. It’s like when a hypochondriac reads a medical textbook; suddenly he sees all the symptoms on himself. So you will now see all the signs on everyone you choose to dislike.

    If you would judge yourself equally harshly, how many red flags would you have at this moment? Aren’t *you* speaking about men (or Beta men) disrespectfully, describe them in degrading or insulting ways, paint yourself as a victim of abuse, see all problems as their fault and accept no responsibility? Should we now run away screaming?

  157. Kathy

    Well, I have never cheated in fifteen years of marriage MQ.
    I love my husband, and have never entertained thoughts of having sex with another man. He does it for me!!

    As a result I have developed a deep bond with my husband..

    My own feeling here is that the more a couple have sex the more happier they are.. The deeper the bond becomes. The less chance of a woman straying.
    It’s worked for us. Too many people neglect the physical side of their marriage when they have children.. Well, it’s not the husband, really. The wife becomes too caught up in the kids and neglects her husband..
    I find that very sad..
    The relationship falters without that physical bonding.

  158. “Sure they can resist… if they want. Problem is, our culture is teaching them that they should not. That’s the message of EPL and similar movies: Follow your tingle, wherever it leads you, because only this can make you truly happy.”

    THIS. This is the real frustration of the part of the manosphere that isn’t overcome with sometimes-justifiable anger. Getting upset at women (or men) for their feelings and urges is silly – that is deep hindbrain programming that can’t be undone. The issue is that a big slice of culture is dedicated to glorifying one side’s urges as right and proper and sowing dysfunction by following them.

    Effective societies set up cultural structures and expectations that channel, sublimate or shame these impulses so that people don’t dare act on them. (These institutions are both intellectual, like the law, and subrational, like shaming and ostracism.)

  159. “My own feeling here is that the more a couple have sex the more happier they are.. The deeper the bond becomes. ”

    That’s a physiological fact, the chemical release re-ups the bonding feedback loop. But I think the cause and effect goes both ways – a happier couple will have sex more often too.

    “The wife becomes too caught up in the kids and neglects her husband..
    I find that very sad..”

    It is sad. I pointed it out in this post:

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/03/26/marriage-is-part-of-parenting/

    I understand how this process can happen “by accident” (like any form of marital decline can) but as I point out in the post I am shocked by the nonchalance or even giggly attitude that some people take towards it. We need to back off on the Cult of the Child in this country so parents don’t feel their entire waking duty is to adulate their kids.

  160. Mr. Quincy

    @Stephenie Rowling
    “May 24, 2011 at 5:02 am

    Doug1 That is actually a good point on udolipixie. I also have a female friend that is cheating on her husband because he hasn’t touched sexually her on years, I disagree with her choice ( I think he is depressed after having a huge downgrade on social position and that is why he is not interested on sex so she should be trying to help him and being understanding instead of cheating, but then again sex starving people usually do stupid things), but she is not planning on dissolving the marriage (she is catholic) neither she is planning on even having one lover to fall for, she is mostly dating different men once a month and continues to be a good mother (their kids are 9 and 11)and her husband continues to have a normal life with her, normal considering they are not having sex.
    So you will think she is doing the right thing I suppose.”

    Stephenie, it’s odd that you’d object to what I said when you have indicated with this post and others that you know women engaged in just the type of behavior I’m talking about. I don’t see you referring to them as sluts.

    Why do you have a different reaction to what I’m saying than the friend you mention in this post?

  161. Stephenie Rowling

    Mr Quincy.
    Actually when Kathy called her slut I didn’t corrected her, I do agree she is a slut and I had other countless of married girlfriends tempted by other men that took that opportunity to talk to their husbands and fix what was missing and sent the other guy away or cut contact with him with not even a promise of a kiss.

    The thing is that you have the same problem cads have, you are based on self selection your assumptions of all married women, all married women are cheating or will cheat, you already mentioned that since you saw how easy was to get them in bed you kept trying, do you have a scientific measure? Like of 100 married women I approached with the intention of sex all 100 say yes?
    You are also forgetting that people gravitate over similar people, my slut wife friend was married for 12 years with no cheating, when she lived close to her very catholic friends and was an avid church goer, but she moved to her husband’s town were many of the married women were cheaters with no social consequences. In fact the man my friend slept the first with was “recommend” by one of her married neighborhoods that already slept with him and well herd mentality kicked in with dire results, she doesn’t have a lot of character either BTW, I saw her last year and she has become an entirely different person, that is the reason women that cheated on the past were usually separated from other women (the scarlet letter) I wouldn’t be surprised that you are on a particular hot spot, but don’t believe that this is the norm for every woman and don’t underestimate the environment, men are pack creatures, women are herd creatures, you are on a particularly slutty herd as off now, not all the female herds are like that, YMMV.

  162. OffTheCuff

    Out of all the discussion, I’m amazed how much of a window everyone seems to have on the their friends’ sex lives, especially married people. I used to think that people kept this stuff private, so I did… but again, I was living a life that nobody else does.

    I’m a bit more open these days, and know a *tiny bit* more (and it’s not good news — it’s all strife) but not to the extent that you do.

  163. “Out of all the discussion, I’m amazed how much of a window everyone seems to have on the their friends’ sex lives, especially married people. I used to think that people kept this stuff private, so I did… but again, I was living a life that nobody else does.

    I’m a bit more open these days, and know a *tiny bit* more (and it’s not good news — it’s all strife) but not to the extent that you do.”

    Don’t forget you have to account for the fact that nobody – you, me, your wife’s mom, your beer buddy, whatever – really knows what’s going on in another person’s relationship. Susan just talked about this in her latest thread – “rich become poor.” A good reason not to get envious, and a good reason not to get too didactic.

  164. Stephenie Rowling

    Sorry Badger I did it again. Please don’t publish that one

  165. Stephenie Rowling

    Take Two!
    OffTheCuff

    Trust me I wish sometimes people wouldn’t just tell me info I was happier not knowing, sadly my friends usually know I’m reliable, good listener and discreet, and like I mentioned above I have a hard time cutting up conversations. So I’m screwed on the other hand I have a good clear picture of human nature so I can say that not everyone is a saint, but not everyone is the devil. Some of my players male friends specialized on married women (one of them even liked them pregnant) and not even they agree that all married women cheat, it depends on many factors: character the strength of the relationship, the quality of the female friends,, this is actually good for both genders strong friendships with member of the same gender are almost all the time based on the same values, I only have one cheater friend who I lost contact for years and who aside from trying to help to repair her marriage because I saw it tumbling I kept at arms lenght, is not prejudice by a visceral disgust for what she is doing, specially because in my country divorce is not as traumatic for men, she could let him go so he might have a chance with another woman and she can be happy jumping the carousel, of course according to Doug1 that is worst for the kids but then is that so?
    I mean this things never remain a secret forever if any of the kids find out or hear the wrong thing they will grow up not trusting anyone because their supposedly virtuos family was based on a HUGE lie, I would like to know the statistics of how kids that stay with cheating parents fare later in life.

  166. “Sorry Badger I did it again.”

    Are you Britney Spears?

  167. Stephenie Rowling

    Yep I’m a Idiot…the thing is I have a wordpress blog on spanish and this stupid computer keeps logging me without me noticing. Let’s make a deal just ban forever my real name and assume I did it again ;)
    I’m not Britney Spears I’m 1/2 pound lighter than her…that whale :p

  168. Mr. Quincy

    @Stephenie Rowling
    Mr Quincy.
    Actually when Kathy called her slut I didn’t corrected her, I do agree she is a slut and I had other countless of married girlfriends tempted by other men that took that opportunity to talk to their husbands and fix what was missing and sent the other guy away or cut contact with him with not even a promise of a kiss.

