Moving On And When To Do It

Two of my favorite blogs issued posts yesterday based on reader comments that could have been written by me (I had to double-take both of them). One concerns recovering emotionally from a breakup and the other a relationship rut at a key time. Both are quite germane because of big personal events:

I ended my LTR two weeks ago.

In the last handful of years, I got dumped by the woman I thought I was going to marry, found game through the back door, left graduate school early, moved across the country to a city in which I knew literally one person, wrangled my way into two good jobs and fell in love again. With the possible exception of the first item, in all that time this was the most difficult thing I’ve been through; I appear to have gone through the Five Stages in a random order.

Did you ever date someone you discovered you didn’t like, and the breakup was just the fulfillment of an inevitability, a moment of unalloyed relief? This was not one of those cases. It was an incredibly difficult decision. This isn’t an “I love you but I’m not in love with you.” It’s more like an “I love you but I need to make a rational long-term decision that gives me the best chance to live a happy, productive life.” In the end we wanted different futures, and we were too far apart on how we led our lives. I was in a pattern where I was thinking “if this or that issue was solved I’d be a lot more amenable to going all the way,” but the list got so long that I eventually reached the conclusion that I was wishing for a different person. And asking her to undertake such changes under the blackmail of a breakup wasn’t going to be fair to her or to me.

We had an absolutely wonderful first eight months or so, we both thought we’d hit a home run. I’ve come to believe that part of the reason it was so good is because we were both pretty interesting people when we met – we had good friend groups, we liked our jobs, we had side hobbies and a sense of abundance. We packed more into that time than into the year and a half after that – because we made a classic LTR mistake: we gradually backed away from all of that with the pretext that we had each other and that was enough. And in my opinion, I backdoored myself into a codependence scenario – not only was my life not as interesting as I wanted, I was hesitant to push issues or (eventually) break up because I felt like I was all she had.

Finally, breaking up is hard simply because even in cases where it’s the wrong situation to be in, you literally can’t imagine your life without that person.

Enough about me, on to the posts. Susan Walsh addressed a commenter under the nom de guerre of “Robinson.” He’s been struggling with emotionally detaching after getting dumped by his first lay.

Hi Susan,

My ex girlfriend broke up with me 6 months ago (we dated 3 months) and unfortunately I am still emotionally suffering from the break up. We are very different people, although we did have a mutual interest in wildlife biology. She enjoys getting wasted, smoking weed and hooking up (she likes the attention). I have avoided drugs throughout most of my life and have never hooked up. Our differing values were not compatible and are what led to the break up.

Sounds like a story I’ve heard before. As the master of esoteric interests, I find it’s easy to develop one-itis for a woman who displays an interest in military history, classic alternative music or fine meat cooking.

As a male, I’m embarrassed (sarcasm) to say that at the mighty age of 24, I lost my virginity to this girl. I was brought up on the values to seek meaningful relationships and I do believe I achieved that in this case. The problem is that I can’t seem to get past this girl who I don’t even want to be with anymore. Since I lost my virginity to her and put a lot of effort in the relationship, I still can’t seem to shake the feeling of a sort of innate obligation to take care of her, be there for her and love her. Why do I still feel that way when I really want nothing to do with her? Could there be a biological explanation? Or do you think its more likely to be environmental?

First, I want to say that now that you’ve lost it, no one will care when you lost it.

Sadly, I have complete empathy for your deep feelings of abiding love. Some men are born with this trait; I certainly was. We want to believe the best about people, that the people we love can turn their lives around. Those are also messages blared to us through the media. Culture is constantly “qualifying” us to be Real Men(TM), to be better than the slobs we see in beer ads, tapping into our natural desire to please and warping it into a phony “non-judgmentalism” that tells us guys we are supposed to just deal with histrionic, indolent behavior because “girls just gotta have fun.” Add to that the cultural anxiety about mid-life crises and men leaving their middle-aged wives for younger hotter tighter (a pattern not at all borne out by the divorce statistics, BTW) and you’ll find a crop of young guys who desperately want to show their bona fides as “Real Men” by sticking by their women when the right choice is to find a field to plow that might actually bear some harvest.

I was also born with a strong desire to see something through to a good end, something I’m guessing you might be going through too given your words about investing effort into the relationship. This serves me well on the job, but is poison in relationships, sapping me of opportunity cost and sucking my psyche dry working for a result that will never materialize as I dig beneath the Mendoza Line (the batting average below which it is said a player will never recover). It took me years (yeah) to really internalize and build the skill to leave a bad relationship where I left it.

My relationships in the past did not involve sex and I never felt that strongly about them. I hate to say it, but after being emotionally drained by this relationship, I have the urge to fall for the temptation of hooking up with no strings attached. I know its not the road I should go and I know I will not do it, but why do I all of a sudden have this urge when I have resisted it for so long?

I hate to sound like a sex-pozzie, but part of it could be that you are now sexually “activated” and your rationalization hamster is trying to drive you towards scratching the itch more. Sounds like your subconscious also wants to avoid a repeat of the emotional pain.

I’m curious to know if this happens to other guys who lose their virginity in a relationship. They have a relationship, lose their virginity, relationship ends, the cost of being in a relationship is too high and emotionally draining, they resort to hooking up. What do you think?

Our minds place tremendous value on persons with whom we share defining experiences. I found it surprisingly difficult to de-bond from my high school football team, an unusually tight-knit crew; by the same token, we see ex-military personnel who can never find an environment of trust and teamwork as satisfying as their former unit.

There is an excellent commenter at HUS named Mike C who late last year discussed his brief marriage to his first sexual partner and the difficulties of withdrawing from that bond even amid great mismatch; it is not an unheard of phenomenon. My defunct LTR had dozens of these experiences in the domestic realm. I met her soon after moving to a new town, so it’s almost impossible to go out or even drive down the street without being reminded of her – the site of our first date, restaurants we went to, parks we liked, places I showed her or she showed me, clothes she helped me pick out, even the first Thanksgiving turkey I cooked myself.

As to what to do: there’s no easy advice. Science has yet to give us the oneitis pill, a theoretical gamechanger that would be on par with male birth control. The best thing you can do is build an independent life, and the let your mind gradually fit into it.

Break the chemical bonds she has on you. Try to blow your mind out with dopamine (within limits of course – cocaine is inadvisable). Go for some new experiences. Break your routines. Pick a hobby or personal project you’ve always wanted to do, and do it – with gusto.

One commenter suggested a good weight program. I wholeheartedly endorse that (eat healthy too). Don’t just do your reps and go home, put on some loud music and really go for the “pump.”

Push your social comfort zone a bit. Try a new frame with clothing – if you’re an athletic guy, cop the corduroy-and-horn-rims look of a young English professor (you know, the ones the college girls are always having flings with). If you’re a bit of a geek, get some pants that fit and a few nice dress shirts and pretend you just came from an upscale brunch. Roleplaying – the idea that you DON’T have to be yourself in this costume – should loosen you up.

Play social games with new people. Never introduce yourself – wait for them to do so or to ask you your name. Give people an obviously bogus occupation when they ask what you do (“I appraise used farming equipment for the resale market.” “I’m head of operations at a Christmas sweater manufacturing company.” “I don’t like to make it public, but have you heard of the Sausage King of Chicago?”)

There will be a big tendency towards self-pity. Avoid this by trying to turn every conversation back to the other person. Don’t tell them about your problems; let them shine and absorb their energy. This not only practices your skills as a master conversationalist, it gets your mind off of your own crap. (If they don’t shine, find someone else to talk to…why spend time with people you find a drag or a bore?)

As for dating itself, I don’t recommend a series of meaningless one-night stands/FWB/NSA, but there wouldn’t be anything wrong with a fling (particularly one that didn’t go all the way). Nor with going on a few dates, just some fun experiences with women to let you know there are other girls in the world and you can attract them. This is one thing I wish I had done when I got left high and dry a few years back (send me your online dating profile if you want me to work it over).

You may be tempted to throw yourself into your work. It’s a trap, avoid it – it sublimates the problem instead of treating it. Make social commitments that require you to get out of the office at a decent hour.

Finally, you’ll have to find a way to come to some sort of forgiveness. You don’t have to contact her to communicate this, but you don’t want to be in a way where you are operating from a subconscious revenge mindset, where you want to do someone the way she did to you. Don’t let her live rent-free in your head.

I will not lie to you, and in any case you know right now that what I say is true – it’s not easy. There’s waves of intense loneliness, a feeling of abandonment and abandoning, and a generalized sense that the world doesn’t compute, that there’s nothing to salve your mind. You’ll spend time doing interesting things and talking to interesting people and thinking to yourself “I wish she was here.”

It’s not true. There will be a day when you wake up and the first thing you think about ISN’T her. By definition, you won’t notice this day. You probably won’t be able to locate it after the fact. But it will be one of the most liberating days of your life, the day your mind let you go on.

That’s a good segue into our other post. A reader email at Married Man Sex Life was quoted thusly:

Hi Athol,

I’ve been an avid reader of your blog for some time now, and just recently got the book and started reading it. Even though I’m not married, I am in a LTR of 7 months, and already things have gone downhill, so I’m hoping the book will help bring it back to life. We haven’t had sex for close to a month now, her reasons being too exhausted and stressed from the new job, and not being comfortable with her own body as she’s gained a little weight since we started dating. Even though that may be partly true as she works long hours, Isuspect the real reason is my greatly increased “betatude” in the last few months.

My question to you is – should I tell her about the book and give it to her to read once I’m done, as I think it would help her shed some light on her own behaviour as well, or would that be a bad idea and make me look even more beta in her eyes (the fact that I need to read a book to figure out how to re-ignite the spark). I’m 25 and she’s 21, although she acts much more mature than that, if it makes a difference. Looking forward to your answer, and to finishing the book of course!

Cheers, thanks.

I’ll be shorter this time. My take is that problems around the six-month point indicate that for one or both of you, the novelty has worn off, and/or you’re at a comfort stage where you (or she) feel “OK” not being on your best behavior anymore.

One of the great shames in relationships is that people try to justify treating their partner shabbily with some high-octane rationalization along the lines of “well I’m comfortable enough to show you my bad side” or “if you can’t take my worst you don’t deserve my best,” a bunch of Cosmo-esque bullshit. (As if she’d give Matthew McConaughey the same treatment.)

Life changes, bodies change, jobs change, etc – it’s a fact of life, and one of the reasons we should date for a long time before getting married is so we can audition our partners for how they deal with life changes. People who can only enjoy life under a tightly controlled set of circumstances, or only when it’s novel and fun, who don’t show significant adaptability, are not people to bet the rest of your life on.

Now for the advice nobody wants to hear: if things have gone downhill so quickly that early, I think it’s best to simply eject. Sure you should up your alpha but don’t waste it on fixing her. Give up the Captain Save-A-Ho fantasy. Give up the sense of obligation to “nurture” her because you think that’s what love is all about. If you’d been together ten years and things had just started to decline it’d be worth a full effort to turn it around; six months in and you’re probably just not that compatible.

I would use the book less to convince her to shape up (you can’t force her behavior anyway) and more to convince yourself of the type of relationship you want to have (one where sex problems manifest themselves six months in?)

I will break bread with Athol’s answer, though – there is the chance that a lucid and direct articulation of your expectations for the relationship (as relayed in MMSL or any other way you want to present it) will cause her to straighten up and fly right. Quite honestly, due to cultural brainwashing plenty of women who would make great wives don’t know how to present as such because they just don’t know the expectations, and they can’t read our minds. Not every woman is an anarcho-feminist bitch who needs to be gamed into submission.

So it might be worth a try. But you should think it over – do you want to invest long-term if problems are this bad this early? Wouldn’t your skills be better used on someone who didn’t fall out of love with you within the first year?

Take it from a guy who stayed in such a situation far longer than he should have. The initial pain is significant, but you’ll never regret it in the long run.

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124 Comments

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124 responses to “Moving On And When To Do It

  1. Butterfly Flower

    I backdoored myself into a codependence scenario – not only was my life not as interesting as I wanted, I was hesitant to push issues or (eventually) break up because I felt like I was all she had

    You mentioned her hobbies and her career; your ex didn’t sound very co-dependent. Nor did she sound like a slut.

    What were your exact grievances with her?

    This post gave me the impression you just dumped your ex ’cause she liked you more than you liked her.

    “…not only was my life not as interesting as I wanted” – sounds more like your ex wasn’t as interesting as you wanted. She was alright, but she could have been better.

    If you didn’t like her that much, why didn’t you just tell her? Or not get involved in an emotional relationship with her? No strings attached sex would have been the less cruel thing to do.

    I’m not negging you or anything. It’s just I thought Betas were supposed to be honest. You should be admitting to your own weaknesses [cowardice?] before you criticize the innocent girl whom you led on .

  2. Lovekraft

    Great post.

    You mentioned online dating. My profile is, I believe, too honest. It talks about being stable, trustworthy, my esoteric interests (goth, HP Lovecraft etc). This is because I want a woman who responds to connect with them, instead of portraying myself as something I am not (fun, party dude, or wimpy herb).

    Any suggestions?

    I can handle the fact that Plenty of Fish is ground central for flaky ego-boosting liars and the rejection that comes with it, but do you have any suggestions for tweeking so that I can at least get first dates?

  3. Badger, this post just blew me away. The pingback is on HUS, but I’m going to draw more attention to it – it’s just so good. Thanks for taking the time to share your own experience to help out Robinson – this advice is priceless if he’ll take it.

  4. Mister Lettuce

    @lovekraft

    Honestly, your profile really doesn’t natter. What you write to a gal does

    Make statements/assumptions based on the gal from her profile. Even if they’re wrong, shell more likely respond back.

    (ex: a girls profile says she’s stuck and frustrated with college. My email:

    Hey,

    I see you’re feeling frustrated with college now. I’ll take a guess and say your majoring in English.)

  5. detinennui32

    Badger: You said what needed to be said for relationships that break up, or need to break up. Every man gets dumped. It’s good that Robinson seems to understand why his first LTR ended – because their interests were too divergent. I suspect many men get dumped because they are too needy, too clingy, too “But I LOOOOOVVVE YOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUU!” You’ve appropriately diagnosed oneitis and prescribed a treatment. It would seem the remedy for Robinson’s oneitis is to get out and meet new people.

    We break up for lots of reasons. Sometimes it’s
    I love you but I’m not in love with you.
    Or
    I used to love you but I never was in love with you and now I don’t love you.
    Or
    I liked you, we had good sex, but it never went beyond that.
    Or
    I love you, I’m in love with you, you’re in love with me, but we want different things for our lives and this is never, ever going to work no matter how hard we try.
    Or
    I love you, we’re in love with each other, but we are just too different and this is never, ever going to work no matter how hard we try.

    And sometimes it is very difficult and painful to accept these things, but we have to.

    And finally, we remember our first, the one who took our virginity. But I’ve moved on from her. You remember, you just don’t obsess. That day will come eventually.

  6. Kathy

    Blew me away too, Badger.. Heartfelt , honest soul stirring stuff..
    Takes a lot of courage to do that I reckon.. :)

  7. Mister Lettuce

    @detinennui32

    I don’t know. I try to forget my first time. Too awkward.

    The second, third, and fourth times?

    Oh, I definitely want to remember those.

  8. Mister Lettuce

    @badger

    That’s some raw stuff, man. But you made s very mature decision in the end. I’ve got to give props to you, and also all the advice you have given me in the past. I don’t know of this matters much now, but you’ve (and a lot of the man-o-sphere) helped me to become a better man.

    Along with working out, I’ve found jogging to help keep my stress levels down, even moreso if you do it outside. To me, Georgia springs and summers are made for three things

    1.) jogging
    2.) swimming
    3.) Sweetwater 420 beer. :)

  9. Confidunce

    “We had an absolutely wonderful first eight months or so, we both thought we’d hit a home run. I’ve come to believe that part of the reason it was so good is because we were both pretty interesting people when we met – we had good friend groups, we liked our jobs, we had side hobbies and a sense of abundance. We packed more into that time than into the year and a half after that – because we made a classic LTR mistake: we gradually backed away from all of that with the pretext that we had each other and that was enough. And in my opinion, I backdoored myself into a codependence scenario – not only was my life not as interesting as I wanted, I was hesitant to push issues or (eventually) break up because I felt like I was all she had.”

    I shuddered when I read this. Well said. Describes my failed marriage perfectly.

  10. Badger, I’m sorry to hear that it didn’t work out for you.

    Keep writing about your situation. As you know, blogging is very cathartic. It keeps us on an even keel. Its puts everything in perspective.

  11. Butterfly Flower,

    Thanks for illustrating a point I made in the post – the cultural presumption that men are always in the wrong in a breakup. If the guy dumps the girl, no matter what the reason, he must be a dishonest cad. If the guy gets dumped, it must be because he’s defective (and the girl can expect a round of “you go girl” from Team Woman).

    I’m not sure you read the post very carefully; it’s pretty presumptuous for you to assume an extended relationship with a woman I loved was actually a long-term pump-and-dump. We were just not right for each other in the long run. Again, all of this is in the post, but you’d rather throw all that out and call me a liar instead.

    This is an important point for Robinson et al – no matter what you do with a woman, there are going to be haters who’ll criticize you (who won’t even listen to the facts to boot). Do what’s best for you and don’t listen to them. Don’t think “well if I break up with her then she’ll be mad, and her friends will be mad, and people are going to judge me, and I don’t want to be the guy people are mad at.” Don’t allow yourself to be blackmailed. Don’t put someone else’s emotional life ahead of your own and let it dictate your decisions.

  12. The cultural presumption is that the woman is good and the man is bad – in every possible scenario, no matter what are the facts.

    If the man is at fault, he´s a villain and the poor woman has to be compensated.

    If the woman is at fault, its because the man deserved it, and the man has to be shamed.

    If both are at fault, the man is still bad and the woman is still a victim, and the man still deserved the wrongdoing, while she didnt.

    So no matter what are the facts, theres always a way to twist that to make the man look bad and cheer you go girl, just do that again.

    Not sure how this works in other cultures, but being a badass indifferent detached steel impenetrable uncaring guy is really a requirement to survive this society and keep going. Then of course some will blame you for being like that, too. But at that point, who cares.

    Keep going bro. Kudos for dumping a girl who wasnt for you.

  13. lovekraft,

    There’s plenty of online dating advice on the manosphere, so I’ll try to keep this simple: you’re much better off selling hard to a small market than trying to appeal to everybody. Pick the two or three things you really want in a woman, or really want her to “get” about you, and make sure they are clear in the profile. Don’t talk about beta traits, they come across as supplication on a profile. Focus on you, don’t put any “I’m looking for a girl who XXX.” Have good quality photos that show a range of frames and activities (night, day, solo, group, different wardrobes). Be short to cultivate mystery. Avoid ! and :).

    Then, WJ is right that what you write to women is key. Don’t blindly flatter them or they won’t find you interesting, but negging in prose is exceedingly difficult and talking about yourself doesn’t grab them.

    Workshy Joe,

    Thanks for the thumbs up.

  14. Is Butterfly Flower really Polyamorous Desi/Plain Jane?

    [That's cold, Susan. ;)]

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  16. “Sounds like a story I’ve heard before. As the master of esoteric interests, I find it’s easy to develop one-itis for a woman who displays an interest in military history, classic alternative music or fine meat cooking.”

    This is something that echoes for me too. I had a lot of one-itis (which, to be honest, I am still recovering from) about a girl who shared my liking for literature and poetry.

    “I was also born with a strong desire to see something through to a good end, something I’m guessing you might be going through too given your words about investing effort into the relationship. ”

    I think this is the difference in how men’s and women’s minds work. Men like a strong, stable, perfect relationship, while women might enjoy the chemical high that comes from having an unstable relationship. I guess in today’s society the point is to be on the winning side of that equation (i.e. being an alpha pump-and-dumper) or a revolutionary (try to convince society that women are not the unique hard-working empowered pure snowflakes society assumes them to be). You can see why the former is easier.

  17. Butterfly Flower

    @Badger:

    My argument against you has nothing to do with cultural presumptions.

    Your post was vague. You didn’t list any substantial grievances against your ex. You didn’t mention her cheating on you, or ignoring you.

    You called her co-dependent but you didn’t elaborate on the situation.

    I got the feeling you just didn’t like her all that much so you dumped her. She was nice, but, you know – you two didn’t click. She wasn’t the one.

    It’s okay. I’m not blaming you for leaving a relationship you weren’t happy in.

    …but why couldn’t you admit to that in your post? You made it sound like it was your ex’s fault the relationship failed! She didn’t do anything horrendous [& if she did, you should have made that fact a little more obvious!]

    Your personal situation had nothing to do with Robinson because Robinson was actually a good boy done wrong by a slut. Your ex sounded like a decent girl. Just because she wasn’t “the one” doesn’t make her a slut that screwed you over.

    Also, why didn’t you talk to your ex about relationship issues? If she really loved you, I’m sure she would have listened.

    Is Butterfly Flower really Polyamorous Desi/Plain Jane?

    I’m new to these types-of blogs. I honestly have no idea who those people are. Although I guess they’re trolls because Polyamorous sounds like a synonym for orgy.

    ….Hey! Don’t you think that’s a little rude – suggesting I’m a troll? My argument raised legitimate points!

    I’m a chaste traditional 19 year old. I thought you were supposed to be supporting girls like me?

    I’m attractive but I’m afraid to get a boyfriend because all the guys around my age seem flighty and selfish; Betas included.

    It sounds like Badger’s LTR failed because he was flighty and selfish. He’d rather dump the girl than work out the relationship issues. “It was mostly her fault anyway…” was his rationalization.

    - that’s what bothered me the most. Nothing worth having will ever come to you easily.

    [Read before you write next time. You're a nutjob, reading all sorts of horrors into the situation that aren't there, and in fact are the opposite of what I've written in the post. I never said my lady was a "slut." You are engaging in a massive projection - because you don't think much of the guys around you, a blogger you've never met must have the same problems, and you can't fathom that any guy could do differently.

    You're young, but the sooner you learn this the better...relationships don't have to end because of someone committing a "grievance." There is a thing called mismatch. It can't be "worked out" in a tearful climax. Life is not a romantic comedy.

    I like how you had to throw in that you're hot. Just so we get the message that we should listen to you.]

  18. Noeleve

    I <3 Badger! Thanks for the post :)

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  20. Athol,

    Wow, that guy is in a huge mess. Hope he has a parachute (i.e. a set of stones).

  21. Good post, Badger. Couple of things.

    Nor with going on a few dates, just some fun experiences with women to let you know there are other girls in the world and you can attract them.

    When I got together with my now-wife I was following this strategy. Though I’ll lose points for admitting this, I got the idea from my paternal grandmother. She’d been telling me stories about meeting my grandfather and was elaborating on the “Coke dates” she had prior to meeting him. The gist is that she had men with whom she’d go out and share a bottle of Coke, but that was it. No expectations, ergo no real pressure. Just spending time with people with whom she enjoyed spending time. As a result of internalizing that, I found a couple of girlfriends, with heavy emphasis on the word friend. They were attractive, we’d go out to dinner and the like, but I was never focused on anything but being able to take them out to dinner and enjoy their platonic company. Self servingly, being seen with myriad women was a plus. In the end, I found Penelope and stopped taking these other girls out. But, even though I didn’t end up with any of the other girls, it was time well spent as it gave me a way to channel a chunk of my male energy without draining that same energy to the point that I was too spent to make a move on my now-wife.

    This isn’t an “I love you but I’m not in love with you.” It’s more like an “I love you but I need to make a rational long-term decision that gives me the best chance to live a happy, productive life.”

    My maternal grandmother, now I’m really losing points with references to both grandmothers and none to my grandfathers, once told me, almost out of the blue, about breaking up with a boyfriend during World War II. We’d been talking generally and she’d somehow picked up on an unspoken stream regarding my then-girlfriend. I’d come to the same sort of rational decision and she basically gave me a pep talk regarding breaking up with this girl.

    If you stay in a pointless relationship, particularly one in which you still like the girl, you’re wasting two people’s time. End it, move on, have a few Coke dates, and find someone towards whom you are better predisposed.

  22. Wow. I am so sorry to hear this. Having a relationship with fundamental incompatibilities is very difficult. It is good that you are honest with yourself and her though. Honesty is always better than the alternatives, imo.

    Just curious, did she know about game? You mentioned getting into a rut. One of the things I was very careful about was the “relationship rut.” I knew that if I stopped putting in the effort, things would go downhill.

    My past experience was invaluable in that regard, and I’m glad to have learned about game before I met my husband. I’m constantly on my best behavior. I also know he wouldn’t tolerate bad behavior, because he also learned game before he met me. We also have the support of friends and family which is so important.

    It’s clear that you still care for her a great deal, but that things have deteriorated to the point of no return. I would say (though I know how worthless female advice is around these parts heh) that in the future, nip it in the bud as soon as you see these patterns develop. Root them out before they grow into big problems. LTRs are really a lot of work, and in some ways women do need some whipping into shape to do that work, especially nowadays. Something as small as household chores can breed resentment. I decided to do all the common chores as an effort to “woman up.” But I never would have done this had it not been for also taking a hardcore dose of the Red Pill. If she never did, that could have contributed to problems.