    If you find this wench so distasteful, why do you still refer to her as a friend? I don’t tend to hang around people I don’t like just because we used to be cool in the past. Have you told her to her face she’s a slut? If not why not?

    The thing is that you have the same problem cads have, you are based on self selection your assumptions of all married women, all married women are cheating or will cheat, you already mentioned that since you saw how easy was to get them in bed you kept trying, do you have a scientific measure? Like of 100 married women I approached with the intention of sex all 100 say yes?

    You’re misrepresenting my post. I haven’t claimed to be some Casanova sleeping with hundreds of women, married or otherwise. Nor have I claimed anything about all married women. All I’ve said is that in my experience, I’ve run into lots of women who cheat on their husbands. Some of whom I’ve taken up on their offer. In my personal opinion it is highly unlikely for someone who is not a Casanova to stumble into some hotbed of infidelity. My experiences must be commonplace.

    You are also forgetting that people gravitate over similar people, my slut wife friend was married for 12 years with no cheating, when she lived close to her very catholic friends and was an avid church goer, but she moved to her husband’s town were many of the married women were cheaters with no social consequences. In fact the man my friend slept the first with was “recommend” by one of her married neighborhoods that already slept with him and well herd mentality kicked in with dire results, she doesn’t have a lot of character either

    Again why do you even speak to someone for whom you are literally drenched with this much obvious disdain? If I don’t like someone, I tell them to fuck off.

    I agree that peer pressure is a b!tch. People often imitate the people they hang around. However, considering your story, it puzzles me as to how this is a refutation of what I’ve said. You seem to be describing exactly what I’m talking about. A woman is faithful to her husband for 12 years and then begins cheating. What? Is that the exception that proves the rule?

    You then go on to talk about a ” town were many of the married women were cheaters with no social consequences.” Again you seem to be describing exactly what I’m talking about. Do you believe that this town is one of a kind? Perhaps situated somewhere in the Twilight Zone? How have you refuted anything I’ve said?

    BTW, I saw her last year and she has become an entirely different person, that is the reason women that cheated on the past were usually separated from other women (the scarlet letter) I wouldn’t be surprised that you are on a particular hot spot, but don’t believe that this is the norm for every woman and don’t underestimate the environment, men are pack creatures, women are herd creatures, you are on a particularly slutty herd as off now, not all the female herds are like that, YMMV.

    So for 12 years this woman was a “good girl,” who cleaved to her husband. Then once upon a lifetime she tripped, slipped, and fell upon a d!ck and all of a sudden this “good girl” became a slut forever more? And to prevent other “good girls” from impaling themselves on some illicit impromptu spearheads we need to brand fallen newborn sluts with scarlet letters so the “good girls” know to avoid them?

    As I said I do not believe in “hot spots” of infidelity. I, however, will not begrudge you this point of view. You’re welcome to hold it. But I do offer these links as food for thought:

  169. Stephenie Rowling

    Mr. Quincy
    I don’t see the point of the links. I never said that no women ever cheated but that cheating just for sex variety, is a lot less frequent on women than on men and that women capable of cheating just for tasting a different dick were already sluts before they got married and/or married for all the wrong reasons.

  170. OffTheCuff

    Don’t forget you have to account for the fact that nobody – you, me, your wife’s mom, your beer buddy, whatever – really knows what’s going on in another person’s relationship. Susan just talked about this in her latest thread – “rich become poor.” A good reason not to get envious, and a good reason not to get too didactic.

    I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at. I’m not envious, I’m just pointing out that, friends/acquaintances do not confide in me to that level that Mike C (his player office mate) and Stephenie (player friends) do. The topic really just has never came up, especially in an office setting, and I’ve worked in some large companies.

  171. OTC,

    I wasn’t referring to you in particular, just noting that while we think we’ve got the story in a lot of cases we don’t. I’ve been burned more than once getting selective information about someone else’s relationship.

  172. Stephenie Rowling

    “I’ve been burned more than once getting selective information about someone else’s relationship.”

    You know I usually try to get both side of the story if possible. It really gives you a better perspective.

    “The topic really just has never came up, especially in an office setting, and I’ve worked in some large companies.”

    In my culture we are less paranoid but also think that people need to talk more than other people might be believe if you really want to share a bit of intimacy with other people,just listen to them and then try to make them talk , once they see you are a good listener and don’t shut them down, it will be like a river. People want to talk (they also want to be touched, but don’t try that) but the lack of sociability is not natural is another issue with the first world raising everybody to work against the natural desire of sense of comunity and support, YMMV.

  173. My Name Is Jim

    Stephanie: “I don’t see the point of the links. I never said that no women ever cheated but that cheating just for sex variety, is a lot less frequent on women than on men and that women capable of cheating just for tasting a different dick were already sluts before they got married and/or married for all the wrong reasons.”

    Obviously you haven’t read Langley’s books, because right there you managed to combine several of the misconceptions that she spends so much effort in her book teasing out and refuting. (Badger hinted at them in the original post but didn’t get to directly saying them.) Langley’s assertion is that women desire to “get some strange” just as much as men, though later in life because they reach their sex hormone peak later. But since there is social shaming of women who have sex without emotional attachment (witness your referring to them as sluts), women tell themselves they cheat for emotional fulfillment even when they really aren’t. According to Langley, women just have a natural urge to seek the excitement of a new sex partner and supressing that urge is what leads to a lot of marital problems. (She believes that women are not naturally monogamous.) The lack of acceptance of their own nature leads them to think there is something wrong with their husbands for not giving them the rush they get with a new partner. It’s all described in much more detail in the books than I can do it justice here.

  174. udolipixie

    @My Name Is Jim

    Neither gender is naturally monogamous.

    Men sow their oats & women nest.

    Men desire variety & value youth & beauty so a life long partner without dalliances is a difficult unnatural feat.

    While women desire nesting & value status so they are hypergamists.

    The male desire to sleep after mating allowed the female to slip out and re engage in sex with another male and to continue repeating this until pregnancy then passing off the child to a beta or sharing an alpha.

  175. Stephenie Rowling

    @My Name Is Jim

    I read it, I just disagree. If you take a look at other sources, women seek romance 100 more than unemotional porn for starters. I don’t doubt that some women are indeed into sex for variety with no emotion involved, but the case is more often about them losing attraction to their husbands, look at other authors explanations over this.

  176. Doug1

    Stephenie–

    ( I think he is depressed after having a huge downgrade on social position and that is why he is not interested on sex so she should be trying to help him and being understanding instead of cheating, but then again sex starving people usually do stupid things),

    Before looking outside the marriage for sex when one’s spouse isn’t providing it, I think both genders should work hard to rekindle their spouse’s interest in sex with them, before looking elsewhere. I’m talking over an extended period of time.

    In this case the wife should seek to build up her husband’s ego in various ways, have sexy lingerie for him, be flirtatious, and so on. Husbands should relationship game their wives, lead them, be dominant in the bedroom and seek to drive here crazy with good orgasmic sex.

    neither she is planning on even having one lover to fall for, she is mostly dating different men once a month and continues to be a good mother (their kids are 9 and 11)and her husband continues to have a normal life with her, normal considering they are not having sex.

    So you will think she is doing the right thing I suppose.”

    I think her not dissolving the marriage when the children are young and at home, and being a good mother and wife other than with respect to sex which he hasn’t wanted, but having just sex affairs that she doesn’t let turn into deep emotional things by not seeing any one man, is a whole lot better than falling in love with someone else and divorcing him. The main thing I’d fault her on is not trying hard enough to rekindle her husband’s confidence and sexual interest as I said above.

    However, this isn’t how very many women go about affairs or maintaining other sides of their marriage. If I thought most women could and would have extramarital sex in this manner only, I wouldn’t be so against well into a marriage, or so insistent on a double standard.

    The truth is most men who have good marriages but just have that natural male desire for variety and cheat for that reason, do it more or less in this pattern. Even if they do catch feelings for another woman they’re having an affair with, they don’t tend to fall out of love with their wife or want to leave her and his children. Men are naturally inclinded to be polygamous. Women are naturally inclined to be serially monogamous.

  177. Doug1

    Anna Bastow–

    of course according to Doug1 that is worst for the kids but then is that so?

    There are a ton of studies showing that divorce when kids are growing up at home is very significantly bad for them on average. Children of divorce do less well in school, they are more likely to get arrested, girls are more likely to be promiscuous, and they’re more likely to get divorced themselves.

  178. Doug1

    Stephenie–

    I’m curious, did the husband of the cheating Catholic wife you wrote extensively about know or suspect his wife was cheating?

  179. Doug1

    I wonder what percentage of cheating wives either end up divorcing their husbands, or stop giving them any more than trickles of sex.

    This goes to Langley’s findings/theory that having good sex in an extramarital affair tends to dissolve a woman’s sexual attraction to and over time pair bondedness with her husband.

  180. Stephenie Rowling

    “If you find this wench so distasteful, why do you still refer to her as a friend? I don’t tend to hang around people I don’t like just because we used to be cool in the past. Have you told her to her face she’s a slut? If not why not? ”

    I actually did tell her, but she keeps seeking my advice regardless of how much I tell her she is a slut and should try something different (in fact all my player friends knew that their lifestyle disgust me, I have no idea how they appreciated me so much still) I’m still trying to help her, like Doug1 says I’m trying to make her see the error of her ways, she is a good friend to me otherwise and I can compartmentalize her sex life (that I disapprove of) with other part of her live. I also believe she would do a lot worse without someone telling her that she should try to work on her marriage. I mean if you have a good friend with a person that is having a sex life you won’t like you immediately break up?

    “In this case the wife should seek to build up her husband’s ego in various ways, have sexy lingerie for him, be flirtatious, and so on. Husbands should relationship game their wives, lead them, be dominant in the bedroom and seek to drive here crazy with good orgasmic sex. ”

    Oh Doug1 I tried, I tried everything. I told her to go for oral sex to warm things up (she doesn’t do that) I tried for changing positions in the middle of the act, because she told me he doesn’t last long, I tried the lingerie, talking dark, every single trick of my personal sexual repertoire, was shut down for her as “his job”. She has this crazy idea that the man is the one that should do all the job while she opens her legs and enjoys, there is a lot of resentment on her and I think part of the cheating is punish him for no having sex with her, so is uglier than it looks. A this point I wonder if the reason her husband is not having sex with her is because she is boring in bed and unwilling to cooperate (is that possible?), how she can such one note in bed and a cheating slut at the same time is completely puzzling to me.

  181. Doug1

    udolipixie–

    Neither gender is naturally monogamous.>

    The genders aren’t the same and in some things are significantly different.

    In neither gender is lifetime monogamy the natural inclination of most. Most women are inclined to be serially monogamous and most men to be a combination of polygamous and promiscuous.

    However these tendencies are arranged on overlapping bell curves for each gender. Some but not many women are inclined towards promiscuity, or one lasting relationship with lots of flings, one offs and affairs, some men but not so many men are inclined towards monogamy and wouldn’t have flings, affairs or one offs with additional women even if they could manage it with cute and hot women without too much effort. Well that’s where prostitutes come in.

  182. Doug1

    Udolipixi—

    This I don’t get:

    “Women’s feeling so intense jealousy and betrayal for male cheating is largely wrongly projecting the consequences for how she’d feeling sexually about her spouse onto him. Of course it’s also been greatly encouraged by feminism, going back in this case to first wave feminism.”

    Yeah I garbled the wording of that.

    What I’m saying is that automatic female jealousy of husband just sex cheating is largely irrational. It’s not irrational if the husband does in fact stop sexing his wife nearly as much, or stops being loving and attentive to her. But outside of some movies that’s not usually what happens. He may in fact become more confidant and attractive to her, and have sex with his wife more often.

    Women know that if they keep having great sex with another man while in a relationship, and the lover is otherwise a good LTR match, that she’ll tend to catch strong feelings and then love for her lover, which IN THE WOMAN’S CASE (but not the man’s) will tend to dissolve her sexual attraction towards her husband and over time her feeling of being pair bonded to him emotionally, and that will kick in her serial monogamy to “next”. Particularly since that’s so encouraged in our feminist culture anytime a woman starts having feelings in that direction.

    What I’m saying is that women tend to project this self knowledge about the effects of their having good sex outside of a LTR, gained from past experiences of cheating or “overlapping” during LTRs, or their girlfriends experiences of that, and from entertainment media portrayal of that, and then (wrongly) project that onto men they’re with in a LTR or marriage. As well with a small minority of men, the same thing does happen – and this gets exaggerated by the strongly equalist / sameness feminism friendly American entertainment media. As well there’s a strong feminist meme that “if I can’t get away with if caught, then neither should he be able to.” You seem quite caught up in that meme.

  183. Doug1

    Stephenie–

    Do you think her husband knows or suspects she’s cheating? What would he do it he found out?

  184. Mr. Quincy

    @Stephenie Rowling

    I found this post to be hilarious. The contrast between “I tell her she is a slut”and “she is a good friend to me” is positively delightful. It’s like sweet and sour lemon-lime sherbet. I appreciate your frankness and I won’t try to convince you further, but neither can you convince me. Your “slut” friend sounds like just the type of woman I used to bang. Women like her are entitlement princesses and resent the men in their lives who can’t deliver the goods, whether it be money, prestige, hot sex or something else. Too many women are like this nowadays. I know you don’t agree with me and maybe my pov is tainted by my past. But I’ve got to live my life by my own experiences. It’s the only thing I know how to do.

    I don’t do that kind of thing anymore. However, I don’t trust women, and not because I think they’re all sluts. It’s just I need to err on the side of caution for my own sake. I’ve seen what can happen first hand when you don’t. I’m not going to be that guy on the wrong end of a phone call with a woman who’s breathing heavily, saying, “Oh honey, I’m panting cause I was just working out. I want to stay looking good for you.” Yeah, right.

    You’re clearly an honest, earnest, and caring person. That by the way is why your player friends appreciate you so much. You’re a straight shooter and they know they’re hearing something real, even if they don’t like it what they hear. On top of that you have a quality of sincere loyalty that is quite admirable in a person. You also sound like a good listener. I can relate to this because I USED to be the same way. People would talk to me and tell me things and basically monopolize my eardrums. I stopped lending folks my ear because they never seemed to appreciate it or want to return the favor.

    As far as your last question, I don’t care what my friends do as long as they’re not out raping anybody or molesting people’s children or screwing barn animals or something equally filthy. Other than that, what they do with their privates is their business.

    Case in point, I have two player friends, who cheat on their wives all the time. On separate occasions I asked both of them, “Has it ever even occurred to you to be faithful to your wife?” BOTH of them looked at me with the same odd expression as if I had farted at the dinner table or something. AND THEN they just went on talking about what they were talking about as if I hadn’t said anything at all! It was the height of hilarity to see such a strange expression reproduced on an entirely different face at a later date. I literally laughed my ass off.

  185. udolipixie

    @Mr. Quincy
    It was the height of hilarity to see such a strange expression reproduced on an entirely different face at a later date. I literally laughed my ass off

    You mean their wives were cheating on them as well?

  186. udolipixie

    @Mr. Quincy

    If you have friends who are cheaters why is it laughable that Stephenie Rowling has the same?