  23. Butterfly Flower

    @Badger:

    You compared your failed relationship to Robinson’s failed relationship.
    Robinson’s relationship failed because the girl was a slut/unsavory individual. He obviously loved the girl, but she didn’t feel the same way back.

    If your ex wasn’t a slut; if it was a mutual breakup….then your comparison doesn’t make much sense.

    You’re young, but the sooner you learn this the better…relationships don’t have to end because of someone committing a “grievance.” There is a thing called mismatch. It can’t be “worked out” in a tearful climax. Life is not a romantic comedy.

    Does this advice apply to marriages as well?

    So if I marry a guy but get sick of him, I should just leave ? I shouldn’t invest any energy into fixing the relationship; it was a mismatch, walking out is the best option.

    because you don’t think much of the guys around you, a blogger you’ve never met must have the same problems, and you can’t fathom that any guy could do differently

    I like middle-aged businessmen; they tend to be respectful. They also maintain eye contact while engaging in conversations; even the Betas. I find said trait endearing. It makes me feel special.

    I like how you had to throw in that you’re hot. Just so we get the message that we should listen to you

    You should listen to me because one day you’ll be sitting all alone and wondering why you can’t find a decent young lady to settle down with.

    I would never consider dating you because I would be afraid you’d dump me out of the blue for absolutely no reason; the same thing you did to your ex.

    I’m beautiful nice girl. If I had a boyfriend I wouldn’t cheat on him with an alpha. I’d treat my boyfriend well and love him. If we had any relationship problems I’d try my best to work them out.

    …am I naive for thinking that I deserve better than a man that might randomly leave me, without even an explanation?

    I’m not usually impudent. I’m typically mild mannered and sweet but this whole post really got my upset. How can everyone else agree that your ex did something wrong?

    Am I just too young to comprehend this?

    I feel really sad and upset. I don’t think I want to visit the manosphere anymore.

    I was looking for useful advice but I don’t think the advice I need is something I’d ever find here.

    The Mrs. Walsh accusing me of being a troll-thing also made me sad. I liked her blog…

  24. OffTheCuff

    BF, there’s useful advice to be had, but in general, you are going to have establish your bona-fides before you start dispensing advice, especially to well-known guys like Badger who have extensive histories of consitenly good and honest advice. What do you bring to the table?

    Now, everyone can learn from each other — that’s why we are here. For example, I’ve been married for 13 years… I can give advice on how to keep a marriage together or for a women to attract a greater beta; but I really can’t comment how to assemble and maintain a harem.

    Your posts come off as both naive and presumptuous. You will also have to develop a thicker skin. Threatening to run off because you don’t like being called out on your bullshit isn’t going to work — nobody will follow you and beg you to come back. But that’s the price for learning what the world is really like; if you want to be coddled in some comfortable cocoon, there are plenty of other places where you can get that.

    If you can stick around you’ll learn a lot, especially from wise women like Sue and Stephenie and Grerp. Read HUS and The Lost Art Of Self-Preservation for Women to start. Branch out to the male-authored blogs if you can handle it.

    Being beautiful and nice, will get you a lot leeway in real life… but it’s not a free pass here.

  25. OffTheCuff – pretty sure a pile of cash is key to harem building. The rest is details :-)

  26. detinennui32

    @ Badger:
    I greatly appreciate this blog and your work here. Thanks for this detailed post. I can tell you poured some heart and thought into it.

    After reviewing more of the comments I went back and read this, and Butterfly Flower’s comment, and then the followups. I feel compelled to respond to Flower’s last comment, too.

    I didn’t at first get that Flower thought you dumped your LTR. I also didn’t get the cultural presumption that if the man does the breaking up he’s a dishonest cad, but if the woman does the deed she’s just being “true to herself”.

    One of the services I think Badger is helping with here in the manosphere is to encourage us men that it’s OK for us to be men. Speaking for myself, I’m recognizing that my feelings, actions, behaviors and attractions are normal, and they aren’t always controllable. Sometimes things just don’t work out for whatever reason. Too much beta repels. More alpha attracts, but too much tends to be thuggish, overly aggressive and violent. There are biological imperatives behind this and the more we understand them, the better we as men can address them and respond to the women in our lives. And the sooner we can move on from failed relationships with a minimum of pain and effort.

    I’ve had some similar experiences and stayed way too long in relationships that were not working or that were never going to work. Every time I stayed it was because of oneitis, and I stayed until things got so bad that one of us just could not take it anymore. But if I did the breaking up it was always because I just did not like her as much as I thought, or we were a mismatch, or we wanted different things. When I did the breaking up I did not do it very well because I thought I was “doing something wrong”.

    Example. I met one girl in college. Average looks, smart, ambitious and honest. She treated me kindly, didn’t play head games, and was straight up about what she wanted. I chased her pretty hard at first. We went out a few times, we made great conversation, and I thought I might like her if we kept going, but the chemistry just wasn’t there. She was liking me a lot more than I liked her. We tried and tried, but I just wasn’t feeling it. So I just stopped seeing her and returning her calls. Her friends publicly shamed me for “hating on a sister”. When I saw her in public she would not talk to me other than a terse “Hi.”, and we had to work together for a time after that.

    After I started working I dated a woman for about 10 months. The sex was great, but that was about it. We got too close too fast. I was 25, she was 30 with a biological clock roaring like a freight train. She became clingy and needy. We got codependent to the point where we had each other and thought that was enough. We were incompatible from a religious standpoint. She would have crying fits at the drop of a hat and she could not express why (I wish I had known then what I know now about why, what they mean, and what to do). I did not consider her to be marriage material. My being her sole support system and social life drained me. So I broke up with her. It was ugly. She accused me of finding someone else, of cheating on her, and of lying to her about what I wanted. To this day she hates me, because in her mind she gave me everything and I repaid her with a symbolic slap in the face.

    Up until about three months ago, I knew nothing of game, evolutionary psychology, or the biochemistry and science of male-female relationships. The manosphere’s work in bringing this knowledge to men and helping them apply it is invaluable. We can now understand our past behaviors, how too much beta repels, how alpha attracts, how a mix of beta and alpha attracts and keeps a wife, how women see too much beta and too much alpha, why women broke up with us, and why we ended our past relationships with women.

    So when I broke up with college girl, I didn’t do something wrong, other than my failure to tell her that I did not want to date her anymore. Something was not right about the two of us together, it wasn’t working, and I was right to cut it off. Staying with her and forcing a relationship would have made us both miserable. The way to do it was to tell her face to face, “I don’t want to date you anymore.” And there was no shame in that.

    With 30 YO LTR, my error was in staying with her too long, and in not telling her much sooner that we just wanted different things and I did not want to date her anymore. Staying with her would have been a disaster for both of us. Had we married, it would have failed. I knew something was not right. I could not stay with someone who I knew wasn’t right for me. Ending the relationship was right for me, but not for her. That doesn’t make me a liar, or a cheat, or a bad person.

    Badger said: You’re young, but the sooner you learn this the better…relationships don’t have to end because of someone committing a “grievance.” There is a thing called mismatch. It can’t be “worked out” in a tearful climax. Life is not a romantic comedy.

    FLower said: Does this advice apply to marriages as well? So if I marry a guy but get sick of him, I should just leave ? I shouldn’t invest any energy into fixing the relationship; it was a mismatch, walking out is the best option.

    detineenui32 says: Apples and oranges. There’s also a difference between an LTR and marriage. First, if you’re mismatched, the LTR should end. Second, anyone with a reasonable amount of perception sbould be able to figure out there’s a mismatch before wedding vows are exchanged. Third, knowledge in the manosphere brings that perception and knowledge to bear. Fourth, you can get over being “sick of someone”. Everyone gets “sick of” a spouse now and then. But that’s different from being a mismatch. You can’t fix a mismatch. Fifth, your argument belies a cavalier attitude toward marriage. If you’ve married a mismatch, you didn’t do your homework. If you’re “sick of” your spouse, you’ll get over it. Marriage should never be entered into or ended lightly.

    Badger doesn’t need me to defend him. But your comments show that you’re purposefully misunderstanding his post and the followup comments. He did not “dump” his LTR for “absolutely no reason”. He explained the reasons and they are sufficient. Ending an LTR because the chemistry isn’t there, or you want different things, or it’s just not working, are more than adequate and ample reasons.

    I don’t think anyone is saying that Badger’s ex did something wrong. He certainly isn’t saying that. In my experiences, college girl and 30 YO LTR did not do anything wrong and they did not do anything to precipitate the breakups. When you strip away everything else, they were just following biological imperatives. College girl was looking for the best possible husband she could find with whom to make babies. If it wasn’t me, it would have been someone else (and in fact pretty soon after that, it was someone else). 30 YO was listening to her bio clock and looking to lock in a beta provider. We were just mismatched. It just wasn’t working. We tried, but it was not working. We could not keep trying to force something. I could not make myself love someone that I did not love. I could not stay with someone who wanted different things, despite my being in love with her.

    FLower, this is where you’re missing it. I took a lot of words and examples for me to say it. The point is – a mismatch is just that. It does not mean the man is wrong or the woman is wrong. It just means it did not work for whatever reason. We have to respect our gut when it tells us this isn’t right.

    Flower, you’d do well to stay here and soak up what the manosphere has to offer. Feminism has done you and your older sisters a real disservice. Both you — and we men — have been lied to for a long time about how men and women really find each other for long lasting, fulfilling relationships. Don’t buy the lie. Find and apply the truth.

  27. Butterfly Flower, when I was younger I thought that way, too. All men were horrible and bad for dumping the girl. The person you date in high school will be your lifelong mate. Then I grew up, dumped a few guys, got dumped a few times, and I realized that we do not live in a fairytale fantasy world.

    You are in fact doing someone a favor (in a sense) by being brutally honest with that person, and letting him/her know that you have fundamental incompatibilities and cannot spend the rest of your life together. If the guy before I met my husband had not turned me down, I would not be with my husband today.

    I highly doubt that Badger “randomly” left his LTR of over 2 years without explanation. He chose not to share everything with us, but you’re filling in the blanks for him with your presumptions. I’ve been in several LTRs that spanned years. It sucked every time one ended, but they all had their own reasons.

    Also, Badger is giving you valuable advice if you can bear to hear it. Women are not perfect creatures, and men are not always the ones to blame. We women need to take responsibility for our own actions. It is the right thing to do, as well as the prudent thing to learn. We cannot play the eternal victim. That might work when you’re 19, beautiful and innocent, but it won’t work when you’re older, less fresh-faced and should really know better.

    Finally, crappy things happen in life. They just do. Our baby son died. Our investments dropped in value. Our family members have health issues. Does it matter what the reason is? Even if you know the reason, you can’t control other people, and you can’t control the world. All you can do is control yourself and your reactions. Nobody is rejoicing in this event and giving him high five’s for ending this relationship, because it’s obviously a painful event. Why are you here adding fuel to the firestorm, and then getting upset when people tell you that you shouldn’t?

  28. detinennui32

    OfftheCuff stole my thunder.

  29. “I don’t think anyone is saying that Badger’s ex did something wrong. He certainly isn’t saying that. In my experiences, college girl and 30 YO LTR did not do anything wrong and they did not do anything to precipitate the breakups. When you strip away everything else, they were just following biological imperatives.”

    Actually, I asked if she did do something wrong. The reason is the following.

    I think women do a lot of things wrong in relationships, and do a lot of things to precipitate breakups. Yes, we follow biological imperatives, but we also have cultural imperatives. Right now the prevailing cultural imperatives are toxic to long-term relationships.

    For example, the idea that the woman should be “empowered” and “bossy” in relationships, or the idea that the man should be “nagged into doing household chores.” These are contrary to biology, yet they are preached so often that women just follow them without understanding why it leads to so much argument and problems in relationships.

    “We were just mismatched. It just wasn’t working. We tried, but it was not working. We could not keep trying to force something. I could not make myself love someone that I did not love.”

    That part can be true. That’s uncontrollable. No matter what the woman does, she cannot force compatibility. But she can work on herself and create a smoother relationship. She can be more self-aware and less of a drama queen. In the case of the 30 year old, she could have been honest, straightforward and discussed the differences like an adult with you. Then you would have parted ways amicably instead of this ugly hailstorm, her accusing you of things you did not do. She still would have found a man who would marry her, but without all this resentment and nastiness from her past.

    A woman who can handle the honest truth (including criticism!) maturely and responsibly is better than a woman who cannot, both for her own sake and the sake of those around her. And men, don’t be afraid to tell the women in your life that they need to work on themselves. My husband told me what I needed to work on from the beginning, while also being very honest that he also needs to work on himself. Nobody is perfect. We’re all works in progress. Mature adults understand this and strive toward this.

  30. Doug1

    Butterfly Flower—

    Badger-You’re young, but the sooner you learn this the better…relationships don’t have to end because of someone committing a “grievance.” There is a thing called mismatch. It can’t be “worked out” in a tearful climax. Life is not a romantic comedy.

    Does this advice apply to marriages as well?

    No.

    Marriages involve or should involve very different levels of commitment. That’s particularly true of marriages with children. It doesn’t even sound like this is a living together situation, or I think that would have come out in Badger’s discussing the difficulties in breaking up. As well one should do a whole lot of testing for match vs. mismatch before getting married, and in my opinion have a living together period as well to more deeply explore that. (Actually I’d advise men against getting married unless they want children right away and then only with a prenup that mimics living together in the event of a divorce.)

    It’s only been a 9 month long relationship. In many ways dating in a LTR is testing for match and mismatch. Badger found his answer. His best course is definitely to break up.

    As well not wanting to have sex with him for a month, especially so early in the relationship and with no illness etc. as a reason, is a pretty grievous fault in my book, though you could call that a mismatch as well if you like.

    Just about nobody criticizes girls for breaking up in a LTR of this length or considerably longer, if they aren’t feeling it enough anymore, or feel there’s too big a mismatch. Just about never hear it when girls do it, which they do a lot higher percentage of the time, at least with betas. You’re obviously projecting yourself into this and your feeling that you wouldn’t want a guy to break up with you unless you did something hideous. Guess what sister – no dice.

  31. Doug1

    Looks like I mixed up a couple of relationships Badger was commenting on with his own, in so far as the 9 months long LTR bit and the no sex for a month bit goes. But that really doesn’t matter. I’d have said the same things regardless. If he feels there’s a mismatch, he should move on. He’s not married and doesn’t have kids with the woman. Next.

  32. Butterfly Flower

    Flower, you’d do well to stay here and soak up what the manosphere has to offer. Feminism has done you and your older sisters a real disservice. Both you — and we men — have been lied to for a long time about how men and women really find each other for long lasting, fulfilling relationships. Don’t buy the lie. Find and apply the truth.

    Growing up, I was never exposed to Feminism’s philistine ideology. I would have no trouble maintaining a fulfilling long lasting relationship. Stop confusing me with something I’m not.

    Looks like I mixed up a couple of relationships Badger was commenting on with his own, in so far as the 9 months long LTR bit and the no sex for a month bit goes. But that really doesn’t matter. I’d have said the same things regardless. If he feels there’s a mismatch, he should move on. He’s not married and doesn’t have kids with the woman. Next.

    I found his whole post quite deceiving. He wrote it in a way that made it seem like his ex did something wrong. He compared his failed relationship to a relationship that failed because the girl was a slut.

    Why am I the only one who felt like he was blaming his ex for the break-up? If she didn’t do anything wrong, then he should have made the post a little more clear!


    BF, there’s useful advice to be had, but in general, you are going to have establish your bona-fides before you start dispensing advice, especially to well-known guys like Badger who have extensive histories of consistently good and honest advice. What do you bring to the table?

    I’m a well bred young lady. I don’t suffer from any of these problems or hang ups you people always complain about.

    If I dated a guy [there would be no sex in the relationship] who said he loved me, then a few months later left me out of the blue without an explanation, I’d be awfully pissed.

    “We just don’t click…”

    “Why…?”

    “….”

    Badger never left an answer. It was just his ex’s fault, and everyone ate up said explanation.

    The “we just don’t work out” thing could have been something as stupid as “I don’t like the scent of fabric softer she uses”.

    My complaints have nothing to do with feminism brainwashing, this has to do with me being a girl raised around honest, trustworthy men.

    I don’t think Badger is as honest as he claims to be. If he was, then he would have listed the exact reason why he broke up with the girl. Not just “IDK, she could’ve been better…”

  33. Butterfly, are you so inquisitive when one of your girlfriends breaks up with a guy?

  34. Butterfly Flower

    Butterfly, are you so inquisitive when one of your girlfriends breaks up with a guy?

    …I don’t have many girlfriends that are my age.

    The girlfriends I do have aren’t having sexual relationships with the guys they date. So when a guy breaks up with one of them, we just assume he was in it for sex and realized he wasn’t going to get any.

  35. @Butterfly Flower
    I apologize for offending you. I did not mean to call you a troll at all – it was just that your first comment read quite a bit like something Plain Jane might write. And she’s written some good things. She is a troll for a variety of reasons, including constantly changing her name, constantly dragging every thread off-topic, and an insistence that every discussion be viewed through Indian culture.

    Please do stick around at HUS – I promise not to insult you any more :) The manosphere is a fascinating place, but there are corners of it I don’t even dare enter…it might help to hang with the girls first, as OTC suggests.

  36. Butterfly,

    So you have never ever had a girlfriend breaking up with a guy – and when a guy breaks with one of your girlfriends its because he wasnt able to get sex from her.

    I guess we´re talking about higschool

  37. I don’t Badger said either one of them did anything wrong. Just that he figured out that he and her weren’t going to be able to progress the relationship any further due to their differences.

  38. Butterfly Flower

    Butterfly,
    So you have never ever had a girlfriend breaking up with a guy – and when a guy breaks with one of your girlfriends its because he wasnt able to get sex from her.

    I guess we´re talking about high school

    I’m not in High School. I just think we’re from another social class so my cordial behavior sounds foreign to you.

    My friends are just like me; i.e. nice and sweet. They’ve broken up with guys before; but for legitimate reasons. Being disrespectful, pressuring for sex, generally acting too immature. They also told their ex-boyfriends why they dumped them; they didn’t just walk out on the guy without an explanation.

    If I ever dumped a guy I at one point loved, I’d certainly have reasons for dumping him. Love doesn’t suddenly become “IDK, we just don’t click…”

    It sounds like Badger wasn’t in love; he pretended to be so he could have sex with a girl and not feel guilty.

    @Butterfly Flower
    I apologize for offending you. I did not mean to call you a troll at all – it was just that your first comment read quite a bit like something Plain Jane might write. And she’s written some good things. She is a troll for a variety of reasons, including constantly changing her name, constantly dragging every thread off-topic, and an insistence that every discussion be viewed through Indian culture.

    Please do stick around at HUS – I promise not to insult you any more :) The manosphere is a fascinating place, but there are corners of it I don’t even dare enter…it might help to hang with the girls first, as OTC suggests.

    I’m Catholic. Although I guess I can see the similarities, Indian households are very traditional. I look at problems from a Catholic perspective and naively assume others do the same. It sounds like Plain Jane was doing the same thing, but from a Hindi [?] perspective.

    I don’t want to run away from here for a stupid reason, it’s just most of the people in the manosphere kind of seem, well…unhappy and bitter. I haven’t gotten any useful advice. I used to like the quiet Beta types but now I’m not so sure. It took approximately two weeks for me to realize they’re all just whiny brats who don’t bother to try very hard. It sounds like Betas are incapable of differentiating between good girls and whores. If they make mistakes or bad judgments, they blame other people [or society] for their mistakes. I have a strong sense of personal responsibility. I’d admit to mistakes if I were to do something wrong in a relationship. Why is it so wrong to want a partner with the courage to do the same?

    I think I’ll join a dating service for traditional-minded religious folk. My devout sensibilities are just too different from everyone else in the manosphere.

  39. “I just think we’re from another social class so my cordial behavior sounds foreign to you. ”

    Snobbery ill-becomes you.

    “It sounds like Badger wasn’t in love; he pretended to be so he could have sex with a girl and not feel guilty.”

    No. They broke up because heading toward a marriage together would have been a mistake for both of them. Why is this so hard to believe?

    “I think I’ll join a dating service for traditional-minded religious folk. My devout sensibilities are just too different from everyone else in the manosphere.”

    You might like http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/ she’s a Christian woman writing around some of these issues that the manosphere covers.

    Good luck with the dating service.

  40. Butterfly Flower

    Snobbery ill-becomes you.

    My snobbery is justified. I come from a world where meaningless sexual indiscretions are frowned upon. Slutty girls are openly shamed. I don’t associate with trash.

    You might like http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/ she’s a Christian woman writing around some of these issues that the manosphere covers.

    Thank you for the wonderful link, Mr. Kay. It was very courteous of you to find a blog that I could fit in with.

    Wow, I really identify with this post:

    http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/minefield/#comments

    Especially Paige’s reaction to the men’s negative comments. I used to disagree with her on a few things, but now she’s earned my respect.

    That is my impression of the mansophere. It took just two weeks for me to get fed up and disgusted.

    The manosphere doesn’t help beta guys get good girls; it makes good girls think betas are whiny spineless creeps incapable of not being miserable.

    I hate the way everyone here automatically assumes I’m some brainwashed feminazi [even though that doesn't make much sense, I think lesser of those types of girls] whenever I disagree with something.

    Just because some of you guys were too stupid to realize you were dating/marrying a soulless whore and got screwed over, doesn’t mean all women are soulless whores!

  41. Pingback: Linkage is Good for You: Defying Gravity Edition

  42. Butterfly Flower – that soulless whores will screw a man over is one of the primary insights of the manosphere. I don’t believe anyone disagrees with that.

    I don’t believe you’re a feminazi at all. I do think that you are rubbing salt into the wounds of the “screwed over” though with your judgmental and sel-righteous attitude though. This is why people are reacting against your comments so strongly.

    I don’t believe snobbery is a fruit of the spirit. I believe snobbery is a synonym for pride.

  43. Kathy

    Butterfly Flower, is young.. Idealistic. Faithfull to her Catholic upbringing..

    She is not judgemental or self righteous.. Her thoughts are pure(as far as sex and relationships go) Hard for the materialistic, atheistic and hedonistic types to get their heads around, I know..

    As she says..
    “My snobbery is justified. I come from a world where meaningless sexual indiscretions are frowned upon. Slutty girls are openly shamed. I don’t associate with trash.”

    I wholeheartedly agree with what she says..

  44. If the trash were good enough for Jesus to associate with and reach out to…

  45. Kathy

    Jesus did not condone sin.. He mixed with sinners (and really WE ARE ALL SINNERS) in order to convert them..The trash were NOT good enough..

    Jesus opened his heart to all, in order to transform the hearts of the trash..

    Trash, who are quite proud and happy with themselves and see no wrong in what they are doing aren’t worth the time of day.

    Smart arse atheists, who seek to use Jesus to discredit fervent Christians are a right pain in the Ath..ol! :)

    Are you suggesting that Butterfly Flower should associate with trash, now?

  46. I’m saying she should open her heart.

  47. Kathy

    To what?
    Some slag of a man who has stuck it up a slew of women, and expects to marry a woman with little or no sexual experience, to bear his children, while he himself taps a bit of ass on the side??

    Gimme a break! Butterfly Flower is right to wait for a decent and faithfull man who will be completely commited to her for the long haul..

  48. When someone has a relationship failure, it’s cruel to start lecturing them about their failures (real or imagined) while they are still in the emotional fallout of the relationship ending.

    There is very little that I disagree with that Butterfly Flower has said. I’ve been raked over the coals myself for being pro-marriage and suggesting that virginity is a good thing for example. I’m disagreeing with the way she has said it and her attitude of contempt for the pain of others.

    Opening your heart and seeking to heal rather than hurt… isn’t that the message of Christ? Or when you see someone bruised and bleeding on the side of the road, do you cross to the other side?

    I know I’m a pain in the ass. But then if I’m quoting scripture at you and you don’t like what I’m saying, it’s not really me you have a problem with is it. :)

    Anyway – Happy Mothers Day Kathy.

  49. detinennui32

    Interesting discussion among Flower, Athol and now Kathy.

    Kathy: You’re painting with too broad a brush. Not all in the manosphere are here to learn hardcore game or become PUAs. I’m married, in my 40s and came here to get a better marriage. The application of game to marriage means betas add more alpha traits. Most men are betas (natural providers, givers, nonaggressive). Women — ALL women — respond to men with alpha traits (assertive, leaders, displaying charisma, charm and power). You might not want to admit it, but it’s true. Women want their men to lead them. Betas can learn alpha traits. So Kathy, for you to say that all men in the manosphere are “slags” is simply not true, and you know it’s not true.

    You’re also engaging in ad hominem argument when you attack Athol’s atheism, and suggest that his contentions are less credible because he is an atheist. But his personal beliefs don’t detract from the credibility of his claims.