    Or that she likes her friend since you can hate the sin and not the sinner?

    Especially since you don’t care what your friends do within circumstance?

  187. Stephenie Rowling

    Women like her are entitlement princesses and resent the men in their lives who can’t deliver the goods, whether it be money, prestige, hot sex or something else.

    It could be, she didn’t started that way BTW. I knew her since she was 13 and she was modest and caring. I think the problem is the lack of conviction she was a model catholic girl surrounded by equally women, then she moved and everything went downhill. One of the reasons I keep trying with her is because she has had some moments of lucidity where she tells me that she wish to go back to be that girl I met. Sadly she lacks the willpower. I also have another friend that moved to Boston and she is not cheating but she has become a total entitled bitch, again her sister in law is a insufferable feminist that has convinced her that motherhood is a trap and that men shouldn’t be allowed to do anything, she bosses around her husband to a point that he cannot even watch TV with women on it, because he is objectifying them, completely ridiculous and yet she is turning slowly into her, is frankly terrifying.

    “You’re clearly an honest, earnest, and caring person. That by the way is why your player friends appreciate you so much. You’re a straight shooter and they know they’re hearing something real, even if they don’t like it what they hear. On top of that you have a quality of sincere loyalty that is quite admirable in a person. You also sound like a good listener. I can relate to this because I USED to be the same way. People would talk to me and tell me things and basically monopolize my eardrums. I stopped lending folks my ear because they never seemed to appreciate it or want to return the favor. ”

    Oh thanks for the kind words, and sorry you feel unappreciated.

  188. Mr. Quincy

    @udolipixie

    No. I mean I asked one of them on one day. Then I asked the other on an entirely different day. I don’t know if their wives were cheating on them or not. I got the sense once that one of my friends wives wanted to fuck me. But 1) I’ve never done that to friends. 2) She was drunk and I don’t fuck drunk wenches. The other wife I was never around long enough to get to know all that well.

    I don’t find it “laughable” in the way you’re talking about. I’m not laughing at her at all. I’m enjoying the fact that she’s expressing this dichotomy of emotions, because I’ve often felt the same about my friend. My only question was in the beginning it didn’t even seem as if she liked the woman. It only became clear after she explained it to me that she really does have fond feelings for this woman despite believing her to be a slut.

    I don’t think it’s too much to ask her to explain why her initial posts referred to a friend, while literally dripping with contempt. She explained it quite nicely and I understand now.

    This:

    “The contrast between “I tell her she is a slut”and “she is a good friend to me” is positively delightful. It’s like sweet and sour lemon-lime sherbet.”

    Is not a criticism at all.

    I’m simply celebrating her comments with a description of how I perceive them.

  189. Anonymous Reader

    Stephanie Rowling
    I read it, I just disagree. If you take a look at other sources, women seek romance 100 more than unemotional porn for starters.

    “Romance novels” are porn. Not only do they include explicit sex scenes every so many pages, they are emotional porn. They provide the emotional rush of a new relationship, they provide idealized men that no mortal can hope to match. If women were truly monogamous by nature, for the most part, then romance novels would be a niche market, probably sold in shabby stores off the main road (like porn used to be). However, my local Barnes & Noble has several meters of shelves fully two meters high jammed with the stuff.

    The popularity of emo-porn demonstrates just how non-monogamous women are. Serial monogamy is likely the default reproductive strategy for women (with a little cuckolding on the side). Emotional porn feeds right into that.

    Nice job on the topic, Badger.

  190. Stephenie Rowling

    ““Romance novels” are porn. Not only do they include explicit sex scenes every so many pages, they are emotional porn.”

    Since we were discussing sex with no emotional attachment you admitting that women seek emotional porn is just probing the point that the sex they seek is not of generic dick that pumps, but a special dick (for whatever reason) unlike men that any punani will do as long as is willing. Thus I have no idea what do you think this has to do with the discussion.

  191. Anonymous Reader

    ““Romance novels” are porn. Not only do they include explicit sex scenes every so many pages, they are emotional porn.”

    Since we were discussing sex with no emotional attachment

    No. The discussion is “Women’s Infidelity”.

    you admitting that women seek emotional porn is just probing the point that the sex they seek is not of generic dick that pumps, but a special dick (for whatever reason) unlike men that any punani will do as long as is willing. Thus I have no idea what do you think this has to do with the discussion.

    The discussion is “women’s infidelity”, and I’m saying you are not naturally or inherently monogamous, no matter how many years that falsehood has been repeated it is not true. That’s the point.

    The popularity of emo-porn proves the non-monogamy of women. This ties in with the topic.

  192. Stephenie Rowling

    I was discussing sex for fun with Mr. Quincy regarding women. I told him that sluts seek sex for fun while normal women that cheat usually have an emotional reason to do so (feel neglected usually) and that also some women when they feel tempted, get their big girls panties and work on their marriage don’t go and cheat.

    Now if any of this has anything do to with what you were trying to respond to me, please clarify.

  193. Anonymous Reader

    I was discussing sex for fun with Mr. Quincy regarding women. I told him that sluts seek sex for fun while normal women that cheat usually have an emotional reason to do so (feel neglected usually) and that also some women when they feel tempted, get their big girls panties and work on their marriage don’t go and cheat.

    In the larger context of “Michelle Langley and ‘Women’s Infidelity’ on the Tom Leykis show”, right? And you claimed that women are not interested in porn, but in “romance”. Whereupon I pointed out the obvious, and readily verifiable fact, that virtually all “romance fiction” is porn, albeit porn designed to appeal to women. For some reason, this fact annoys you. I don’t understand why, but it isn’t my problem.

    I agree that wives should not cheat. I agree that husbands should not cheat.

    Is there a problem with this position?

  194. Stephenie Rowling

    For some reason, this fact annoys you. I don’t understand why, but it isn’t my problem.

    It doesn’t annoy me. Is unrelated. If romance is emotional porn, that appeals to women then you are admitting that women see sex differently than men, then Langley is wrong, she is whether not asking the right questions or selecting a special group of women. If men and women cheated for the same reasons, then women would be paying for just porn as much as men do, but no.

    I agree that wives and husbands shouldn’t cheat though that is an undeniable truth.

  195. Anonymous Reader

    If romance is emotional porn, that appeals to women then you are admitting that women see sex differently than men, then Langley is wrong, she is whether not asking the right questions or selecting a special group of women. If men and women cheated for the same reasons, then women would be paying for just porn as much as men do, but no.

    That depends upon how the word “porn” is defined. If “porn” is defined narrowly as images, visual stimulation, i.e. photos / movie loops, you have a point. If “porn” is defined more broadly, as “material deliberately intended solely or primarily for sexual stimulation” then written porn, including emotional porn, is included. In that case, women buy as much porn as men do, possibly more if the emo-porn section of my local Barnes & Noble stores is any indication.

    So how do you define “porn”?

  196. Stephenie Rowling

    Well the popular term porn refers to images and videos of sex acts that usually involve little interaction beyond “you make me horny”, Romance can have sexual acts but is rarely among strangers or without a context.
    I don’t know if you read a billion wicked thoughts but it shows that women rarely pay for porn but buy romance novels by the bucket this shows an inherently difference among the sexes.
    there was this other experiment when they had an attractive female asking guys “I had been observing you and I find you very attractive would you go to bed with me” or something along the same lines, all the men say yes unless there was a real reason to stop them (girlfriend, married…) by most of the women engaged in the same situation with hot men say no and some even feel offended by it. So the majority of women would not engage in sex with any standing penis, they need context and connection. Is true that some will seek sex for the sake of it, but not the majority. Thus given how many american women cheat I would say that a lot of them most be doing it out of other reasons.
    Langley is commiting the mistake if trusting what a woman says and not what she does. A little research on the backstory of the lovers would probably show a lot more insight on the cheating, YMMV as usual.