    Flower — betas aren’t whiny brats. At least not the ones who have come here. The betas and other men I’ve seen in most corners of the manosphere are here to learn how not to make the same mistakes they made before, how to keep their wives/LTRs happy, and how to root out the good women from the bad ones. I think if you stick around long enough, you’ll see that’s a lot of what’s going on. Sure, there are those who are here to complain, and MGTOW, and those who have given up, and those who are hardcore PUA hedonists acting purely out of self-interest to the detriment of some women. But I don’t sense that’s what most of the manosphere is about. I’m all about making my woman happy so she stays with me. She’s better off with me than without me. I’m better off with her than without her. My children need both of us. How can I make her happy? By adding more alpha. By leading her, sexing her up right, well and often, telling her no when necessary, and protecting her from her hyperemotional state. It’s not wrong. It’s what she needs. It’s what she’s been crying out for for a long time. Now I know.

    Happy MOther’s Day.

  50. Kathy

    Hey your your scripture quoting does not bother me in the least, it has no substance.. You are an atheist..

    I have no problem with genuine sincere people who wish to change their trashy ways.. We are not talking good Samaritans here.. Athol.

    Picking up some bruised and battered person on the roadside out of compassion is not the same as going out with some trashy Alpha who just wants to get into your pants before moving on to the next conquest.. BF is wise getting involved with trashy types and risk having her heart trampled on..
    “I know I’m a pain in the ass.”
    Lol!.. Your internet asshole game ain’t workin’ on me fella ;).

    Thanks for the well wishes, and I hope Jennifer has a Happy Mothers Day too. :D

  51. Kathy

    ” So Kathy, for you to say that all men in the manosphere are “slags” is simply not true, and you know it’s not true”

    That’s right, and I never said that they were. You are putting words in my mouth, here.
    I said that the men who use women for sex are slags.. Big difference..

    Athol for instance is not a slag… Just because I disagree with him on some things.. I don’t think badger is a slag. You are not a slag.. eg.

    Yes, women want their men to lead them.. I agree with that.. Always have..
    My husband leads me… Even though I am a right pain in the arse sometimes.. I keep him on his toes.. But, he knows how to soothe the savage beast. He’s good at that. ;)

    Happy Mothers day to your wife too.

  52. “It sounds like Badger wasn’t in love; he pretended to be so he could have sex with a girl and not feel guilty.”

    BF clearly thought Badger was a slag though. That’s my problem with her.

  53. Kathy

    Well if she did, I think that she was wrong in her interpretation.

  54. Well if she did, I think that she was wrong in her interpretation.

    yes

  55. Butterfly,

    [guys] Being disrespectful, pressuring for sex, generally acting too immature.

    So your girlfriends did breakup with guys? you just said that never happened… Anyway, it seems like:

    1) When a guy breaks up with any of your friends is because he couldnt get sex from her.
    2) When one of your friends breaks up with a guy, is because he did something (cited above).

    In either case, you are not as inquisitive with your friends about their breakups, because? I guess the guys were not worth it. Your friends play the good part and the guys play the bad part. Am I getting this right?

  56. She said he lied to her and led her on just to get sex from her. Yet the post was about how painful and upset he was at the breakup.

    “You should be admitting to your own weaknesses [cowardice?] before you criticize the innocent girl whom you led on .”

    “It sounds like Badger’s LTR failed because he was flighty and selfish. He’d rather dump the girl than work out the relationship issues.”

    I just think she’s cruel for unloading that on him.

  57. Kathy

    Yes, I would agree with you there, Athol.
    It was rather insensitive on her part.
    She does not appear to be able to empathize with Badger’s predicament.. He obviously gave the relationship a great deal of thought.. It wasn’t easy for him.. And of course it WAS very painful..

  58. For the record, Badger actually asked for input and advice on his relationship a couple of months back on one of my comment threads. He has been incredibly thoughtful and careful about this decision, there was no shortage of effort on Badger’s part. He has made it clear in writing these posts that he loves her, and that the end of the relationship is extremely painful.

    Badger and his ex are at an age where a year here and there matter. It is in everyone’s best interest to end a relationship that is not headed for full partnership and commitment, however you define that. This frees them both up to find someone more compatible. This is not something Badger did to her. Ending a relationship that is not thriving and will not thrive is far wiser than doubling down on the commitment. We all know where that leads.

  59. Butterfly Flower

    Butterfly Flower, is young.. Idealistic. Faithfull to her Catholic upbringing..
    She is not judgemental or self righteous.. Her thoughts are pure(as far as sex and relationships go) Hard for the materialistic, atheistic and hedonistic types to get their heads around, I know..

    I didn’t mean to sound cruel or insensitive. I’m a brutally honest individual. Catholics do tend to be a bit self-righteous, but it’s more along the lines of “look at those sinners, they need to be chastised about their sinning!” We’re not doing it for an ego trip, we’re trying to help sinners identify their mistakes.

    She does not appear to be able to empathize with Badger’s predicament.. He obviously gave the relationship a great deal of thought.. It wasn’t easy for him.. And of course it WAS very painful..

    ….Why should I? His pain was self inflicted.

    Who gets into a serious long term relationship with someone they feel “meh” about? If he really loved her and the break-up was so painful, then why didn’t he just stay around and try to fix the problems?

    Or did he just keep a list of grievances in his head, never told her any of the issues, then left when they were too much for him to handle?

    If they were serious incompatibility issues [like she wants a family/doesn't want a family] then he shouldn’t have entered the relationship in the first place.

    It sounds like the only thing he’ll really miss from her is the sex.

    “It sounds like Badger’s LTR failed because he was flighty and selfish. He’d rather dump the girl than work out the relationship issues.”
    I just think she’s cruel for unloading that on him.

    Well, he needs to hear the truth. I’m not being cruel. I think it’s cruel to pat Badger’s back and pretend he never made any mistakes. What if he finds a new girlfriend and does the same thing all over again? He’ll never be happy if he doesn’t have the balls to be upfront in a relationship from the start.

    “We just didn’t work out” is avoidable if you’re honest. A few dates in you’ll identify the incompatibility and part ways. A nine month LTR? That means someone wasn’t being honest or ignoring issues.

  60. Eumaios

    Butterfly Flower: “‘We just didn’t work out’ is avoidable if you’re honest. A few dates in you’ll identify the incompatibility and part ways. A nine month LTR? That means someone wasn’t being honest or ignoring issues.”

    You have extensive personal experience to back up this bald assertion?

  61. Living Life Without a Net

    Great post, Badger. On so many counts.

    I don’t know if it’s a collective blogosphere reaction to spring, or simply confirmation bias, or what, but this topic — men moving on when faced with an incompatible female companion — seems to be all over the place lately.

    It’s so important for us men-folk to remember that we aren’t generally what the ultra-feminist community portrays. We are looking for security, comfort, encouragement, and all those other emotional safety nets in life. And we hurt when we lose them, just like women. And more importantly, we need to be as choosy for our long term needs as women are constantly encouraged to be.

    Congratulations to you for making the best rational decision in spite of such strong emotions pulling the other way.

  62. I didn’t mean to sound cruel or insensitive. I’m a brutally honest individual. “Catholics do tend to be a bit self-righteous, but it’s more along the lines of “look at those sinners, they need to be chastised about their sinning!” We’re not doing it for an ego trip, we’re trying to help sinners identify their mistakes.”

    The post was an admission of him making mistakes. Your input was to rub salt into his wounds.

    “If they were serious incompatibility issues [like she wants a family/doesn't want a family] then he shouldn’t have entered the relationship in the first place.”

    That was what he wrote the post was about.

    “Well, he needs to hear the truth. I’m not being cruel. I think it’s cruel to pat Badger’s back and pretend he never made any mistakes. What if he finds a new girlfriend and does the same thing all over again? He’ll never be happy if he doesn’t have the balls to be upfront in a relationship from the start.”

    He admitted the truth. That was what the post was about. The majority of comments were in praise of Badger admitting to his mistakes, to the hard road of correcting them and to not repeating them in the future.

    “We just didn’t work out” is avoidable if you’re honest. A few dates in you’ll identify the incompatibility and part ways. A nine month LTR? That means someone wasn’t being honest or ignoring issues.”

    Takes longer than a few dates. Most people don’t settle down and show their true relationship selves until 10-12 dates. And again… that was what the post was about.

  63. OffTheCuff

    BF: I find it entertaining you’re busting Athol’s ass here on theology, considering that he actually went to seminary, and I’m guessing you have not.

    I encourage you to read http://grerp.blogspot.com/ rather than other recommendations, for advice with a Christian slant. Grerp has experience and success in what she’s talking about.

    Again, hold off badgering Badger. You have no clue what you’re talking about. See what I said above about dispensing advice with no experience to back it up. You’re filling in the the missing detail in his story and assigning motivations with your own imagination, based on how you *think* men act.

  64. OffTheCuff, I followed the link and watching the video:

    Aguilera walking down into a poor neighborhood dressed as a slut. Some pimp looking dude grabs her ass, and she starts singing “nobody will hold us down”

    Does he supposedly “hates” her and wants to hold her down and thats why he is grabbing her ass? I thought he wanted sex? plus she was advertising it

    Hey, he doesnt have the right to grab your ass so please slap the guy. But making it about the oppressed sluts rights? who wants to “hold down” sluts? what are they going to do if allowed to walk freely? change the world? invent something dangerous?

    How about not walking like a slut in front of that dude. Or changing streets. Or calling the cops.

  65. “BF: I find it entertaining you’re busting Athol’s ass here on theology, considering that he actually went to seminary, and I’m guessing you have not.”

    Minor correction here. I didn’t go to seminary, but I was very very close to going. I was very much into my faith for a long time and meet Jennifer when I was asked teach an entire retreat weekend at her college when I was 21. Jennifer did complete her Religious Studies degree and I completed Sociology with a heavy Religious Studies set of classes. I did about a year and a half of full time work with The Bible Society in New Zealand as well.

    Jennifer’s maid of honor (who introduced us) and best friend/roomate both became ministers. My best man has gone through Bible College and does a ton of church work over the years as well. I always had a sense I was the one who was meant to shine the brightest though.

    I choose not to persue going into the ministry because I was having some critical concerns about my belief in God. The career-fail of losing faith and being a minister is beyond awful. Also Jennifer is by nature a quiet shy girl who likes her privacy, and I didn’t want her to have to live a life under the pastor’s wife glare…

    …which of course is a perfect explaination of why I write about our sex life on the Internet.

    I do miss those days in many many ways and I am acutely aware of how pastoral MMSL really is in approach. I wanted to write and teach my whole life, but nearly fifteen years had to pass before I could again.

  66. Butterfly Flower

    The post was an admission of him making mistakes. Your input was to rub salt into his wounds

    Um, not really. The only mistake he really admitted to was staying in the relationship too long. He didn’t admit to any specific mistakes he made during the relationship. He vaguely implied his ex was being codependent.

    And in my opinion, I backdoored myself into a codependence scenario – not only was my life not as interesting as I wanted, I was hesitant to push issues or (eventually) break up because I felt like I was all she had.

    How exactly was she being codependent? He never answered that question. He just yelled at me when I asked for clarification. Wanting to know why he broke up with his ex made me a trolling brainwashed feminazi.

    You have extensive personal experience to back up this bald assertion?

    …it’s more like common sense.

    Don’t wear your heart on your sleeve. Don’t get involved in a long term relationship without knowing your significant other’s life goals. Be honest to your significant other. Don’t ignore relationship problems, talk them out.

    Again, hold off badgering Badger. You have no clue what you’re talking about. See what I said above about dispensing advice with no experience to back it up. You’re filling in the the missing detail in his story and assigning motivations with your own imagination, based on how you *think* men act.

    I’m not assigning motivations, that’s what it looks like from an innocent young lady’s point of view.

    It looks like he didn’t have the courage to fix his relationship problems. If he really loved her, he would have at least tried to save the relationship.

    If they were so incompatible, why did he stay in the relationship for so long?

    I’m sick of having the guys here accuse me of misandry.

    If you can’t tell the difference between a good girl and a soulless whore, you then don’t deserve a good girl.

    Mr. Kay, you wrote a whole book trying to help men pick out good wives and maintain/save a marriage.

    The thing is, you failed to realize good girls aren’t fruit on a tree waiting to get picked by a potential husband. We have brains, we think. We damn well know our own SMP values.

    I wouldn’t want to date a loser that’s incapable of articulating his own feelings/opinions. Imagine if I do something wrong, and the Beta never tells me? He just bottles the grievances up inside and slowly grows more miserable.

    Taming an Alpha sounds easier. As long as you’re sexy, they’re happy. If you do something wrong, they’ll tell you.

    Hm…

    Could Bad Girls like Betas ’cause they know Betas are wimpy enough to let them get away with misbehaving? An Alpha wouldn’t want his girlfriend slutting around with other men.

    ’cause that might explain why Betas tend to get screwed over so often by girls….

  67. Doug1

    Butterfly Flower–

    The manosphere doesn’t help beta guys get good girls; it makes good girls think betas are whiny spineless creeps incapable of not being miserable.

    In many ways the manosphere is an unfortunate phrase. There are basically two poles of the manosphere, the MRA side such as the Spearhead, most of whose commenters do seem to me as well to be as you described above, and the game pole. What much of the manosphere has in common is picking apart the harm done to men and women as well by feminism. Though by no means all or probably most game sites do that. Roissy’s sure does though. What people are now calling the manosphere they used to call the Roissysphere six months ago and before. I think that was a better term. Most of the bloggers who are now referred to as the manosphere started out commenting at Roissy’s and then opened blogs.

    Game oriented sites do help guys tons with that. Yeah most of them focus on getting lots of sluts, but not all of them. Actually even Roissy likes to fall in love, but admittedly not for all that long, a year or so it seems, with lots of girl sampling in between these relationships. But most of the techniques with more patience combined with a willingness to give commitment work with good and very good girls too.

    There are two poles to game blogs too. The picking up lots of not so good girls for the most part one. But then Athol Kay’s blog, this one and Dalrock’s for example focus on LTR or marriage game, and in the case of Dalrocks on social issues surrounding the feminist erosion of marriage and encouraging high rates of divorce as well. I think you’d like Athol Kay’s blog, even though it’s aimed mostly at people older than yourself who are already in marriages or LTRs.

    Kathy–Some slag of a man who has stuck it up a slew of women, and expects to marry a woman with little or no sexual experience, to bear his children, while he himself taps a bit of ass on the side??

    Gimme a break! Butterfly Flower is right to wait for a decent and faithfull man who will be completely commited to her for the long haul..

    Kathy you’re getting your types mixed up. The bitter and loserish beta types comment on many of the MRA type blogs, the Spearhead being a prime example. Most of the post writers don’t seem to be as Butterfly Flower describes, but most of the commenters do. At the spearhead they seem heavily to be betas who got terrible screwed over in divorce, or omegas and lower betas who’ve given up, and just don’t want to try to get better with women, even for dating without marriage.

    These guys however have not “stuck it up a slew of women”. Those who have are by gamesphere definition some kind of alpha, and rarely bitter about women. Cynical often yes, but not bitter.

    Lots of betas on game sites such as Roissy’s aren’t bitter but eagerly and hopefully trying to get better at attracting cute, pretty and beautiful girls. They also haven’t “stuck it up a slew of women, by definition. Some of them want to learn to be able to; most just want to attract a pretty girl they can love and vice versa.

  68. OffTheCuff

    Wow, Sue called it. BF’s last post *really* looks like Plain Jane now, and is starting to get on the usual axe-grinding topics. Tread carefully, folks.

  69. Kathy

    “You have extensive personal experience to back up this bald assertion?”
    Yes this is the problem isn’t it, Eumaios?
    BF at 19 has had NO experience… (and I am not talking sex here)

    “Don’t wear your heart on your sleeve. Don’t get involved in a long term relationship without knowing your significant other’s life goals. Be honest to your significant other. Don’t ignore relationship problems, talk them out.”

    It’s not always that cut and dried BF..People can and do change..Sometimes unforseen things occur..

    When I was 19 I married my first husband ..(I was a virgin)
    I was not aware that he was a compulsive gambler at the time.. He hid it well. I was head over heels in love with him, though..
    The marriage ended (not because I wanted it to end) because the situation escalated when he found out that he was infertile.. he turned to drinking and eventually started playing around.. I was so terribly hurt and angry .

    He constantly told me to leave him and find a man that could give me the children that he could not.. I didn’t want to leave him..The infidelity forced me to leave in the end.. It was something that I could not bear..

    It was only after the grief and pain had subsided in me that I came to understand what torment and pain that he must have gone through.. He dearly loved kids.. To find out he could not father a child.. just pushed him over the edge..

    People make mistakes BF.. We are human beings not automatons..Sometimes we have no control over a situation .

    Whilst I agree that it would be foolish to become involved with a feckless and promiscuous man, I think that you are lacking in understanding, compassion and wisdom, where Badger is concerned..

    He never used the girl up for sex at all. And you are wrong to accuse him of doing so..

    “Youth is wasted on the young” George Bernard Shaw.. Indeed ;)

    As you mature you will gain more knowledge of relationships and human nature.. And , have a better understanding of human frailties.

  70. I have to say it’s a point of great pride for my blog to attract such an insatiable troll.

    But this also demonstrates the point I made above and in the subsequent update post. Listen, men: there are people who believe a man can do no right in a breakup, and the facts are literally irrelevant to them. They are true believers; reality is an unknown frontier and they will simply ignore the truth and make up slander-esque alternate fact to fit their preconceived conclusion.

    On another note, Butterfly’s screed illustrates a major problem in modern religious America: deep busybodying self-righteousness, combined with a colossal cluelessness. Not only do they insist on telling people they’ve never met what they’ve done wrong and which afterlife they’ll be going to, they declare their own superiority and how unlike us they are above their human natures; if we’d just done it THEIR way they wouldn’t have any problems in life. This from people who have, on balance, done basically nothing to earn any position to dictate behavior to others.

  71. Butterfly Flower

    I’m not Plain Jane/anyone else/a troll. Whenever I try to make a comment I get accused of being a troll or a feminazi whore.

    I’ve been involved in the Manosphere for two weeks and I’m leaving. I’m too young and not bitter to understand this place.

    I’m just a girl that came in here without any prior knowledge of Betas. I thought it meant shy guys.

    Now that I’ve learned more about Betas, I’m afraid of them. They sound like an emotionally abusive relationship just waiting to happen.

  72. Teras

    I applaud your resolve; I’m in the middle of something similar with my closest circle of friends from high school. We all split off in different directions after graduation and steadily changed to the point where it just wasn’t worth it anymore to bridge the gaps. We are still friends and god knows we would help each other out at a moment’s notice, but that quintessential quality of our friendship just evaporated over the last few years through no fault of our own.

    Our time is too limited and uncertain to let the inertia or history of a relationship continue to define that relationship. An honest re-appraisal, unpleasant as it is, can save you a lot of dysfunction and bitterness further on down the road. Learned that lesson firsthand from my parents and grandparents. Best of luck.

  73. The essential truths revealed in the Manosphere are, for many, very hard to accept. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

    Badger dealt with a tough emotional issue and faced it with honesty and strength.

    I hoist a beer to his efforts and his blog.

  74. “If they were so incompatible, why did he stay in the relationship for so long?”

    Very few judged me for this when I left my LTR of over 7 years. None of them were female. Like Kathy I had gone through my own issues and had some difficult break-ups.

    You think you can know everything about someone immediately. It’s not true. I knew we were incompatible several months into it with my ex-husband, but I was young and in love, and I wanted to work it out. Lots of facts didn’t come out until 7 years into the LTR, nearly 9 years after knowing him. Like the fact that he lied to me concerning essential information about his past since the very beginning. That was one of the deal-breakers, but at that point I had invested so much into it that I couldn’t really leave immediately.

    My old situation was different from Badger’s, but clearly whatever his situation was, he didn’t want to share all the gore and details with the world.

    You sound naive, and your world view has been changed a bit in your time uncovering some truths. Perhaps in time you will learn that it is far better to know early on the brutal, honest truth than to live in an ignorant, comfortable lie.

  75. The LP 999

    I was over at Susan’s reading and saw this link. I wish the gentlemen writer luck and happiness. I thought this was an insightful piece and written in kindness.

    It is remarkable to me that the writer did not list any faults but choose to discuss what was productive and what was important for a mutual future. The writer has done much growing up and that must be commended.

    Butterfly flower seems like a typical young girl struggling to understand the dynamic nature of relationships that sometimes go bad. It is not always easy, but all these struggle we have do come together for a answer or a conclusion.

  76. Eumaios

    BF: “Now that I’ve learned more about Betas, I’m afraid of them. They sound like an emotionally abusive relationship just waiting to happen.”

    Shazam!

  77. Confidunce,

    “I shuddered when I read this. Well said. Describes my failed marriage perfectly.”

    Sorry to hear that. It’s tough, I know.

    ancalgon,

    “I think this is the difference in how men’s and women’s minds work. Men like a strong, stable, perfect relationship, while women might enjoy the chemical high that comes from having an unstable relationship.”

    Partially yes, but also the culture has told men women want “commitment” and guys who want to “settle down.” This is a truth so incomplete as to be a lie – a LTR-oriented woman still needs the stimulation, and thus it is necessary that a man be able to reinvent himself on occasion and keep the excitement going. The “settle down” meme hurts men, associating marriage with normalcy and consistency and that alone can’t keep the dopamine wheel spinning.

    Athol,

    “Takes longer than a few dates. Most people don’t settle down and show their true relationship selves until 10-12 dates. And again… that was what the post was about.”

    I realize Athol got married off a long-distance engagement and it’s worked out great, but I doubt he’d deny it’s a risky setup. I’m of the opinion that you need a year or even two years to really get a glimpse of someone under a variety of situations and pressures…holidays with each other’s families, seasons, life changes, job changes, friends coming in and out of your life. You can talk yourselves blue in the face about how you want to live and what you’d do in certain situations, but you never know what you’ll really do until you have the opportunity. Dating is a trial run to evaluate adaptability.

    This idea that you can decide it all over an ice cream sundae a few weeks into it is total madness and absurdly naive. The game community has taught us that no matter what sex you are, don’t put too much stock in what the opposite sex says – watch what they do. And so don’t go making lifetime decisions until you’ve seen them do enough times to make an educated choice.

  78. “I realize Athol got married off a long-distance engagement and it’s worked out great, but I doubt he’d deny it’s a risky setup.”

    Three years total in separate countries, three months total together. About 240 letters between the two of us. The dopamine made me do it. :-)

    (It was madness)

  79. Octavia

    I have mixed feelings about this post and the thread that followed. Partially because I believe that had a woman written this, she would not have gotten the same level of support. The type of atmosphere created by some of the responders would have encouraged her to reassess because she’s with a good man. Her age would likely have been a factor in the discussion. Pictures/videos of hamsters might even have been posted. A few people would have talked about how feminism has caused women to have unreasonable expectations. Would those people have been right? I honestly don’t know…

  80. Octavia

    You view that breaking up with her will give you your best chance of living a happy, productive life. I hope it works out because it can be hard to find love, among other senses of fulfillment.

    At any rate, I wonder about your next steps. Have you defined what you consider to be living a happy, productive life? When you’re ready for another relationship, will you consider the time you took to arrive at this current understanding? If it takes another year or two, how many more “year or two” best chances do you think you have? If your next relationship becomes stagnant, what process could you take to revitalize it?

    Essentially, I’m asking: How will you recognize a woman worthy of your 100%? Maybe it wasn’t your intention. However, the way you wrote this post sounds like you became a bit complacent. That happens in many situations. You appear to have woken up one day, realized you weren’t happy and didn’t love her enough to work out the issues.

    Big Question: Do you think the overall reaction you’re receiving now would have been the same if this was a marriage you were ending?

  81. Teras,

    I know that feeling as well – it happens after college too, for those who go for higher education. As much as we romanticize “friends forever,” many good friends we have just don’t carry over into the next phase of life. We can be heartbroken over it, or we can accept it as part of life, make new friends in new places and make sure we catch a beer with them next time we’re in town.

    LP 999,

    Thanks for the well wishes.

  82. Brendan

    Octavia –

    Ending a marriage is something completely different entirely. In a marriage, the parties have made some sort of commitment to each other, however it was worded, and therefore there is much more of a burden (or should be) in terms of trying hard to see whether there is any chance to make it work than it is in a non-marital relationship. Getting divorced, although rather common, is one hell of a pain in the ass, much more so than breaking up a non-marital relationship, even if there are no kids. And if there are kids, well, then you’re never really divorced, even if you do divorce.

    A non-marital relationship which is just kind of “blah” is not a good thing to continue. Every relationship has ups and downs, but if you lose enthusiasm for the relationship while you are still in the pre-marital (pre-thinking-of-marital) stage, it’s a big red flag, in my opinion. If you see the relationship just not fitting in to where your life is now, it’s also a good idea not to continue it.