    I do agree with the rotating poliandry though in some women, but not just out of sex, this men were probably selected for many reasons and the women justify it for sex because they don’t know any better.

  197. Anonymous Reader

    Well the popular term porn refers to images and videos of sex acts that usually involve little interaction beyond “you make me horny”, Romance can have sexual acts but is rarely among strangers or without a context.

    Each form of sexual fantasy ties in with the sexual response of the person in question, right?

    I don’t know if you read a billion wicked thoughts but it shows that women rarely pay for porn but buy romance novels by the bucket this shows an inherently difference among the sexes.

    I’m not disputing a difference in sexual response. I’m pointing out to you that women’s porn may be different in some details from men’s porn, but it is still sexual fantasy intended for titillation/stimulation.

    there was this other experiment when they had an attractive female asking guys “I had been observing you and I find you very attractive would you go to bed with me” or something along the same lines, all the men say yes unless there was a real reason to stop them (girlfriend, married…) by most of the women engaged in the same situation with hot men say no and some even feel offended by it. So the majority of women would not engage in sex with any standing penis, they need context and connection.

    Please provide a link to this study. How old were the women? Where were these encounters? When was the study performed? And finally, in what way were the questions actually asked?

    Because I personally am quite aware that women 20 to 25 will quite willingly engage in sex with any standing penis, totally sans any context or connection. You might want to learn a bit about the US hookup culture, perhaps read about Game, before making such blanket and false assertions.

    Is true that some will seek sex for the sake of it, but not the majority.

    I’m sure you believe that. However, it isn’t true for a very large plurality of women. Pick any night spot in any major US city on a Saturday night, and spend some time watching the pickup scene if you doubt me.

    Thus given how many american women cheat I would say that a lot of them most be doing it out of other reasons.

    Your premises are flawed, therefore your conclusion does not hold up.

    Langley is commiting the mistake if trusting what a woman says and not what she does.

    This is hugely ironic. In one posting you have contradicted yourself. The alleged study you cite relies exclusively on what women say, while the Pick Up Artists rely upon what women do. One of the axioms of Game is that women’s words are all but meaningless, their actions tell the true story.

    A little research on the backstory of the lovers would probably show a lot more insight on the cheating, YMMV as usual.</I

    A little research on your part on the topic of "hypergamy" would possibly teach you something useful.

    I do agree with the rotating poliandry though in some women, but not just out of sex, this men were probably selected for many reasons and the women justify it for sex because they don’t know any better.

  198. udolipixie

    @Doug1
    “What I’m saying is that automatic female jealousy of husband just sex cheating is largely irrational”

    Not to me it’s perfectly rational to be jealous if a partner is cheating whether or not their affections or sex for you wane.

    You may be fine with your gf/wife just sex cheating on you with multiple men but I’m not okay with my partner doing that.

    “As well there’s a strong feminist meme that “if I can’t get away with if caught, then neither should he be able to.” You seem quite caught up in that meme.”

    Nope I subscribe to the meme that all cheating- just physical or physical/emotional is a great betrayal and neither type is a lesser betrayal.

    Physical/emotional result is just more since the cheater has move on while with just physical the partner who has been cheated on will have to accept that his/her partner can’t commit sexually to them because they are a slut.

    If this feminist meme means by getting away with it that the betrayal of both types of cheating is equal then yes I subscribe to it.

  199. udolipixie

    *Physical/emotional result is just more destructive since the cheater has move on while with just physical the partner who has been cheated on will have to accept that his/her partner can’t commit sexually to them because they are a slut.

  200. Stephenie Rowling

    “I’m not disputing a difference in sexual response. I’m pointing out to you that women’s porn may be different in some details from men’s porn, but it is still sexual fantasy intended for titillation/stimulation. ”

    Heh so now you are agreeing that women need more than an standing penis on their romance and men only need a wet vagina? So how is that a detail? It seems a huge difference.

    “Please provide a link to this study. How old were the women? Where were these encounters? When was the study performed? And finally, in what way were the questions actually asked? ”

    http://psy.au.dk/en/currently/nyhed/artikel/new-danish-study-on-mating-strategies-of-women-and-men/

    http://www.jasonsummers.org/college-students-sex-lives/

    “Because I personally am quite aware that women 20 to 25 will quite willingly engage in sex with any standing penis, totally sans any context or connection. You might want to learn a bit about the US hookup culture, perhaps read about Game, before making such blanket and false assertions.”

    This is so funny, if you knew anything about Game you will know that if any standing penis would be enough guys wouldn’t need Game at all. Had you seen any techniques to help women to get laid? Really the whole purpose in Game is to make the guys attractive enough for the woman to want to have sex with them, no helping them to gain an erection, so women say “look a hard penis!” and hop in it like a man would.

    “This is hugely ironic. In one posting you have contradicted yourself. The alleged study you cite relies exclusively on what women say, while the Pick Up Artists rely upon what women do. One of the axioms of Game is that women’s words are all but meaningless, their actions tell the true story.”

    The difference is that if a woman says I just fucked this guy for sex, but the next day she is depressed because he didn’t called or if she spent any time trying to secure the guy before leaving her husband or if the first time they had intercourse was after knowing him for some months, then she is lying to herself and the researcher.
    No to mention many women just cheat out of many reasons, I doubt any of your lovers will tell you to your face “I fucked you thinking about how much it will hurt my husband if he knew…that bastard” or “Wait till the girls knew what kind of man I was able to get in bed, I must be really hot then” That is no sex for the sake of sex, but revenge sex and social validation sex. Many women won’t report that and rather rationalize their motives with whatever excuse makes the feel better, but if you read the specialists reports on post sexual depression and how little they actually enjoy hook up sex you will see that this is not something they do for pleasure, because there is little of it .
    In the study mentioned the woman was on a position to accept but didn’t. Rationalization is different than actions. The researcher should had asked details about their lovers: where did you meet him? Why did you selected him? Were you happy in your marriage at the time?

    Like Badger say on the other post a man with no moral compass can have the perfect wife (good sex, happy with her all around) and still cheat, a woman, regardless of her moral compass, can have the perfect husband (good sex, happy with him all around) and is very unlikely she will cheat. That bit is also an important difference.

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  204. udolipixie

    Like Badger say on the other post a man with no moral compass can have the perfect wife (good sex, happy with her all around) and still cheat, a woman, regardless of her moral compass, can have the perfect husband (good sex, happy with him all around) and is very unlikely she will cheat. That bit is also an important difference.

    Wow just wow.

    Another reason not to marry

  205. Stephenie Rowling

    Another reason not to marry…a man of little or no character.

    There fixed it for you. ;)

  206. [i]This is so funny, if you knew anything about Game you will know that if any standing penis would be enough guys wouldn’t need Game at all. Had you seen any techniques to help women to get laid? Really the whole purpose in Game is to make the guys attractive enough for the woman to want to have sex with them, no helping them to gain an erection, so women say “look a hard penis!” and hop in it like a man would.[/i]

    You know. There is an air of superiority to your entire argument. The fact that Game exists at all should not fill you with confidence in the sexual moral superiority of women. It should do just the opposite.

    The things Game does to make men more attractive to women are just as superficial as the things women do to make themselves more attractive to men. And the reason there is less of a market for women learning to attract men is because it’s already all over the media: tv, radio, film, magazines, pop culture etc. Men don’t proactively engage in hiding the triggers to their sexuality. Women on the other hand are, in large numbers, part of a conspiracy to pretend they’d rather be shopping than having sex. The reality is they’d rather be having great sex than either shopping or anything else. And they’d rather being washing dishes than having bad sex with a man who can’t get them off.

    If women are just such wonderful creatures that they are mostly monogamous, then why is there ANY social pressure at all on women to remain chaste? It shouldn’t even exist if that’s the case. If men are such wanton creatures, why is there ANY social pressure on guys to be studs and players. That’s like advising people to use their opposable thumbs! Why do the words “slut” and “player” exist in our language and what purpose do they serve in our society?

    The fact is it is just much more difficult for a woman to get off than a man. That’s a fact. Women have no reason to sleep with a random guy because the odds are he’s not going to be able to get her off. So there is a lot of risk with small chance of gain. It’s as simple as that. Do you honestly believe that if orgasms were as plentiful for women as they are for men there would be no change in the number women sleeping around with random guys? If your argument is true, in a world where men were born with vibrators instead of penises there should be no change in the sexual behavior of women. Is that what you believe?

    That is what your argument suggests. That because “good girls,” being the majority of women, would just put on the big girl pants when feeling neglected instead of straying, EVEN THOUGH SEXUAL SATISFACTION IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER. You’d better have more studies than you’ve shown to back that up. Men know that if they get laid they get off. Women know no such thing. So what’s the point? Do you honestly believe that if men got blue balls more often than orgasms when they had sex that they’d still be wanting sex as much? Women on average have more opportunity for just any old sex, but less opportunity for satisfying sex than men on average do. That’s the bottom line. Men can rely on a genital sneeze to take the edge off if nothing else. More likely than not a woman will go home unsatisfied and frustrated whatever she does so why take the added risk when you can just buy a vibrator and have at it?

    The men who women do sleep with in large numbers are as interchangeable as the things which attract men to women. Money, good looks, Game. ANY ONE of these will get you laid in droves effortlessly with so-called “good girls” who make all the other guys work for it. How can that be the case if women only want sex for emotional reasons (as if lust wasn’t an emotion)? Or are you going to claim that money, good looks, and Game bring up those emotional reasons that make women want to have sex? If that’s the case these emotions you keep talking about are just as superficial as a man’s nagging penis.

  207. This is Mr. Quincy by the way. I switched to my word press login because I couldn’t remember my other one.

  208. Stephenie Rowling

    “You know. There is an air of superiority to your entire argument. The fact that Game exists at all should not fill you with confidence in the sexual moral superiority of women. It should do just the opposite.”

    I don’t think is there superiority in women’s sexuality. The strategy is what I’m discussing if women could just have sex like men we will be in a different position, obviously we are not, hence issues in the current SMP.

    “If women are just such wonderful creatures that they are mostly monogamous, then why is there ANY social pressure at all on women to remain chaste?”

    Actually there is no such a pressure anymore, the pressure from the last 50 years had been to explore their sexuality and empower themselves, I could turn the question around an ask why would women need so much incentive from feminism if they are naturally promiscuous? The pressures depend on exactly the culture wants to promote at any given time.

    “The fact is it is just much more difficult for a woman to get off than a man. That’s a fact.”

    Then they need to be more discerned about sex anyway. And why would that be? You are admitting that nature didn’t equipment women with the sense sexual generosity than men. Penis are in average the same size and shape, why would some men be able to get a woman off while other men don’t?

    “Or are you going to claim that money, good looks, and Game bring up those emotional reasons that make women want to have sex? If that’s the case these emotions you keep talking about are just as superficial as a man’s nagging penis”

    Hypergamy works different for each women. I never claimed that it was superior, just different.
    Women were not wired to have orgasm with any standing penis because they have a limited time to reproduce both during the month and their lifetimes, Game teaches guys not how to bang a woman that she begs for more but to be sexually attractive, the reports of sexual satisfaction in women shows that the hook up sex is lousy, but they still keep doing that for other reasons: validation, depression, social status. That is the point I’m getting cheating and sex are usually covered in a lot of different reasons for women, All those cheating ladies that you have the pleasure to me, had more going on that “he looks/I heard he is a good lay” in their minds. If you read the blogs of women that cheat you can pay attention and find many references to their spouses doing something that they think drives them to another men, is never just that “new man looks like will give me an orgasm” is more like “my husband is not romantic anymore I feel abandoned…” and a lot of things more.
    Again I don’t claim superiority in the selection process just that the women that are doing it just for sex are minority. Good girls cheat for another reasons.
    Now a good woman will find out why she is feeling attracted to other men and find a way to fix that before cheating, the same for a good man, YMMV.

  209. @Stephenie Rowling

    I don’t think is there superiority in women’s sexuality. The strategy is what I’m discussing if women could just have sex like men we will be in a different position, obviously we are not, hence issues in the current SMP.

    I don’t disagree that women are currently in a different position. Simple biology is the cause for this. However, technology and time will IMO put men and women in a very similar position sooner than you think.

    Actually there is no such a pressure anymore, the pressure from the last 50 years had been to explore their sexuality and empower themselves, I could turn the question around an ask why would women need so much incentive from feminism if they are naturally promiscuous? The pressures depend on exactly the culture wants to promote at any given time.

    There’s pressure. There’s just more than one kind of pressure now. Monogamy is under attack, but men and women still respond to virgin/whore stereotype. Depending on what community you live in as you yourself have pointed out the pressure either way can be enormous. It’s mostly younger hookup subcultures that’s into that.

    Then they need to be more discerned about sex anyway. And why would that be? You are admitting that nature didn’t equipment women with the sense sexual generosity than men. Penis are in average the same size and shape, why would some men be able to get a woman off while other men don’t?

    I never said men and women weren’t different. I just said that large numbers of women cheat for the sake of better sex. You try and dismiss this reality by slut shaming as if these weren’t real women. They’re just these other creatures which have identical plumbing as real women.

    Because by and large men have been lied to. If we were back in puritanical times where everybody was being lied to and slut shamed both male and female sexuality would largely be a mystery.

    Hypergamy works different for each women. I never claimed that it was superior, just different.

    But your attitude smacks of superiority whether you say it out loud or not. I say this not to judge you, because you seem like a genuinely nice person. I say this just to let you know how you’re coming across. Not all the time, just in some of the things you say.

    Women were not wired to have orgasm with any standing penis because they have a limited time to reproduce both during the month and their lifetimes, Game teaches guys not how to bang a woman that she begs for more but to be sexually attractive, the reports of sexual satisfaction in women shows that the hook up sex is lousy, but they still keep doing that for other reasons: validation, depression, social status. That is the point I’m getting cheating and sex are usually covered in a lot of different reasons for women, All those cheating ladies that you have the pleasure to me, had more going on that “he looks/I heard he is a good lay” in their minds. If you read the blogs of women that cheat you can pay attention and find many references to their spouses doing something that they think drives them to another men, is never just that “new man looks like will give me an orgasm” is more like “my husband is not romantic anymore I feel abandoned…” and a lot of things more.

    Women have orgasms very easily when you know how to produce them. Consider a woman who has reached the age of 35 without ever having an orgasm with anyone other than her Battery Operated Boyfriend, despite having sex hundreds of times in her life. This woman may have a man who loves her, who provides for her, who treats her like gold and who is strong and confident not a wimp who lets her walk all over him. Unfortunately, for her he is also lousy in bed. A large chunk of the female population will eventually cheat on such a man. According to you, the woman who cheats after years of faithfulness for that reason alone is simply a slut to be dismissed as an aberration, while the “good girls” will just start buying Dr Laura Berman books and Victoria Secret negligee .

    Again I don’t claim superiority in the selection process just that the women that are doing it just for sex are minority. Good girls cheat for another reasons.
    Now a good woman will find out why she is feeling attracted to other men and find a way to fix that before cheating, the same for a good man, YMMV.