    It’s true that women are often criticized for similar choices in this area, and while I’ll agree that women also should exit relationships that are just “blah” for them, the situation of men and women is fundamentally different here for a couple of reasons. The first is that women are attracted to far fewer men than is the converse for men. This means that it will take longer for a woman to find another man she is attracted to than it will for a man, on average. Of course, not all the women the guy is attracted to will be attracted to him, but it’s a numbers game that tends to work in the favor of men once they get past a certain “hump” age in the late 20s. A man’s opportunity generally increases substantially as he ages to 30 and into the mid-late 30s, if he plays his cards right, and so leaving a “blah” relationship in his 20s is less of an opportunity cost loss for him that it would be for a woman at the same age. The second reason, of course, is that men don’t have the same biological clock in terms of having children — this means that men generally don’t feel under the same pressure to get hitched at the same time, meaning that they can kind of take their time through their 30s more comfortably in terms of relationships than many women seem to do. Some women, of course, *do* take their time in relationships in their 30s rather than getting stressed out about the clock, but quite a few of these at least state that they would be just as satisfied if nothing happened and they never had kids — which I think really represents a minority of women. For the rest, the pressure mounts, and so the opportunity cost of each foregone relationship gets higher, and remains so, for a woman past a certain age than for a man. The game changes for the sexes right around 30, for men who play their cards right in their 20s.

    So, while I do think that a woman who is unenthusiastic about a relationship shouldn’t continue it (unfair to both people, really), I also think that her opportunity cost per relationship is higher than it is for men, especially after 30, due to women’s higher degree of pickiness in general (less attracted to men in general (rather than specific men) than men are to women in general, really) as well as the clock.

  83. To the women, I say this. The more we “badger” men about LTRs, the less attractive the LTR option looks to them. Why should men even get into relationships if their every move will be questioned, and they get blamed no matter what, even before they get married? Lay off the few men left who are still willing to brave entering into relationships.

  84. Octavia

    Brendan,

    I don’t really know how Badger functioned in the relationship. I just read how he presented his circumstances. So, my following comments aren’t about how he conducted himself.

    I’ll agree for the sake of the discussion that women have a greater opportunity cost. (I keep some caveats in mind because each woman will choose what she thinks is the best way to achieve her goals.) Knowing this, it’s even more important for a man to end the relationship as quickly as he can, once he feels a woman isn’t worthy of his 100%. To do otherwise is completely disrespectful to a woman who a man supposedly says he loved/loves. It is unconscionable to make more memories with a woman, physically and mentally, even while planning to end the relationship. Those kinds of actions make it that much harder to discern who really is a good man. I find it particularly bothersome because I do take a while to open my heart, for various reasons. In most instances, if I’m going to get burned, I’d rather a month or two of my life go by than several years of it.

    I’m relatively new to the relationship blogs. I’ve seen who constitutes a good man to quite a few bloggers and those who comment on the sites. Many of the things I’m reading give me serious pause. I’ve been further fine-tuning whom I will let into my life. Now that I’m more focused on these matters, I am certain I am right to be quite guarded.

  85. @Brendan
    You have such a gift for boiling an issue down to its essential elements. You would make a great professor.

    @Hope
    Funny you should talk about badgering men into LTRs. Since men have come to dread them, and consider them very high maintenance, it seems to me that a very effective strategy for a woman would be to demonstrate how low maintenance she is. Not making demands, not asking for reassurance, not exhibiting jealousy, not criticizing. Just being a pleasure to hang out with, maintaining her independence, and generally acting amiable. Of course, only a subset of women meet this description – but for those women, separating themselves with these behaviors should be as compelling an argument as they are going to find.

  86. Hope gets it. Guys today grow up hearing about how they are such boors in relationships, such a drag, can’t read their girls’ signals and are bad when they break up. Women complain relationships aren’t working out, then up the ante instead of backing off on the pressure. And then women wonder why guys are loath to get into LTRs.

    I’ll tell you why – there’s no easy come, easy go for a guy. If he decides it’s not worth his time, he’s a bad man and he’ll be scolded and shamed no matter what the facts are (see: upthread). Even if she decides to break up with him, there’s a good chance she’ll blab all over town that it was because he was a substandard man who couldn’t handle her.

    A narcissistic player type won’t care – he’s accustomed to blocking out the judgments of others, or at least the negative ones. But for a regular guy, that’s a huge exit cost, one big enough to make a guy consider it at the beginning. Even if she’s totally nuts, it still hurts to have shit talked about you and have to defend yourself. Did anybody read that DateMeDC blog that Dalrock and Frost quoted? No guy of any character wants to wind up the object of a Kelly’s ire, crazy though she is. Oftentimes it’s a better move to not even try.

  87. Octavia

    Hope,

    For the purpose of clarification, are you saying someone was being badgered in this thread? If so, by whom?

  88. Badger was being badgered here, in my opinion.

    This was clearly not a decision he undertook lightly. He said specifically, “It was an incredibly difficult decision.” But his motives were questioned several times.

    I think in a lot of cases we women project ourselves as the woman being dumped in the scenario and get rather indignant. But having been through several scenarios where I was the one dumped, I must thank the guys in each case for being honest and blunt.

    So there’s no need to demand explanations from Badger. We are not the woman being dumped who needs that explanation.

  89. Butterfly Flower

    Funny you should talk about badgering men into LTRs. Since men have come to dread them, and consider them very high maintenance, it seems to me that a very effective strategy for a woman would be to demonstrate how low maintenance she is. Not making demands, not asking for reassurance, not exhibiting jealousy, not criticizing. Just being a pleasure to hang out with, maintaining her independence, and generally acting amiable. Of course, only a subset of women meet this description – but for those women, separating themselves with these behaviors should be as compelling an argument as they are going to find.

    Yeah, but Badger’s ex didn’t sound very high maintenance, that’s just it!

    He felt “meh” about her, so he left her.

    The girl didn’t do anything wrong, but Badger refuses to admit to that.

    I’m relatively new to the relationship blogs. I’ve seen who constitutes a good man to quite a few bloggers and those who comment on the sites. Many of the things I’m reading give me serious pause. I’ve been further fine-tuning whom I will let into my life. Now that I’m more focused on these matters, I am certain I am right to be quite guarded.

    I feel the same way. These relationship manosphere blogs make me frightened to talk to Betas. Also, most of the other women here seem to think it’s perfectly alright for Betas to treat good girls badly/agrees that all women are whores and should be treated as such. That’s the same sort of rationalization that leads to domestic abuse!

    In just two weeks, I’ve been called an evil brainwashed feminazi, told I’m selfish brat for wanting to become a stay at home mom, and had a Beta tell me my chastity and faithfulness are irrelevant traits.

    *sniffles*

    Octavia, is there any way we could talk? I was starting to think I was crazy because I was the only one who felt this way. I’m not a troll or whatever the other here people accuse me of being. [How can I even prove to them I'm not a troll? Scan my diary? I'm a real girl with thoughts and feelings] I don’t really trust the other female opinions here because they seem to think Betas are infallible divine beings.

    I’ve been thinking I might start my own blog. Maybe other women like us [smart good girls] can read it and talk about how Betas frequently hurt our feelings/treat us like crap/generally frighten us.

    Do Betas not want to date good girls?

    Although, I’m not the best at articulating. I write with too much emotion, so people then just assume it’s my personal feelings, and refuse to acknowledge my observations just might have touched upon the truth.

    …why do I feel so naive for believing the 1 Corinthians 13 definition of Love?

  90. Brendan

    He felt “meh” about her, so he left her.

    The girl didn’t do anything wrong, but Badger refuses to admit to that.

    But this is a good enough reason to end a relationship. A relationship which is “meh” already after even that relatively brief time (compared to a truly long-term deal which has ups and downs over the course of decades) is probably not one worth continuing — for either party. It’s not worth it. I agree with Octavia that these should be ended sooner rather than later, but I think in reality, it takes sometimes until later until the good/new feelings wear off and retreat into “meh”. In my own experience, once the limerance phase ends, you either have a soft landing onto a “still good, but not limerance” place, or a harder landing to a “meh” place. If it’s the latter, then it’s time to think about heading for the exits, even though neither has “done anything wrong”. A “meh” relationship is not going to be sustainable over the long term and will lead to resentment on both sides, and probably cheating as well.

  91. Butterfly Flower, most of us women here are happily married. We’re looking for ways to STAY happily married, and thus we take men’s grievances seriously, even if you think they’re absurd or wrong kinds of grievances. We don’t want to wake up one day and be left in the cold any more than you do, but we also don’t try to nag men we hardly know into bending to our will. The world is what it is. Accept it or screech to the wind.

    The only reason why I’m still responding to you is because you seem intelligent enough to maybe understand some of this. The Traditional Catholicism blog http://traditionalcatholicism.wordpress.com/ has truths just as harsh as ones here, but the hostess is female and Catholic, so she might be more sympathetic to your outcries. Or she might not. ;)

  92. Paige

    My opinion is that it is actually merciful to break up with someone when the spark is gone…assuming it is before marriage.

    I had a boyfriend who I was pretty sure was not very into me anymore but he would never break up because he was very dutiful. Eventually I did it…because I would rather not date and eventually marry someone who “loves me but isn’t in-love with me”.

    I am sure he would have been a faithful husband..but I want more than faithfulness. I want my husband to have that spark in his eye when he looks at me.

  93. Amazing. BF (I thought she was leaving anyway?) first chastises me for not listing any “grievances,” then I “refuse to admit” that there weren’t any. Logic was never a troll’s strength, though. I could go into more detail but I won’t out of fairness to my ex and to our privacy, and in any case we already know it doesn’t matter what the facts are, tomorrow there will be some new reason I’m an awful man.

    “I write with too much emotion, so people then just assume it’s my personal feelings, and refuse to acknowledge my observations just might have touched upon the truth.”

    This statement has a very inquisitional/Kafkaesque feel to it.

    She’s definitely plugged in to some poor information sources…apparently somebody told her the manosphere was a big beta party, but little did she know we’re all abusive boyfriends waiting to happen!

  94. Octavia

    Hope,

    When a learning opportunity presents itself, I tend to ask questions. Some might actually see that as being demanding. At the same time, one person’s demanding can be another person’s quest for understanding. Not everyone who asks a question has some motive to be cruel.

    I don’t dislike or favor Badger. So, I’m not invested in rubbing salt in any wounds that he has or soothing them. He’s certainly not forced to answer the questions, as he has shown he’s quite capable of choosing when and how he’ll respond.

    As for men fearing that women will badger them into relationships, that is a legitimate concern. My overall recommendation is to develop the skills to choose the women who are most compatible with their temperament. I believe there’s a comparable woman out there for each kind of man.

  95. Octavia

    Butterfly Flower,

    I think it’s valuable to read the differing opinions, even if you would not conduct yourself in the same manner. I believe that a good portion of the men and women are well-meaning in the advice they give. Read the relationship blogs to learn more about what to avoid and what to embrace. At the end of the day, do what works for you and above all, be honest with yourself and those you love.

    If you’d like to start your blog, go for it. Many have already contributed their thoughts to the public discussions. There will be more voices. Just remember that when you put your actions into a public venue, some people will ask tough questions. How you deal with it will reveal quite a bit about your character. :-)

    Now, how a person chooses to end a relationship can be quite informative. Remember that being a good person doesn’t mean that you can’t/won’t hurt others. Whether or not you have positive intentions isn’t always enough to sooth someone’s pain.

  96. Octavia

    Brendan,

    To me, ending a stagnant relationship—after making a serious effort to rekindle things—is the right step to take. If a guy can’t/won’t do that for me, I really am better off without him and vice versa.

  97. Octavia

    Badger,

    The way you presented your views was cause for some questions. You wrote about your ex who ultimately you stated was too dependent and uninteresting. You also mentioned the circumstances of a guy who was with a woman who was “wasted, smoking weed and hooking up…”

    For some people, being dependent and uninteresting can be turned around much more easily than the issues of the other woman. Actually, now that I think about it, being dependent and uninteresting is how some people characterize many Betas. There’s assistance for that. There’s even assistance for those who are like the other woman.

  98. These comments continue to prove my point – a man must go through an exhaustive process of justifying a breakup before women will absolve a man of presumptive moral fault.

    Read more carefully; I never said she was uninteresting.

  99. Octavia

    Badger,

    What did you want out of making this post? Perhaps that might help me better understand the way you’re reacting to some of the comments on here. You’re coming across as if you think some people are out to get you. Asking a question and expressing a view is not tantamount to an attack. However, depending on one’s personality, the kinds of questions and remarks I’m making might be difficult to process, given the emotions you appear to be experiencing.

    You might not be at the point where you can share this on the internet. You are lashing out at those who are not offering the kind of support you might be seeking. I don’t know you and I’m certainly not here to hurt you. I have no investment in that. I saw a human being put a situation out there and as a fellow human being I responded.