    You say, “Good girls cheat for another reasons.” The fact that you’re still calling some women who are cheating “good girls” is astounding. There ARE NO “good girls” who cheat. Women of moral character who’ve done all they can do will simply leave a man who isn’t making them happy or even trying to do so. That is the way to do it. WHATEVER your reasons if you’re cuckolding someone who hasn’t abused or cheated on you then you’re not a good person. If you’re depressed, lonely, feeling neglected, in need of validation, or just want to feel more attractive so you fuck your ex, you’re not a good person. But you didn’t suddenly become something called a “slut,” nor are you necessarily the worst person in the world. Back in the days when I was participating in this I wasn’t a good person either, but I’m a little older and a little wiser and after a lot of work I’m a better person. So I can look back at what I used to do and who I used to do it with and clearly see that WHATEVER our reasons we weren’t good people back in those days.

  210. Stephenie Rowling

    First I used the term good girl because you used it too, I personally have a low opinion of everyone that cheats, male or female as the people helping to cheat I try to help to avoid cheating not enable it.

    Second if you read Athol’s and other sex blogs, many women consider sex good regardless of orgasm or not orgasm is something most men are fixated into, is like penis size most men feel inadequate but most women really don’t care that much. Athol’s latest example was worried because his wife needs to play with herself while he fondles her to come, obviously is about how her body works, so any women that blames her man for her not coming needs a HUGE amount of education on her own pleasure, there is thousands of reasons while she wouldn’t come.
    As a personal anecdote my best friend husband cheated on her, before the cheating the sex was fantastic, after even if he was doing the things that drove her insane she couldn’t come for almost two years, that part of her brain that allowed to let her go, was not connecting, really don’t fool yourself a women’s orgasm are their doing you are just a tool for i.

  211. Second if you read Athol’s and other sex blogs, many women consider sex good regardless of orgasm or not orgasm is something most men are fixated into, is like penis size most men feel inadequate but most women really don’t care that much. Athol’s latest example was worried because his wife needs to play with herself while he fondles her to come, obviously is about how her body works, so any women that blames her man for her not coming needs a HUGE amount of education on her own pleasure, there is thousands of reasons while she wouldn’t come.

    With all due respect that’s nonsense. Sex cannot be good unless there’s a payoff for both men and women. It can be pleasant for some people, but if it never gets any farther than that it’s not good sex. It’s just a rather messy make out session. Good sex is fulfilling. Good sex is passionate. Good sex is intense. Good sex makes you feel like your insides are about to liquefy and squirt free of your body. Ask any woman who’s had a multiple orgasm. Or a continuous orgasm. Or a full body orgasm. Ask any woman who’s had a man introduce her to her G-spot, Deep Spot, or Cul de Sac. Anything less just doesn’t compare.

    Now I fully expect the women you speak of who haven’t experienced these things to report that sex is just as good without them. But that’s testimony out of ignorance. And also, I understand that fixating on the destination will inhibit a woman’s ability to get there. However, make no mistake about it, getting there IS the ultimate goal. You just can’t let it distract you from the journey.

    And yes women should take charge of their own orgasm. However, they usually only do so with their B.O.B. and much more rarely when with a partner.

    As a personal anecdote my best friend husband cheated on her, before the cheating the sex was fantastic, after even if he was doing the things that drove her insane she couldn’t come for almost two years, that part of her brain that allowed to let her go, was not connecting, really don’t fool yourself a women’s orgasm are their doing you are just a tool for i.

    I’m not surprised. For anyone to enjoy sex they have to relax and let go. For a woman to relax into sex and let go she has to trust her partner. Without trust there can be no relaxation and for many women no good sex. Hell, as a man, I wouldn’t want to have sex with someone who I know or suspect has been out fckng somebody else. Too many god damn diseases out there for me to be sticking my d!ck into occupied territory! I don’t want any suspect pussy so I can see why your friend couldn’t get off with once trusted d!ck that was now proven filthy. However, that doesn’t describe everybody. Some people get turned on when their partner strays. They then want to “fight for their mate.” Go figure.

    My player friend I told you about suspected his wife once of cheating. (Never found out if she actually was, beyond some questionable behavior, or not, but his reaction to the possibility astonished me. Considering how much he fcks around I didn’t expect it) He got into a domestic dispute with her. I don’t really have the details, but all I know is he spent the night in jail. She bailed him out and apparently they had the best sex in a loooong while. After that they were all lovey dovey for awhile. To me that’s just fckng stupid and I told them so. His attitude was like he’d reestablished her as his woman. Her attitude was like, “he really cares about me.” Some people have a territorial streak that actually arouses them when stuff like this happens. Don’t understand it, but hey… to each his/her own.

    And I have to disagree with that last. A man can be instrumental in teaching a woman how to orgasm. If that’s a tool it’s an indispensable one. So just call me Mr. Swiss Army D!ck.

  212. Stephenie Rowling

    You are not a woman so I guess if hard to explain, but there are several orgasms, clitoral, vaginal, labial and I heard Anal. All three feel different but even if the body orgasm a woman can still not enjoy the sex, rape victims react sexually to the rape and report orgasm and they also report not enjoying it and not understanding why their bodies were reacting to the stimulation. Again a good orgasm doesn’t mean that the sex was good neither is the other way around. Again Athol’s has a lot of anecdotal stories of the various levels of women’s satisfaction coming just from give a free cookie or having a mind blowing orgasm.

    Female sexuality is complex and concealed for reasons explained above, but this is something that only men that have had an stable partner for many years learn, because again women have many motivations for having sex: money, power, validation, revenge…is like faking orgasm, you will think there is no point in that and yet studies show that a lot of women do it for again several reasons.

    Now going back to the original point, deluding yourself into thinking that women are like men and that good sex will keep them in line, well is another lie that you shouldn’t buy. Because if you neglect other parts of the relationship because she is crying of pleasure every night and that particular women feels neglected in other areas and she is the type to fix their needs looking for another man to fulfill it, she will cheat. Cheating is waay to complex to just say” bang your woman enough give her orgasm and she will never look at another man”, not true at all.

    Some women will cheat even if they are banged twice a day (sluts), some women will cheat withing the right circumstances (normal I guess), (a lack in the relationship) and some women never cheat no matter what (perfect little angels :p).
    But the ones that do it for sex ONLY are very likely in the minority. Again if women and men were wired the same way we will have relationships like gay people and I don’t know about you but I had been close friends with many gay couples and their dynamics are completely different than heterosexual ones, because their sexual strategies are the same and not at odds like ours, YMMV as usual.

  213. New Player

    I was raised with the old view about women and with a women that thought like the old way but act exactly like bitch. Todo list now I ‘am a player, second I going to make sure my son understand how women really works.

  214. udolipixie

    @newplayer

    There’s no need to be a player.

    Why not just avoid those women?

    I can get where you’re in a situation and you see you’re about to be played you play the other person first.

    But what you’re talking about is pursuing the types you should avoid.

    As for your son it would be better to teach him to avoid women who work like the ones you were attracted to/chased after instead of having him “understand” women are like the ones you attracted/chased after.

    Teach him to differentiate between women suitable for a healthy relationship & those not and to avoid the ones that aren’t.

    This be a player & teach my son business seems just like women who become a user & teach their women to use.

  215. New Player

    @udolipixie What you don’t see is that don’t exist those women, they are the same some take longer to give up to their animal instinct but in the end all do. It’s a fact of life. My daddy was a player and I feel sorry for my mother and try to hold my libido with my wife not to follow his steps. First she control me, my friends, the many girls that like me after she push m to marry her and I accept until I was no longer in the game. My biggest mistake, I could have make her plus another two I was a bull but I choose be faithful for 14 years. Not anymore….

  216. udolipixie

    @newplayer

    Since most men want to be players, admire players, or turn into players be because they give up on relationships & just want sex or lost respect for women.

    And you yourself had to control your libido with your wife.

    I guess following your logic it’s safe to say that all men are the same it’s just that some take longer to give up to their animal instinct and some are just never given the opportunity.

    But that men who don’t have to hold their libido don’t exist.

    What do you know understand about women that you want to teach your son?

    What animal instincts do they give into that men don’t have a similar instinct?

  217. New Player

    Yes we have the same instinct the difference is the man has no moral justification, women always has a fake moral reason.Attention, good sex, money etc. In the end there is always someone better in give attention, sex, money and that creates a never end search (sex). what women lack is courage to say I went to fuck this guy because he has a hot body. Basically we are just releasing the animals that we are.

  218. udolipixie

    @new player

    So you’re just upset women don’t just say the reason?

    Plenty of women have the courage to say they f*cked a guy because he’s hot.

    They’re not treated all that well.

    As for no justifications?

    Men don’t give any moral justification?

    Really?

    The justification seems to be the same- we’re hardwired that way we can’t help it, a woman hurt me, it’s hard to find a good woman, or yours all women give into their animal instincts.

    So I guess you agree that all men are the same it just that some take longer to give up to their animal instinct and some are just never given the opportunity.

    So the only difference is that women try to morally justify it because their releasing their animal instincts isn’t treated as favorably as a guy doing so.

  219. New Player

    Not upset just learn the true, and they don’t say I ‘am a bitch they just act like one, there are just a few women that actually said

  220. New Player

    I can live my live in two ways in a utopia like a was living before or add the facts and statistics and see the true that nobody wants to see.

  221. udolipixie

    The only facts you presented were:

    all men are players & all women are b*tches because of their animal instincts.

    men are honest about their instincts & women aren’t

    If people don’t see that in their life it’s because it’s not true for them.

  222. Jennifer

    Amen, udol and Stephenie.

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  224. Jonny

    Butterfly is mad that a geek rejected her. If you don’t know the significance of 42 then you’re practically dead to most geeks. Not everybody fits into that tiny mold of reality you’ve got there.

    And pick-up a sci-fi book for petesakes and start reading, your lack of interest is annoying.

  225. Butterfly is mad that a geek rejected her. If you don’t know the significance of 42 then you’re practically dead to most geeks. Not everybody fits into that tiny mold of reality you’ve got there.

    And pick-up a sci-fi book for petesakes and start reading, your lack of interest is annoying.

    Actually, I’m engaged to a geek. & you just made a Douglas Adams “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” allusion. I like sci-fi, especially the old 1950′s pulp magazine-kind. I even collect old pulp magazines.

    Don’t go after betas then.

    Or go foreign.

    Wow, that was eerily prophetic. I’m engaged to a foreign [well, half-American] alpha.

    Is udolipixie still around? I’m gonna ask her to pick the lotto #’s!

    [I hope you know where your towel is.]

  226. Pingback: Happy Birthday to the Badger Hut, Part 2: Best Posts | The Badger Hut

  227. van Rooinek

    she has a lengthy section about the importance of penis size

    Intentional pun?

  228. Crypticify

    I think every married couple should address a very basic question prior to their marriages. “Why do we get Married?”
    The World today no longer demands us to get married because of Religious, Social or Ethical Norms.
    So what’s the point of going through the Marriage Ritual ???
    People can just move in together and start families without the bond of marriage.

    My personal view is that marriage is simply a form of Commitment and Loyalty from both the partners. In other words, two people who are already in a relationship and later decide to get married so that in the process they can enter a Loyalty Contract. Hence, people who start extra marital affairs are called “Cheaters”. But that doesn’t mean it has to be “till death do us apart”
    If couples don’t receive what they desire from their partners, they have every right to break it off. However, most (if not all) spouses wait till they find another partner and start cheating before they decide to end the marriage. In other words, they follow a “Don’t Jump Ship before getting your feet on another boat policy”.

    Cheating is simply an act of Self Interest and nothing more.

  229. Name Required

    wow, lights out? i mean really c’mon. what i’ve read hear is strictly a plethora of opinion. granted some of it may be good advice, but really. just another ‘reality’ blog. at least the script was left behind…

  230. Nick da Prof

    I see there are a lot of very frightened men here, and I grieve for them. Women are people, and once you get rid of a constructed-gender double standard (whose biological essentialism went out with the Pill; sorry fellas), it should be no surprise that women, like men, are committing adultery and talking about it.

    This said, while I recognize that cheating on you spouse may be empowering and enlightening and even under some rare circumstances a marriage-saver, it has the intrinsic problem of splitting one’s love object, as the shrinks would say. If we as men have one partner who is the virtuous but unattainable Madonna, for example, and are seeing another on the side who is a red-hot sexy playmate (with or without bunny ears), we can entertain ambivalent feelings about how we relate to women as a matter of course without the painful but necessary reality of reconciling these two desires and satisfying them in a single person. As a result, both relationships are deficient and ultimately neither will be satisfying; if we leave our Madonna-wife for the sexy one, we soon find that we long for the purity and innocence (and, it may be, competence) of the one we left behind, so see-saw back and forth between these two poles with a succession of ever-shorter and less-satisfying marriages.

    I know (only at second-hand, obviously; but my female informants are a candid bunch) that this can be true for women as well. Not a good strategy, I think. Better never to marry in the first place if one really can’t settle on one partner and pick the right one. There is no law says you HAVE to get married anyway. This author has her finger on the pulse of a strong current, but I am not sure she would go so far as to say that staying single really may be the best strategy if one cannot reconcile conflicting desires. To be sure, we can act in good faith and live fulfilling lives with a single partner if we CAN reconcile those conflicts; but I suspect that takes more work (and counseling) than most of us are up for.

  231. Bardon

    Having heroically read most of the comments, what can I say ? As a South-Eastern European outsider who’s been in the US, as a bookworm with normal-according our standards- sex life:

    1. most realistic posts are Stephanie’s
    2. pop-psychology of the Game, PUAs, “alphas” etc. is just a sign of shallowness that needs validation in third-rate worthless bestsellers. Had you read sex-love related masterworks of Aeschylus, Shakespeare, Stendhal, Flaubert, Charlotte and Emily Bronte, Tolstoy, Chekhov, Proust, Martin Du Gard, Zola, D.H. Lawrence, Strindberg, Knut Hamsun…or wisdom essays of Montaigne, Freud -or even Weininger, you wouldn’t be so lost.
    3. enough with stereotypes of men as emotionally deficient. Women are, as a rule, more sensitive, but not emotional. Who wrote the best love poetry in the world ? St. Paul wrote Hymn to Love (Corinthians 1, 13:); for every Emily Dickinson, Elisabeth Barret Browning, Anna Akhmatova, Marina Tsvetaeva, …there are tons of Donnes, Shakespeares, Baudelaires, Keatses, Shelleys, Pushkins, Rilkes, Pasternaks,..I won’t even mention Dante and Petrarch.
    4. that said- you’re reaping what you’d sown. ME-ME culture, promiscuity, bad divorce laws, TV brain washing, ….

  232. Jimbo

    When these frittering girls get old and lose their appeal, they cry and leave notes that they never found love.
    It’s a building process on what you started, not something you chase all your life.
    Make your bed and lie in it, make it work, but ensure he is thinking the same,

  233. Langley’s conclusions are drawn from her personal experiences and how come she can decide whats good and whats bad for others.

  234. The first bullet point is the catalyst for the remaining points.A woman does not need a man to maintain her.

  235. Pingback: Just started reading "Women's Infidelity - Living In Limbo" - Page 7

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