  100. Octavia

    This is why I defined the situation as the previous girlfriend becoming dependent and uninteresting. It’s basically my summary of the paragraph beginning with “We had an absolutely wonderful first eight months or so, we both thought we’d hit a home run.”

    1. Approximately the first 8 months were golden.
    2. That may have been due to both being “pretty interesting people….”
    3. Then, the difficulties started when each “gradually backed away from all of that with the pretext that [they] had each other and that was enough.”

    For those reasons, life was “not as interesting as [he] wanted…” She was a part of his life. He closed the relationship. I came to the conclusion that it ended because the strength of her depending on him, coupled with the lack of stimuli that was present in the first 8 months, was not in keeping with what he wanted for himself.

    Maybe the way I stated my earlier comment was too abstract and perhaps my clarification still is. Some might think I’m completely wrong. By all means, offer a different view.

  101. Brendan

    Octavia –

    Here is what he said:

    We packed more into that time than into the year and a half after that – because we made a classic LTR mistake: we gradually backed away from all of that with the pretext that we had each other and that was enough. And in my opinion, I backdoored myself into a codependence scenario – not only was my life not as interesting as I wanted, I was hesitant to push issues or (eventually) break up because I felt like I was all she had.

    How I read that, as a man, is that they became too comfortable with the relationship (as, frankly, often happens in LTRs) and too focused on each other at the same time. This is perhaps redeemable, but often not with the same person, at least in the context of a relationship of such a short duration.

    You would say he should have gently pushed her away from dependency and so on, but why? Again, this was not a marriage. If you need to do marriage-style relationship rehab 8 months in, it really isn’t worth it. You’re mismatched for whatever reason. Find someone else with whom you don’t need relationship rehab in less than a year.

  102. detinennui32

    This thread has taken on a life of its own.

    The big picture is that this is a commentary/illustration of a common theme in feminist thought, and even among most women: ” If a relationship ends, it is always presumptively the man’s fault. The man must have done something wrong, hurtful or offensive to cause the end of the relationship. The man is obviously hating on a sister.”

    We have to stand against this. It is wrong, it is false, it is toxic to male-female relationships, and it needs to be responded to and debunked every time people like Butterfly Flower espouse it.

    Sometimes mismatches happen. Sometimtes you don’t know it until several months to a year in. Sometimes you like her at first, then it’s “meh”. Sometimes you get to know each other and you find you want different things out of life. Sometimes everything’s great except that one thing but it’s a dealbreaker.

    A breakup does not mean the man was at fault. And it does not mean that the man is guilty until proven innocent.

    Here are some other lies that need to be debunked. I hope our intrepid bloghost will have the time, inclination and space to take them on:

    1. The man must always do whatever the woman tells him, or give her whatever she wants.
    2. Except for external genitalia, men and women are identical. Thought processes, behaviors and rationalizations are no exception.
    3. Women want nice guys.
    4. Women don’t ever want to be approached.
    5. Looks don’t matter.
    3.

  103. detinennui32

    Badger said:
    “Guys today grow up hearing about how they are such boors in relationships, such a drag, can’t read their girls’ signals and are bad when they break up. Women complain relationships aren’t working out, then up the ante instead of backing off on the pressure. And then women wonder why guys are loath to get into LTRs.

    I’ll tell you why – there’s no easy come, easy go for a guy. If he decides it’s not worth his time, he’s a bad man and he’ll be scolded and shamed no matter what the facts are (see: upthread). Even if she decides to break up with him, there’s a good chance she’ll blab all over town that it was because he was a substandard man who couldn’t handle her.”

    This is key: “There’s no easy come, easy go for a guy.”

    For many women, men can’t win no matter what they do or what they are.

    Consider the typical man, who has received absolutely no truthful or useful training or instruction on dating or the operation of the female mind. All he knows is that almost anything he sees with female genitalia is hot, hot, hot and he wants it — all of it. But he doesn’t know how to get even one of them.

    His mother is masculinized, his father feminized, both the products of political correctness and post-1960s popular feminism/ egalitarianism. Chances are he has not lived with a man in his household since he was a young boy, since his parents have been divorced a long time. Growing up, he saw his dad once or twice a month. If he did live in an intact home, his father has been thoroughly betaized from a life lived in the work world where beta attributes are necessary to navigate workplace politics and a gender integrated workplace, and subordinate himself to his superiors and clientele. Mom and Dad have a decent marriage, but have settled into the “partnership/roommate” roles. He’s harried and exhausted; she’s complaining, nagging, or yelling at him about this or that problem; he’s too tired to say anything about it most of the time. His mother administers most of the discipline and training.

    When his parents do talk to him about girls and sex, the advice he receives is “be nice and be yourself” to girls, and to “keep your d*ck” in your pants”. This is the entire sum and substance of his instruction about girls.

    He’s never been told that most women won’t find him at all attractive and that it’s nothing personal — it is simply evolutionary biology at work. He’s not been told that almost everything with female genitalia is attractive to him, but that he’s completely invisible to the vast majority of those women — again, simple biology. No one’s ever shown him or told him what IOIs or IODs are. He’s never figured out what he’s done to attract the few girls who did pay him any attention. He ‘s never been taught that women want to get the best quality man they can get. He’s not been shown what women really believe is a good quality man.

    He’s been lied to that men and women think, reason, process information, and emote in exactly the same manner. He’s told “I am woman, hear me roar”. He’s been lied to that the nice Christian girls he knows are different and they’ll like the “nice” guys. He’s been lied to that women deserve what they want when they want it all the time in relationships, and it’s his task to get it for them. He’s been lied to that his personal appearance is of paramount importance to women. He’s been lied to that a woman’s physical appearance and appeal should never matter to him at all in selecting a mate. He’s not been taught how to have self-confidence even in the face of repeated female rejection. He’s never been instructed how to walk away with dignity and self respect intact, and how not to take it personally. He sees other men having great success with women and he cannot to save his life figure out what they do that he’s not doing.

    He doesn’t know what a shit test is. He doesn’t know that dates test dates, girlfriends test boyfriends, and wives test husbands all the time. He doesn’t even know he’s already been tested and failed almost every one of them. He’s never been told about flaking, snowflaking, the rationalization hamster, the entitlement monkey, pedestalization, or how to handle emotional displays.

    He’s told that men and women are exactly the same. He’s told that women just wnat nice guys, just want to be treated nicely. So all he has to do is be nice to the women around him, and they will fall at his feet. Right?

    Wrong.

    Most men find most women somewhat attractive. But most women find only a few men even remotely attractive. Every time we approach, or even ask out someone we already know, we undertake all the risk. We risk rejection, public humiliation, shaming, embarrassment, and injured feelings. Many times we have to do all this in public. And we have to do it time and again, knowing that in the vast majority of approaches we’ll be summarily rejected out of hand. We also know that even if we do get a date or three, or an LTR, she can toss us aside for the flimsiest of reasons such as “I just don’t love you anymore” or “I don’t want to get serious” or “I just don’t like you that way. Let’s just be friends”. This after arranging for and paying for all the dates, spending money as a DHV, and doing our best to be “nice”.

    For most men who haven’t learned much game, it’s all touch and go on whether a woman will even give him the time of day. He tries to be nice. He orbits. He gets shot down time and again. He’s heard LJBF more times than he can remember.

    He’s approaching someone he finds attractive, but because he’s never been taught to read signals, never learned IOIs and IODs, he misreads her, and she dismisses him and breaks bad about him as a weirdo and a creep.

    If the man doesn’t have a lot of game, women don’t want him because he’s too nice or socially awkward, and therefore unattractive. If he does get some game and develop options, then he’s a heartless “player” and “pimp” who just wants to have indiscriminate sex.

    The beta learms a little game, and he gets a woman to go on a few dates or even an LTR, and he moves on because iti’s not working out, it must be because he’s a dishonest cad who was just “playing” her. He learns about IOIs and IODs, and gets a woman to go on a few dates, it must be because he’s manipulative and selfish.

    If he wants an LTR and she doesn’t, he’s being “dependent” and “needy”, she doesn’t have the tingles anymore, and she dumps him. But the breakup is his fault becuase he was too needy, and she’s just being “true to herself”. But if she wants an LTR and he doesn’t, she tests and pressures him repeatedly until he can’t take it anymore and breaks it off. But he’s the villain, because he’s not “mature enough” for her.

    If the LTR is still going, she’s not feeling the tingles anymore but stays with him, she shuts him off sexually. He doesn’t know why, so he tries to be nice. When that doesn’t work, she continues clamping shut, and the resentment continues until one of them breaks it off. She blames him for being too nice and that she’s “just not attracted to him anymore”.

  104. @yohami
    “Not sure how this works in other cultures, but being a badass indifferent detached steel impenetrable uncaring guy is really a requirement to survive this society and keep going. Then of course some will blame you for being like that, too. But at that point, who cares.”

    Our task is to resist BOTH the psychopathic training AND the doormat training.

  105. Jeffrey, yeah, Im talking about the detachment aspect alone. Pychos also manipulate, exploit, abuse, etc.

  106. imnobody

    I feel for this guy. The pain of broken heart is hardly bearable and hard to express with words. I was in the same situation for four years after the breakup, and it was my first real love (our relationship lasted six years and were about to get married). She dumped me and married other guy who she had just known.

    I guess the problem is that there is no silver bullet. Every man has to find a different solution. I tried everything: prayer, meditation, shrinks, antidepressants, lots of “break-up” books, travelling, fucking lots of other girls, other relationships, work, work and more work. For years I hurted and hurted and wondered and wondered what had happened.

    With time, the hurt decreased somewhat but I still felt something very sad and very angsty when I thought of her.

    For me, the healing came suddenly and unexpectedly. I stumbled upon her brother in a mall and he was in a “chatty mode”. I asked lots of questions about her, her current life, her husband, her marriage, the way she had known her husband, her relationship with her family.

    I discovered some things about her and our relationship that were really hard to swallow. It was very painful: I ended up crying like a baby in the middle of the mall. But two days afterwards, I was cured. It was as if I had never been in love with her . I felt a HUGE relief and the peace I had not had during four years. I cannot thank God enough that, in a city of four million people, I ended up running into her brother.

    [Amazing story, thanks for sharing.]

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  108. Jennifer

    Very good indeed.

    “As for dating itself, I don’t recommend a series of meaningless one-night stands/FWB/NSA, but there wouldn’t be anything wrong with a fling (particularly one that didn’t go all the way)”

    ..except for that.

  109. “(As if she’d give Matthew McConaughey the same treatment.)”

    This line made me laugh but to be honest, if Matthew McConaughey were my boyfriend, I would be on a steady diet of beer milkshakes so I could give him a dutch oven every morning. Something about that guy’s face makes me want to put my fist in it.

    You should do a post on celebrity crushes and what they say about you, I think it would be interesting to see what the commenters have to say.

  110. susanawalsh

    Haha, what is a Dutch oven?

    I’m with you on MM. I tend to fantasize putting my boot on his face, but same idea. He is one smarmy dude.

  111. Dutch Oven is when you fart in bed and by wafting the blankets just so, you force the flow of rancid air toward your partners face. Or more particularly, hold their head under the covers to enjoy the full effect.

  112. susanawalsh

    Ew, sorry I asked.

  113. Jamie,

    “You should do a post on celebrity crushes and what they say about you, I think it would be interesting to see what the commenters have to say.”

    Given your opening comment on the matter I’m not sure that’s a good idea!

  114. I’ve noticed Dutch oven cookware (enameled steel pots) being marketed as “French ovens” these days.

    I’ve also spotted “mixed greens” on a lot of menus as opposed to tossed salads.

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  121. Rob

    Great Post!

    There’s slot of comment below about Beta and being too “I love you” etc, and about blame.
    When a woman stops wanting sex it’s not about long hours at work – she’s not feeling attracted, she’s just not telling you.
    So – why?? What does she want?
    I believe in the beginning staying cool and Alpha is important to get her attracted etc, but in a LTR you have to switch to more at some point, open up and give yourself over or you will suffer a lack of communication & intimacy, and she will leave.
    On the one hand be extreme Alpha and be a man by 1) Being in control – of your life and relationship 2) Being Responsible – for yourself, and for her 3) Being decisive 4) Being aware – reading her emotions and understanding what she feels. In addition to you being Alpha, women want to feel special, and need to, so do the opposite side of the scale aswell: make sure she knows how special she is to you, how unique she is and that you’re lucky to have her. Keep the passion. Somebody who is strong and blown away by her will be her dream. She wants somebody to look up to, but that doesnt look down on her. When people really feel loved they want to do things for you, and it’s really hard to walk away from that appreciation.

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